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Message started by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/04/22 at 12:12:58

Title: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/04/22 at 12:12:58

Not sure if first message got through; sorry if this is a repeat. To sum up: 86 savage will only crank one rotation and then stops. Starter limiter has been retrofitted and outer case modified to suit as per your instructions. Battery is fully charged. Decompression solinoid activates and rocker arm opens valve. All connections are tight. The bike is totally original with about 10000 miles. Do the starter motors themselves get weak? Does the decompressor solinoid only activate for a set time only once per starter button activation?

Title: Starter #1
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/04/22 at 09:42:39

Thank-you for this web site; marvellous and helpful! I am repairing a friend's 86 savage. He had taken it apart, reassembled it and got scared when "it made a loud noise"! I've been repairing motorcycles for over 50 years, predominantly British , Italian ,spanish and older Japanese; this 86 Suzuki is a new bike to me! As you may have guessed, I am having trouble with the device known as the electric starter! Upon your recommendations, I upgraded the system by fitting a starter limiter gear; I modified the original outer case cover to suit. I also set up the starter decompression solinoid according to your recommendations. Upon reassembly, the bike started right up. Now, it does not. Upon pushing the starter button, the decompression solinoid clicks, I can see the exhaust valve rocker arm go down with the valve cover off. With a fully charged battery, the engine will only turn one revolution, it will not spin the 500 rpm suggested. I have tried boosting the battery; no change in starter performance. Do these starter motors get weak? Yes, the connections are tight! The bike has less than 10000 miles on it and is completely original.

Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know...
Post by verslagen1 on 08/04/22 at 10:08:34

Well done so far!
Yes the starter motor can fail. It's a small powerful motor that runs a lot of amps and can get hot if used too long. Or the brushes do get worn out.
If it gets too hot, the magnets can debond from the case and it won't turn.
you can easily pull the starter from the case and try it separately.

Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know...
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/22 at 10:16:54

From your post I have to believe you completely understand that a battery can show 12+ volts and have no ability to produce the amps needed. But that is the first thing my head went to. If it's trying to push against what has to be zero compression,,
You got it in neutral?
Clutch in, does it roll easy in gear?
How old is that battery?
I'm really fond of my $20.00 battery tester from Harbor Freight.

The ground on the right rear of the engine, clean and tight?
If you try to start it and touch that ground, if it's hot,it's resistive.

Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know...
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/22 at 10:19:10

And Welcome!
I forgot,

Title: Re: Starter
Post by verslagen1 on 08/04/22 at 12:56:32

don't worry... be happy :)

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/04/22 at 17:26:02

Am I correct to assume that the decompression solinoid activates for only one revolution of the crank thereby allowing the starter to gain enough momentum to continue cranking?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/05/22 at 09:52:37

Yeah, pretty much, I'm thinking it's a timer circuit in the board that fires the decomp.
You Can manually activate the decomp, some people have removed the decomp solenoid and they manually make the decompression happen by pushing on a lever.

If you were to get it in gear and roll the motor to get the piston at close to BDC of the end of the power stroke, the starter would just be pushing through the exhaust stroke followed immediately by the intake stroke,, maybe you would learn Something that would help us
Sorry for your troubles, but, that is kinda the reason for this place to exist.

Upon reassembly, the bike started right up.

You didn't get to hear that loud noise and it started after that scary loud noise?

Maybe get ahold of the decomp lever and hold the exhaust valve open and see if the starter can handle that?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/05/22 at 21:23:27

I will try your suggestions. I disassembled the starter, no sign of burn, loose magnet ,bad bearings. Brushes measure about 10.5 mm; worn but serviceable I think. I haven't looked up the specifications yet. I cleaned and reassembled the starter but there was no change in its performance; one turn of the crank and then it stalls out. Can there be issues with the solenoid itself?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/05/22 at 22:52:46

I'd jumper twelve volts straight to the starter. If it spins it over, then you can dig deeper.If you can get it past compression and on the down stroke, you will be giving it a chance to get spinning good before it hits compression.
I can't wrap my head around a solenoid that pulls the contacts together and carries the current to spin the thing One Turn and then drop out.

Just to be certain I understand how you are describing the situation, you heard it run, it ran with no drama or excitement, and after that, no joy?
Or did you start it and it made a loud noise and after that, it would not start?

IDK why it would or if it can, but I would want to get something, maybe a stiff wire with a hook, on the decomp solenoid cable and see if the thing stops turning the starter at the same time the decomp solenoid times out. If you feel the cable relax at the moment that starter stops, it would be interesting.

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/06/22 at 09:36:36

I will give a quick recap to try and cover all bases: non running bike brought to me because the owner heard a noise when starter engaged. I installed starter limiter and modified outer case as per recommendations. After assembly, the bike started well . I started the bike five or six times. To my ear, the starter seemed to spin very slow; certainly not 500 rpm! On try number seven, the bike would only turn one revolution before stalling out; acting very much like a weak battery. Is it possible I did something wrong when I installed the limiter?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/06/22 at 11:14:04

Just tried jumping the starter directly,as suggested; the starter spins the engine over even through the compression stroke! It does sound slow to me but it does work! I am now suspicious of power loss through the solenoid...does this seem feasible?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by verslagen1 on 08/06/22 at 11:22:51

if you started the bike 5 or 6 times w/out charging the battery then that's the cause.

Title: Re: Starter
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/06/22 at 16:18:07

IDK how old the battery was before you did that, but it's a Lot older now.
This is where the battery tester can come in handy.
If you charge it and it doesn't take a good amount of time before it's showing the 12+ a healthy one does, but you can hear it slowing down, sometimes the you can use the tester to hit it with some real quick loads,on off on off quick, till it recovers to around ten volts, charge it, torture it,I'm really not sure exactly why it helps sometimes, the article I read said something about it knocking some kinda oxide or something off the plates. I've rejuvenated a few that way. It's not a solution that works in five minutes. Takes a few
Charge,/ Challenge cycles and sometimes it's just time for a battery.

Title: Re: Starter
Post by verslagen1 on 08/06/22 at 18:36:22

check the water too.

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/08/22 at 08:59:20

I notice that headlight and tail light stay on while trying to start. Is this normal? Should I be fitting a toggle switch on top of the headlight to reduce the load on the battery during start-up?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by verslagen1 on 08/08/22 at 09:41:51

it's normal for an 86
they didn't add a cutout circuit til after 2004

Title: Re: Starter
Post by Ann-Marie.Scott on 08/08/22 at 17:23:43

Would you view the modification as worth while? If it was your bike would you modify the lighting system?

Title: Re: Starter
Post by verslagen1 on 08/08/22 at 17:46:12

45405524262424160 wrote:

Would you view the modification as worth while? If it was your bike would you modify the lighting system?

the only time it's worth while would be when you should be repairing it.

Title: Re: Starter
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/08/22 at 17:51:59

Until you have it running you should not fix another problem.
You don't need to risk creating one. Start messing around with the wiring and you can't start it. Where is the problem? Is it the problem that you have been wrestling?
Or did you accidentally create one somewhere else? Don't even ask me how I learned that.