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Message started by WebsterMark on 11/16/22 at 05:40:00

Title: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/22 at 05:40:00

My first thought is I hate the idea of a two year campaign. At some point, I can see myself imposing a 30 day ban on my reading routine just to get some fresh air because Trump bunches leftist panties like no one who has ever existed.

By the time the primary rolls around to Missouri, an eternity from now, I have no idea who will be in the mix. My intention right now is I’ll support someone other than Trump, but if Trump is on the final ballot two long freaking years from now, I’ll vote for him because Trump, in any form, is a better bet than any Democrat who follows their platform.

I’m not sure what DeSantis will do. He might decide to sit this one out but that means he’s Governor for 6 more years and since all politicians are narcissist, that’s a long time. And there’s a lot of others lining themselves up. Kristi Noem of South Dakota, Nikki Haley, former UM ambassador, Mike Pompeo former secy of state who’s lost a lot of weight working out which is a sure sign he’s gonna be on camera more.I assume a bunch others.

And the leftist controlled media are going to drive the January 6 narrative down our throats nonstop. It’s Trump’s biggest weakness, and it honestly is as it was the stupidest thing he ever did. Hard to say the dumbest move any President has ever made, but it’s top 10 for sure. All of a sudden it will be like Gettysburg and the capital police defended against the Republican mob who reached who reached their high-water mark and illustrated by some dude in the Senate wearing a horned hat. They’ll make it sound like it was a real war with mass casualties.

But, in other personal motorcycle news, I traded in my Suzuki V Strom 650 for a 2023 Yamaha XT 250. I want to play in the dirt a little bit but didn’t wanna get back with another motocross bike. I bought it Saturday, it was freezing cold here but I managed to ride it around for about 4 miles so it’s hard to tell much from that but all the reviews and what everybody I’ve spoken to says, I’ll loves this bike so we’ll see how it works out. That’ll be my detachment from the political storm that’s gonna go on for two years.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Serowbot on 11/16/22 at 06:51:21

Might as well just hand the re-election to Biden.
Thanks, Don

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/22 at 09:35:31

I’m guessing if I looked, you said the same thing when Trump won the nomination and went up against Hillary.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/16/22 at 10:11:38

I'll look into it in about 1.5 years. Otherwise I could care less.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/22 at 10:22:51

You won’t have a choice, it will like camp fire smoke.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Serowbot on 11/16/22 at 10:46:28

Web,... you sound conflicted.

You don't like him, but you'll vote for him.
I should let him go, quit obsessing, he's over... but he's running.

He won the Presidency by a negative 3M votes, impeached twice, lost the Senate and the Congress, lost to Biden by 6M votes,... lost these midterms, and is going to be indicted in a least 4 crimes, committed treason... and may be in jail.

I see what you like about him.
He's different.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/22 at 13:35:23

4452455840555843370 wrote:

I’m not conflicted. Conflicted means not know what to do but I just laid out what I’ll do.

…going to be indicted……. You’re funny. You’ve said that dozens of times.

Again, I would rather have someone else, but Trump is 10 times preferable to the current crop of traitorous, commie, American-hating leftist scum who’ll jump in the race after Puddinhead bails.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/16/22 at 14:31:51

You won’t have a choice, it will like camp fire smoke.

Maybe, but I don't use mainstream media for information so it's pretty easy to not see/hear what FOX/CNN/MSN/etc. has to say.

As I did last time, as Trump lays out policy, or his skewed ramblings of what policy could be, I will look at it. Everything else is just noise.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by MnSpring on 11/16/22 at 21:14:11

59797B736E791C0 wrote:

"... as Trump lays out policy,
or his skewed ramblings of what policy could be, ..."

It is, Clear, you don't think much of Trumps Policy/s.

Do you then think that Biden's, 'policy/s', are better or worse ?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 05:13:54

It is, Clear, you don't think much of Trumps Policy/s.

Incorrect. It is Clear I think Trump has skewed ramblings of what policy could be, and that is what I research instead of listening to "the news". I have already stated, multiple times, that typically Conservative policy is more efficient and economical.

To clarify: My statement assigns zero value to policy of any kind from any known human. However in context to this post and only this post with the exemption of all other posts, Trump and his vocabulary, in exclusivity with the exemption of all other vocabulary, is specifically applied to his, and only his, interpretation of policy - is by my interpretation, sometimes, but not every time, skewed rambling.

Trump does not do a good job of vocalizing policy accurately. Acknowledging poor vocalization is not equal to disagreeing with it. Just as acknowledging US law exists is not equal to agreeing with that law.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by MnSpring on 11/17/22 at 06:29:06

7757555D4057320 wrote:

" ... Trump does not do a good job of vocalizing policy accurately. Acknowledging poor vocalization is not equal to disagreeing with it. ... "

The question, rephrased to be understood by you.

Do you then think that Biden's, 'policy/s', are better or worse because he does a better, or worse job of vocalizing policy accurately ?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 08:23:40

"Do you then think that Biden's, 'policy/s', are better or worse because he does a better, or worse job of vocalizing policy accurately ?"

No. Talk is cheap as they say. "They" meaning all humans that say those words.

The efficiency of policy is not dependent on how well a human can speak of that policy. The efficiency of getting other humans to believe the policy is good, or bad, is however dependent on how well a human or group of humans can speak of that policy.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by MnSpring on 11/17/22 at 10:29:59

Ray Charles could See that you do not like Trump, his Policies, or the way he states them. Because you clearly inferred/implied, Trumps 'policy/s' are, "...skewed ramblings of what policy could be..."

7C5C5E564B5C390 wrote:

"... as Trump lays out policy, or his skewed ramblings of what policy could be ..."

Now you say:

6545474F5245200 wrote:

"... The efficiency of policy is not dependent on how well a human can speak of that policy. ..."

Most people would say:
Pick One !

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 11:18:23

Ray Charles could See that you do not like Trump, his Policies, or the way he states them. Because you clearly inferred/implied, Trumps 'policy/s' are, "...skewed ramblings of what policy could be..."

Incorrect. Helen Keller could see and hear that you simply want to claim I do not like Trump policy and are scavenging for any sentence you can find to reinforce that claim. I stated his words are skewed rambling and that is not a reflection of policy efficiency. I have already stated, multiple times, that typically Conservative policy is more efficient and economical but you selectively ignore that.
You won't accept the words I use here and instead resort to "inferred/implied", as usual, to create an argument that does not exist. I do not think Trump is good at stating what proposed actual policy is. So instead of using CNN/FOX/MSN/etc. I will read the actual policy proposals. So now any human's skewed rambling, to include Trump, is irrelevant to my research on how actual policy could be implemented. However Trump's skewed ramblings will be pertinent to finding what is being proposed, no matter how well, or poorly, he vocalizes.

"Most people would say:
Pick One !"

Most people would say "MnSpring use context!"

Again you cut my sentences to remove context. My first sentence is about looking at, by my interpretation, Trump's skewed ramblings of policy or what policy could be. This excludes other statements like his opinions about Russia or AOC or Golf.

The second sentence you reference is stating I do not think that how well a human says something about a policy is a direct reflection of that specific policy's efficiency. A policy can be very efficient and a human can very inefficiently, or incorrectly speak about said policy. Just as a human can incorrectly interpret a law and that does not change the actual law.

None of this assigns a value to policy so instead you have to "infer" things then refuse to acknowledge the actual real words posted on this forum. For instance I have repeatedly indicated that Conservative policy is more efficient and economical

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/17/22 at 11:36:21

Trump's skewed ramblings of policy or what policy could be

And I was confused by that, too.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 11:47:36

"And I was confused by that, too."

Opinion about verbiage is not equal to agreeing or disagreeing with what that verbiage is referencing.

Trump does not cohesively discuss policy, I consider his statements in regards to policy to mostly be skewed for effect and longer in duration than needed, thus the terms "skewed" and "rambling". He almost always speaks in sound bites and injects opinion when discussing policy. I don't care about his opinions when trying to figure out what his policy will actually do.

For instance his opinion that mostly drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me. How the immigration policy instructs CBP and ICE to conduct operations does mean something to me. So Trump can ramble on about immigrants all day long, none of that will impact the operational status of CBP or ICE by policy. Policy is what I care about. So I don't use mainstream media to know what policy is.

So while I use Trump's statements, which I interpret to typically be skewed rambling, to look up policy proposals, I do not think his statements are indicative of actual policy impact.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/17/22 at 13:56:44

instance his opinion that mostly drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me.

mostly drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border

Really? He actually Said that? I don't remember that. Reference To them being in the people crossing, yeah, but I don't think he said they were in the majority.

How the immigration policy instructs CBP and ICE to conduct operations does mean something to me.

Yeah, having them help With the invasion is a problem. I always thought they were supposed to catch them and send them back. But that would only be true if America was trying to protect its citizens..
I have a friend with a newborn in Washington. She is having a really bad time finding formula. I'm curious about how much of what she needs is sitting in a warehouse on the border.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 14:08:08

"Really? He actually Said that? I don't remember that. Reference To them being in the people crossing, yeah, but I don't think he said they were in the majority."

He didn't claim a majority:

"They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

I will amend my assessment for accuracy:

For instance his opinion that an unspecified percentage of drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me. How the immigration policy instructs CBP and ICE to conduct operations does mean something to me. So Trump can ramble on about immigrants all day long, none of that will impact the operational status of CBP or ICE by policy. Policy is what I care about. So I don't use mainstream media to know what policy is.

"I have a friend with a newborn in Washington. She is having a really bad time finding formula. I'm curious about how much of what she needs is sitting in a warehouse on the border."

I'd assume of that formula the amount she could have ever purchased in her lifetime would be none of it. There should of course be modifications of appropriated funds that allow for emergency distribution, but there would have to be some significant changes to law for that to happen at this time.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by zevenenergie on 11/17/22 at 14:10:23

let me ask you something.
Suppose the situation in the world gets even more spicy and the nuts hits the fan. Would you rather have a bunch of corrupt officials at the helm or someone who wants to win no matter what and never gives up?

You can put Trump away as an inept politician, but he is the man who can get the job done and, has stolen many hearts.

Have a look;
Over 50% of Americans vote for him. Despite all that he says and does and despite being blackened more than anyone in the history of man.
How is that possible? LOVE.

I have unwavering faith in Trump.

I see that the Democrats among us and I will not name names, are blinded by civilized behavior. And if I've learned anything in life, it's that civilized behavior is paper thin.

I do not, have faith in that.
Do You?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/17/22 at 14:14:23

"I see that the Democrats among us and I will not name names, are blinded by civilized behavior. And if I've learned anything in life, it's that civilized behavior is paper thin.

I don't have much faith in that.
Do You?"

No.

I also don't think over 50% of people will vote for Trump because of LOVE. That is also civilized behavior.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by zevenenergie on 11/17/22 at 14:22:31

I once saw a movie that was about authenticity. The movie was in black and white and when people became authentic, they got color. What's the name of that movie?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/17/22 at 14:26:57

assume of that formula the amount she could have ever purchased in her lifetime would be none of it.

Because none has been delivered there recently?
How do you conclude that?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Serowbot on 11/17/22 at 15:28:12

352A392A212A212A3D28262A4F0 wrote:

I once saw a movie that was about authenticity. The movie was in black and white and when people became authentic, they got color. What's the name of that movie?

Pleasantville (1998) ?

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/17/22 at 15:29:48

2A3526353E353E3522373935500 wrote:

I once saw a movie that was about authenticity. The movie was in black and white and when people became authentic, they got color. What's the name of that movie?

Pleasantville. I’ve always thought of it as a metaphor for Eve eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden. The fruit was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Once she ate the fruit, she was able to see good and evil. She saw the beauty of the world but she also saw the ugliness.

In the movie, when the cool kids essentially become what today we would call woke, they’re able to see the color and literally start have sex at lookout point. When a married woman awakens to the fact that her marriage is in a rut and she’s essentially a slave for her husband and children, she suddenly sees color. She has an affair with a painter and leaves her husband.

Once you become “woke” and see color everything is roses and unicorns. Of course we know that’s not true. They show the woman who leaves her husband for the painter at the end and there’s an odd scene with her, her husband and her lover on a bench with some puzzling looks. This is really the only reference to the fact that there are difficult consequences from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The not so subtle message that the paradise they were living in before was in fact a prison and it’s only through seeing everything that you were truly free. There’s certainly something to be said for that, but it’s not so simple.

In Christianity, whether you understand this or not, humans have limited vision. We cannot see the spiritual world that swirls on around us. The Bible tells stories of angels having wars occurring nearby they we’re not privy to. Angels complain to God and ask “what is man that you are so mindful of him, that you make him a little less than the angels and make the world his footstool.”

There’s a good argument to be made that when Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the second law of thermodynamics came into being. From that I mean the decay of all matter began. There’s an interesting question to be asked which is how much time elapsed from the end of Genesis 2 and the beginning of Genesis 3. At the end of chapter 2, everything is perfect. In the beginning of chapter 3 the serpent arrives to tempt Eve. How much time passed between those two events. A year, 10,000 years, 1 billion? It’s impossible to say. And Christianity if we say we believe in an everlasting afterlife, and time has no meaning. It’s only when the second law of thermodynamics comes into play, the things decay and there’s a very clear arrow of time. Once you have an arrow of time then you can measure time. But without that, there’s no such thing as time.

Wow, I think I just inadvertently paddled into some very deep water…..

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by zevenenergie on 11/18/22 at 02:12:03

So your not a dino? :-)

I like deep water.
I read with interest how you read the film.
Beautifully clear.

I've seen it more like people in Plesentvile come to color when they're not trying to please each other and be authentic.
You must indeed first see the situation, but especially how you maintain it yourself.

So they get color when they are angry and allow other feelings. And don't beat around the bush.
It's about being yourself. With an emphasis on being.

We have been cast out of paradise because we ate from the tree of knowledge.
We have shifted from being to thinking.

Jesus' main intention towards his disciples was suport their shift from identified thinking to enlightened consciousness.
This process had taken place in him and he wanted to share it.

For being is the springboard to enlightenment.
And being is the maximum we can do as human beings. The rest is grace.
Being authentic is therefore of utmost importance if you want to achieve enlightenment.Its the first step. Not judging is next, because if you judge you shoot right back into separation.

One can say what one wants, but Trump is someone who says what he thinks. Do you feel a bit where I want to go?

We are currently in the period described in the Vedas as the parivatan. Parivantan means shift from identified mind to awakened consciousness.

What's happening in the world right now is the "great shaking". We are being shaken.

The universe awakens and therefore we cannot lag behind, even if we wanted to.

There are forces at work that want to keep us asleep. Xi Jinping and the mega-corporations are the greatest danger.Thay are trying to manifest somting that is verry bad for us.

And there are forces working to wake us up. Trump has been asked to become Precident by a group of very powerful people who saw the current situation coming long in advance.

Because we are being silenced.
A system is being built where absolute power can be exercised over us. The chances of this happening are extremely high.

Trump was supposed to be president now. He whould have broken this system. But the elections have been stolen.
He has already shown us so much...

I don,t blame anyone, how could you know?
But an open realististic mind is worth gold, especially during this period.

I'm not saying Trump is a savior. We all play a part in the parivatan, after all it is about awakening enlightened consciousness. And everyone is in the right place for that, no matter what happens, it's inevitable.
But let's consciously work on it because, darn....

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/18/22 at 05:35:26

I have a busy morning but I’m gonna have to ponder that and get back to you.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/18/22 at 07:36:03

There are forces at work that want to keep us asleep. Xi Jinping and the mega-corporations are the greatest danger.Thay are trying to manifest somting that is verry bad for us.

And there are forces working to wake us up. Trump has been asked to become Precident by a group of very powerful people who saw the current situation coming long in advance.

Because we are being silenced.
A system is being built where absolute power can be exercised over us. The chances of this happening are extremely high.

I generally don’t believe in what some would call 3-D Chess. I don’t think a group of powerful and influential people can work together that closely long enough to formulate and enact complicated plans. I think powerful men act according to their best interest and if it coincides with the interests of others for a period of time, so be it. The thing about powerful men rise the positions of power and influence, is they all want to be the top dog. Now I will say that’s a big reason why many hated Donald Trump. He was the top dog, the alpha male, and they all knew it. No one wanted him around.

But talk of organized actions to keep the populace in line is a variation of the Sharpshooter Fallacy which is a man takes a rifle and aims generally at the side of a barn, shooting multiple rounds. When he’s all done, he takes a marker and circles the holes that are the closest together and claims he is a sharp shooter.

I think it’s easy to look at a lot of events occurring and try to see a pattern. But my general belief is there is no pattern. That’s not to say I don’t believe in divine intervention because I absolutely do. But I’m not sure I’m smart enough to recognize that.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/18/22 at 07:56:25

But talk of organized actions to keep the populace in line is a variation of the Sharpshooter Fallacy which is a man takes a rifle and aims generally at the side of a barn, shooting multiple rounds. When he’s all done, he takes a marker and circles the holes that are the closest together and claims he is a sharp shooter.

I agree.

Another issue with a lot of these New World Order style plans is that they require an infinite amount of money and power to be in action. So if an Organization has infinite money and infinite power, haven't they already won?

The response of course is always something ego-fulfilling like the NWO population control isn't successful because of people "like us" that keep up the fight.

Sure it is.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by MnSpring on 11/18/22 at 08:02:01

1131333B2631540 wrote:

"...For instance his opinion that mostly drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me. ..."

OR

5070727A6770150 wrote:

"... For instance his opinion that an unspecified percentage of drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me..."

Which is it ?

Why could you not just say what was actually said, instead of changing what is your, opinion "Mostly", to, "Unspecified".
Would that not be a, 'Adult', conservation ?

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best"
"They’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists"

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by MnSpring on 11/18/22 at 08:11:23

"... a group of very powerful people ..."

A friend of my enemy is my enemy.
A enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

Only can last so long.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Eegore on 11/18/22 at 08:20:27

"...For instance his opinion that mostly drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me. ..."

OR

Eegore wrote on Yesterday at 14:08:08:
"... For instance his opinion that an unspecified percentage of drug-dealers and rapists are coming across the border mean nothing to me..."

Which is it ?

The one I corrected if you use context and don't look for reasons to be argumentative. There is one statement that is then updated for accuracy, with a description and a quote as to why it was updated.

So I said this is a Red car.

JoG questions my assessment.

I update my assessment to say its an Orange car and include reference as to why I updated my opinion.

MnSpring asks "Which is it?"

"Why could you not just say what was actually said, instead of changing what is your, opinion "Mostly", to, "Unspecified".
Would that not be a, 'Adult', conservation ?"

I did provide a quote. It is an adult conversation, I could have just said "the POINT is..." and expected JoG to ignore my initial inaccurate assessment and try to act like I never used poor source material - my memory. Instead I updated it and provided a reference for why.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by Serowbot on 11/18/22 at 08:37:10

"...and some,.... I'm sure, are fine people"

Sounds a lot like Charlottesville but with a diminishing emphasis.
Many good people among the Racist Nazis..
A few good people among the masses of immigrant rapists and murderess ..
Exact opposite of reality...
...but it furthers a racist agenda.

Words matter.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/18/22 at 09:16:11

Yeah, words matter. You choose to ignore the ones that made that statement reasonable. Keep pretending.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/18/22 at 09:41:32

3D2B3C21392C213A4E0 wrote:

You’re ridiculous.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by pg on 11/18/22 at 13:49:49

594F58455D48455E2A0 wrote:

Here is what he really said:

REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

Best regards,

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/18/22 at 16:49:15

people that were very fine people on both sides

The only words lefties heard.
The only words they can admit he said.
But they Tell me how dishonest I am

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/19/22 at 04:20:08

2606040C1106630 wrote:

https://www.openmindmag.org/articles/planetary-intelligence

I confess I did not closely read the article above because it’s a little after 6am and I’m hungry but what I did read indicates there are some who want to band society completely together and mimic the social structure of an ant colony.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/22 at 05:17:50

Well, it Looks like they are getting there with a certain portion of the population.

Title: Re: I’ll start: Trump
Post by WebsterMark on 11/20/22 at 04:09:02

Well, Trump is back on Twitter. I hate and love Twitter at the same time.

It’s a great source for on the ground, happening at the moment, news. Wanna hear about the Colorado Springs shooting? Go to Twitter, but you have to recognize garbage when you see it and sort through the crap for valuable nuggets you won’t see elsewhere for days or ever. For example, the main theme on Twitter right now is this Colorado Springs shooting was an anti-gay guy who went in and killed a bunch of queers as fast as he could. Nobody knows that right now. If you remember the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando was portrayed as the same thing. However, that wasn’t the truth. The guy didn’t even know it was a gay club. He was originally going to Disney Springs but saw security and went elsewhere until he happened to see this place. But, you can read and see videos posted of people there on the ground and the first hand experience. That’s valuable because you don’t have an intermediary like a reporter from a media outlet who will always put their twist on it whether they do it on purpose or subconsciously.

What does this have to do with a thread on Trump? The value of Trump on Twitter is that you read exactly what he’s thinking. That’s valuable. Everybody knows the stuff on Biden’s account is not written by him. Puddinhead can’t find his way out of a room, but you know Trump types his Twitter entries. Sometimes, during a speech, Tweets would pop up by him but I’m sure he had them pre-written because nobody would be that honest and some would say stupid.

My favorite Trump tweet is when he said “CocaCola is still at me. But that’s OK I still drink that garbage“.
Come on now, you can’t get any better than that.