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Message started by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 04:19:49

Title: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 04:19:49

Hi guys. I finally got the 1986 back together after starter gear failure.
. The clutch basket was removed and all disks cleaned, the engine was flushed twice before firing up with new oil.

Now when I go to shift I get a grind so the clutch isn't disengaging. It shifts fine when the bike isnt running obviously.

I followed the manual when putting everything back together and removed any Freeplay in the clutch lever on the case.

I torqued the spring bolts to spec. Are they meant to still have any spring range left or are they meant to bolt all the way down and then torque like I did ?

It was shifting great before I pulled it down.

I torqued the springs down to spec and made sure to slide the pushrod in . Is it meant to be pushed in with any force ?

I'll be pulling it back apart to check tomorrow. The other thing I thought is that maybe because it was cleaned very well it isn't coated in oil yet, not sure if that will make a difference

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/05/22 at 12:34:48

4E6C6271736C746671030 wrote:

Now when I go to shift I get a grind so the clutch isn't engaging. It shifts fine when the bike isnt running obviously.

Please clarify, you pull in the clutch lever with the engine running and you try to put it in gear but it only grinds?

But it shifts fine with the engine off?

If so, the clutch is not disengaging.

Where is the lever on the case when you lift it by hand compared to the marks behind the lever?

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 14:59:25

Ill check the lever now. I adjusted it to be tighter.

I mentioned it shifting when not running just to clarify that the linkages and everything are working fine so it is a clutch issue.

I mixed up some of the clutch plates when cleaning them. Is there a particular plate that needs to go first?

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 15:06:18

465542435C5157555E01300 wrote:

Where is the lever on the case when you lift it by hand compared to the marks behind the lever?

the lever is between the 2 marks when resting and above the top mark when pulled.

I have ordered new plates and springs but they will be a while getting here.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/05/22 at 16:20:32

1C3E3023213E263423510 wrote:

I mixed up some of the clutch plates when cleaning them. Is there a particular plate that needs to go first?

there's only 1 plate that's different and that goes on last.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/05/22 at 16:22:52

72505E4D4F50485A4D3F0 wrote:

[quote author=465542435C5157555E01300 link=1664968789/0#1 date=1664998488]

Where is the lever on the case when you lift it by hand compared to the marks behind the lever?

the lever is between the 2 marks when resting and above the top mark when pulled.

[/quote]

where? in the middle? or towards the top?

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 16:41:22

In the middle.

It was also grinding before I tightened it. At that point it was sitting lower.

I just realized there is on larger diameter friction disk. There is a chance this was not installed at the start of the stack. As a matter of fact Im not sure there was actually a larger one in the stack. I'll pull it apart and check but I believe they were all the same size.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 17:44:40

It will roll fine whilst in gear, clutch depressed and not running

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/05/22 at 23:52:48

I pulled it all apart, made sure the bigger disk was just after the large spring washers, reinstalled it all and still getting the same grinding, what's worse is the large locking bolt stripped when torquing it down, I flipped it over and was able to lock it into place but now Ill need one of those too.
I have not yet changed the pads and steel plates but I have ordered them along with new thrust washers and springs.

There is no movement in the clutch plates when it's torqued down and the clutch lever is firm.

IM really at loss here

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/08/22 at 04:01:08

After ordering from 2 separate sellers only to be told after paying they there is no stock, I found new springs, washers and plates. So hopefully next week I can try again with a new clutch build and the problem will be gone.
If not I don't know what to do or what it could be.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/08/22 at 08:32:55

0C2E2033312E362433410 wrote:

It will roll fine whilst in gear, clutch depressed and not running

I'd like it better if that wasn't true.
Why would you Say that JoG?
Well, because it sounds like the clutch basket and all of its bits and pieces are disengaged completely.
So what is allowing the rotation of the crankshaft to continue to spin the input to the transmission If the clutch is disengaged?
What oil are you running?
I very often just don't Use the clutch from second on up and back down, the clutch, because of the big jump in gear ratios between first and second, is used there.
Have you tried making the change Quickly, just as soon as the lever is back a quarter inch, slap the gas shut and grab a gear?
Have you checked to see how far you have to pull the lever, engine off,in first gear, light pressure on the bars,trying to roll it, how far does the lever have to be pulled to disengage the clutch?

As a former warehouse manager I learned that when ordering stuff the question isn't
How much is this part?
It's
What is the Price And Availability?
It's pretty crappy of people to not tell you they don't have it in stock, but most people will sell it to you and then try to get it to ship it to you.
I've even had them lie to me. I've been buying things for a customer who Needs the product, make a few calls, someone quote me a price and tell me I should have it in three days. So I would tell my customer we otta have it in three days. I got chewed out several times before I figured out what was happening and stopped giving my customer a date. Unless it was someone I did a lot of business with and trusted them to tell me the truth about when I would get it.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/22 at 11:28:51

66444A595B445C4E592B0 wrote:

Look for Dowel Pins, full hard, 6mm or 1/4", about 2" long or 50mm.
The rods are 44, 45 and 46mm long so just them to the right length and grind the end (I put a full radius on them so they fit the pocket of the cam)

Someone said use drill rod, but the HS drill I used wore wear it rides in the hole, but the dowel pins didn't.

GD, the oem supplier says $6 each? used to be $2
You can buy a 50 pack of the dowels for $22 or so.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/08/22 at 16:25:55

Sorry for the noob question but how do I know which size pins i need ? Or do I just try them all

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/09/22 at 20:14:36

Hey guys.

So I started it in neutral and gently put it into first. It did grind a little but the bike moved and was able to shift into second. Going back to first there was more grinding so I shut it off and pushed it home in neutral. Opened up and inspected the clutch again.

I will add that the previous owner had 2 small coins with holes in them used as makeshift washers or spacers installed under each of the 4 clutch springs. I removed them this time. I adjusted to free play in the clutch to be about a quarter inch. Now it is giving a grind when I try to push it into gear, but when in gear, the rear wheel moves for a moment but then stops and spins freely. The same for all gears. Could the coins have been installed to combat the wear on the clutch and now removing them has mad it not work properly?

When I was torquing down the clutch locking bolt on the shaft, the shaft did rotate clockwise a few times and made a twangy sound that did worry me, but it would always turn the rear wheel when I was rotating the shaft.

I am using a 15w40 full synthetic oil. Looks like ill also be needing a new clutch cable as it is freying at the handle >:(

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/22 at 22:21:16

6C4E4053514E564453210 wrote:

Sorry for the noob question but how do I know which size pins i need ? Or do I just try them all

I pick the one that sticks out of the pack about 12 to 12.5mm

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/22 at 22:25:54

0D2F2132302F372532400 wrote:

I will add that the previous owner had 2 small coins with holes in them used as makeshift washers or spacers installed under each of the 4 clutch springs. I removed them this time. I adjusted to free play in the clutch to be about a quarter inch. Now it is giving a grind when I try to push it into gear, but when in gear, the rear wheel moves for a moment but then stops and spins freely. The same for all gears. Could the coins have been installed to combat the wear on the clutch and now removing them has mad it not work properly?

The coins were probably put in to prevent slipping.

If you do this you need to check if the springs are bottoming out which could break the throwout cam.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/22 at 22:31:48

56747A696B746C7E691B0 wrote:

When I was torquing down the clutch locking bolt on the shaft, the shaft did rotate clockwise a few times and made a twangy sound that did worry me, but it would always turn the rear wheel when I was rotating the shaft.

I hope you have a bike made after '95, the twangy sound was probably the starter torque limiter on the other side. When you turn the engine backwards the starter clutch engages and tries to turn the starter backwards. This takes a lot of torque and early model bike w/out the limiter break teeth or bust out the mounting bosses for the gears.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/09/22 at 23:54:20

786B7C7D626F696B603F0E0 wrote:

The coins were probably put in to prevent slipping.

If you do this you need to check if the springs are bottoming out which could break the throwout cam.

What do you mean by bottoming out? Compressing all the way when installed? I removed the coins for now.

In regards to the bike year. I have an 87 but have 2004 model starter gears

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/10/22 at 07:37:27

0426283B39263E2C3B490 wrote:

[quote author=786B7C7D626F696B603F0E0 link=1664968789/15#15 date=1665379554] The coins were probably put in to prevent slipping.

If you do this you need to check if the springs are bottoming out which could break the throwout cam.

What do you mean by bottoming out? Compressing all the way when installed? I removed the coins for now.

In regards to the bike year. I have an 87 but have 2004 model starter gears
[/quote]
When you pull in the clutch the springs will be compressed more.
If they bottomed out then, they'll overstress the throwout cam and snap it in 2.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by TheSneeze on 10/10/22 at 07:54:50

If you do ever break the throw out cam, I have made replacements that are much stronger. PM me if interested.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/10/22 at 16:08:31

How would I be able to tell if it's bottoming out? What is just be noticeable is the handle?

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/10/22 at 16:15:45

Currently I'm just able to shift into gear without pulling the lever and then there's no movement. I think that's because I removed the coins. Hoping the new plates and springs solve all of these issues. Some of the friction plates are nearly flat.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/10/22 at 16:52:50

66444A595B445C4E592B0 wrote:

How would I be able to tell if it's bottoming out? What is just be noticeable is the handle?

sudden stiffness in the lever.

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/10/22 at 17:32:43

Ok. Theres no more resistance than usual

Title: Re: Grinding gears when shifting after reassembly.
Post by Moarpower on 10/11/22 at 19:31:10

Clutch plates arrived. Waiting on springs and thrust washers.