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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1660073862 Message started by Kirurgi on 08/09/22 at 12:37:42 |
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Title: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/09/22 at 12:37:42 So I'm building my bike and now I have couple problems. First of all the bike won't turn over. Nothing clicks or happens when I try to start it. I measured wirings and i get good readings from starter relay +/- and from starter + to relay - but nothing from starter +/ground (frame). Start button and kill switch works also when measured. I have neutral light ok and even jumped side stand switch but nothing. Where to next? Second problem is clutch. I changed clutch plates and now when everything is back on their places and oil is in I can change gears without pushing clutch lever and when lever is pulled and any gear is in it won't let the tyre roll freely. What is wrong? Thanks for your help. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by verslagen1 on 08/09/22 at 12:47:16 no clicks, then it's the safeties. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/09/22 at 20:25:09 Thanks. Need to find a way to close them one by one. Any ideas for clutch? When I put all together outer or inner hub did not rotate by hand. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by verslagen1 on 08/09/22 at 20:42:43 Follow the volts. push the button, should get 12v or so on 1 of the wires leading to the clutch safety. a manual will help find which wire is which. pull the decomp controller, 1 wire should light up when the button is pushed. and of course push the button and 1 wire should light up on the starter relay. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/16/22 at 07:49:48 "Second problem is clutch. I changed clutch plates and now when everything is back on their places and oil is in I can change gears without pushing clutch lever and when lever is pulled and any gear is in it won't let the tyre roll freely. What is wrong?" So I rolled the bike out from garage. I can change gears without pulling the clutch lever. On neutral it rolls good but when I hit 1st gear in and pull the clutch lever it won"t disengage clutch plates and let me roll. When cover is Off and I try to rotater outer or inner hub of the clutch they don't rotate. Its stuck. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by buster6315 on 08/16/22 at 08:00:25 Sounds like the clutch plates are stuck together, or the mechanism that disengages the clutch is not assembled properly. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/16/22 at 08:26:46 Well need to open it again. I assembled it 2 times allready by the book / videos. Still same problem. I can pull the lever and it feels stiff / tight but it does not disengage plates. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/22 at 08:46:09 1A382324233638510 wrote:
by hand, lift the lever on the case. where is it with regards to the marks on the case? Quote:
This is normal. without pushing clutch throwout rod in (which is pretty hard to do) inner and outer are stuck together. If you remove the spider, then they'll turn. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/16/22 at 22:31:40 Here is the pics. Fist is at rest. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/16/22 at 22:32:12 Second when lifted with finger. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/16/22 at 22:33:43 Third from inside. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/17/22 at 01:54:55 Clutch worked fine before I opened it and changed plates. :o |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/17/22 at 03:20:26 Your second picture shows the release lever is too high when lifted with your finger. The lever needs to be right between the two marks. As the clutch wears, the lever gets lower. You replaced all the worn clutch parts. That will cause the lever to get higher. You probably need a longer pushrod (they come in three different lengths). Of course, this assumes that the clutch is assembled correctly. It would help if you could post some photos of how you have assembled your clutch. Take some pictures of how you stacked up the plates, how you installed the wave washer assembly, how you have the thrust washers and sleeve installed, etc. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/17/22 at 04:35:18 I will take new photos after I open it again. This is how i assembled it (pic). Seat washer and then that curved washer (outer upper ring side thowards plates). Then the fat friction plate so its first plate from outside. Then the rest friction and driven 1 by 1. I will get back to this asap I get it open again. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/18/22 at 03:33:56 Here is the pushrod. 45mm. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/18/22 at 03:35:28 Here is full pack as i opened it. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/18/22 at 10:09:21 Flat washer then wave washer outer part is elevated from flat. Then fat and different friction from others. Then 1 by 1 Steel and friction. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:35:08 Kirurgi, you have BIG problems with the assembly. Your Hub (4) is situated way too far inboard. It should be flush with the edges of the tangs on the basket. See area circled in green. Also, you appear to be missing two steel plates. See are circled in yellow. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:36:20 This shows the normal orientation of the hub. See how it's flush with the edge of the basket tangs. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:40:47 I'm thinkin the only way that hub could be so far inboard is you are missing either the inner washer (2) or the outer washer (7). This shows the inner washer. Did you install the inner washer (2)? It goes right up against the input bearing inner race. Then the spacer (3) goes on the input shaft. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:42:26 Then the basket goes over the spacer, and the outer washer (7) gets installed. This shows the outer washer in place against the basket. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:51:53 The two washers, (2) & (7), along with the spacer (3) determine the position of the hub. Your hub is too far inboard so I'm gonna guess you are missing one or both of the washers. Regarding the missing steel plates, you should have five steel driven plates (12) and six fiber drive plates (8 & 9). One fiber plate is different. It has a larger bore to accommodate the wave washer assembly. This shows the correct stack. On the far left is the aluminum pressure disk (13), then a fiber plate (8), then a steel plate (12), then a fiber (8), then a steel (12), then a fiber (8), then a steel (12), then a fiber (8), then a steel (12), then a fiber (8), then a steel (12), then the special fiber (9), then the aluminum hub flange. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:54:16 The wave washer (11) is nested within the outermost fiber plate (9) as shown here. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:55:18 And the wave washer seat (10) goes on top of the wave washer. The wave washer seat is flat, the wave washer is beveled. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/18/22 at 23:58:20 This sketch shows how the wave washer assembly is stacked up. It's important that the flat seat (10) goes between the hub flange and the wave washer. It prevents the edge of the hard steel wave washer from digging into the soft aluminum flange. The sketch doesn't show the fiber friction plate that surrounds the wave washer assembly. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/19/22 at 00:01:32 Why is there no oil on any of your components? Everything under your clutch cover is bone dry. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/19/22 at 02:05:08 Thank you for helping. All the Steel plates are there but they are not seen in that pic. I will open whole pack today. Washers are there but I will do it again with help of these pics. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/19/22 at 02:09:40 Bike has been under chopping for two years. Had No time to continue this project until now. :'( plates etc have been soaked in oil and oil have been in but bike have not moves in two years. Maybe soon with your help. Thanks. ;D |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/20/22 at 14:57:50 It seems like the washer (7) has dropped off from its place when I installed the pack last time. All the others were installed probelly. Now it looks right. Snapped second pressure plate bolt when torqued 11nm. Ffs. ;D bike is -99 and bolts can't handle torque anymore so need to replace them also. Thanks for the help. Ps. Still No spark. Need to reinstall wiring again. Can't find fault and gonna remove all safety switches to findout if they are the problem. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/20/22 at 18:00:09 Your hub still looks out-of-position, too far inboard. It should be flush. Verify that the washers are the correct thickness. They should be .078" (about 2mm). The washer with a 44mm OD goes against the input shaft ball bearing. The washer with a 40mm OD goes between the basket and hub. Can you post a picture of the back side of your hub, and one of the thrust face & bushing in the basket? |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by CannabisChemist850 on 08/22/22 at 08:56:51 Kirurgi don't get too caught up in the lack of spark until you get the clutch figured out! If the clutch is not engaging as you state, the bike should NOT start. Fix the clutch issue (DragBikeMike is a GOD, your posts are soo helpful!) and then you may find the bike will spark. But I would absolutely not go ripping out the wiring until you know it's not caused by the faulty clutch. Don't want to create a problem that really isn't there in the first place. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/23/22 at 02:17:48 Checked those 2 washers. They were in places you told and 2mm thick. 44mm OD in the bottom against ballbearings and 40mm OD bottom oh bascket. Here is pic of the hub. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/23/22 at 02:18:15 Other side. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/23/22 at 02:20:38 Basket. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/23/22 at 02:21:46 And saft. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:11:22 Thanks for the pics Kirurgi. So, the part of the hub boss that I'm most curious about is its height. It should be 11.3mm. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:16:34 When things are right, your hub flange should be even with the tangs on the basket. Yours is not flush. It looks to be about 1mm too far in. The height of the hub boss, along with the input shaft spacers and the two washers sets the position of the hub flange. I can see from your picture that the face of your hub boss has some scoring. There should be no relative motion between the face on the hub boss and the washer, so there should be no scoring. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:18:08 The scoring doesn't look bad at all, and I doubt that it's the scource of your problem, but you should still measure the height of the hub boss to verify that it's 11.3mm. When the hub makes up to the washer, input shaft spacer, and inner washer, it sets up the journal for the clutch basket bronze bushing, and also sets up the clutch basket thrust clearance. See how the clutch basket will be nested between the two washers. Note how the spacer serves as a nice journal for the bronze bushing. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:26:36 OK, somehow I got this system hung up. Computers :'( Let's see if it will take the picture in this reply. See how the washers and spacer nest the clutch basket? |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:30:41 When the hub is installed, the hub washers, and spacer all get pinched together. Since the hub is splined to the input shaft, the hub, washers, spacer and input shaft all turn together. There should be no relative motion between the hub boss and the adjacent washer. See, all sandwiched together. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:39:39 The basket must turn independent of the hub. The basket must turn freely on the input shaft spacer (journal), and not be pinched between the washers. If you install the input shaft washers, spacer, clutch basket and clutch hub and nut, but leave the clutch plates and pressure disk out, you can verify that the basket turns free. Put it together without the clutch plates and pressure disk. Tighten the nut and verify that your clutch basket turns free. If your primary drive gear is still on the crankshaft, just make sure that the hub and transmission input shaft will turn free while the basket is stationary. It's the same thing. Like this. If you set up a dial indicator to read on the basket in the location circled in green, you can verify basket thrust clearance. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:43:05 I checked my spare engine and I got .008" to .010". It's pretty loose. You do not want the basket pinched between the washers. It must be free to rotate and move in & out a bit. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 16:49:11 Your hub sitting farther in than normal should be addressed. The plates, pressure disk, and release plate are all gonna follow that hub. Having it sit 1mm farther in than normal may drive you nuts when you try to get the release mechanism set up correctly. As you can see, the fiber & steel plates have absolutely no influence on the position of the hub. The position of the bub is controlled by the hub boss, the input shaft spacer, and the thrust washers. Also note that there is visual evidence of possible rubbing between the oil pump drive gear and the case. It's easy to get the drive gear on backwards. You might wanna check that. There's also a drive pin that's super easy to lose. If you put the gear on backwards the pin falls out and can get lost in the crankcase. Possible rubbing around the case. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/23/22 at 17:08:54 The picture you provided indicates your pump drive gear is on correctly. You might wanna verify that the drive pin is in place and properly captured by the gear. This shows the drive gear installed backwards. The pin (circled in green) is no longer captured by the gear. The pin will fall out and voila, no more oil pressure. Good chance it could run through the gear mesh too. Double whammy bad. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/25/22 at 12:37:54 I measured the hub boss and got 11+mm (don't have precise caliper). Just lightly above 11mm. Need to get my new pressure disc so I can get back to this. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by DragBikeMike on 08/25/22 at 17:45:46 Sounds like the height of your hub is good enough. Regarding your caliper, it's just as accurate as mine. It can measure down to a tolerance of 0.05mm. Are you familiar with the vernier. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by Kirurgi on 08/25/22 at 19:59:08 Ye. Same as yours. I broke earlier the "brake" from mine and it always moved a little. Got a new one today so now its easier and More accurate. ;D |
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Title: Re: Bike won't turn over and clutch does not work. Post by TheSneeze on 08/25/22 at 20:52:08 I ran a metrology lab in a machine shop for a living. Quality Assurance. Accuracy is NEVER over rated! Our measuring tools evolved all the way up to a CMM arm. Fun stuff! |
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