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Message started by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 09:26:11

Title: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 09:26:11

I've had my 96 Savage up and running since May of this year and am very happy with it so far. One thing I have noticed though, is that the motor seems to use a bit of oil. Is this common for these bikes? The bike has just a bit over 15,000 miles on it, doesn't seem to smoke (no oily residue in the muffler, spark plug looks good, and there are no visible oil leaks that I can see. ?????? Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/22/22 at 11:49:42

Unrelated to oil, but it's Time to have a look at the cam chain tensioner.

Yeah, oil gets away from them, not from burning it, but from the action of that Fat piston churning the air inside the crankcase. There is a hose running from the Right Front corner of the head. The more uphill you can make it slope as it goes to the rear will give oil in the column of air blowing through that tube, it's really pulsed,back and forth,
Anyway, at higher RPM oil gets away, so check that out.
I used Rotella, Real Dinosaur bones oil, not synthetic, I noticed oil leaving faster as the mileage on that oil increased.
IOW, if I changed oil today and went for a ride and ran The Snot out of it, and after 200 miles of just railing on it, and it needed a half pint,I could do that same run when I had run 3,000 miles and was getting ready to change the oil and it would need more than that half pint of oil to get it back to the full mark.
I didn't use how many miles I had on it to tell me to change oil.
I watched the consumption rate.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by LANCER on 07/22/22 at 11:58:03

You did not say how much oil was being used. It just holds 2 quarts so it’s always a good idea the check the level before riding. The bike needs to be on level ground and vertical when checking, putting a 2x4 or brick under the side stand works to safely do this. If you can see the oil level in the sight glass you are good.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 12:05:13

Good to know. I've got probably close to 1,200 miles on the bike so far this season and I've had to top the oil up twice so far. That breather hose you're speaking of is the one that runs from the head cover back to the air box?
I wonder if some type of PCV valve in that line would help? Any one experiment with trying that? I'm also using the Shell Rotella 15/40 dino in my Savage. Guess I just need to start keeping a better eye on the oil level. Thanks for the reply. Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 12:16:46

Lancer: I've probably added over a pint to bring the oil level up to the full level in the site glass so far. Yesterday I went out for a 140 mile ride and was bucking a 25mph head wind about half of that ride. I was operating the bike in the 3,500 to 4,000 rpm range most of the time. Over winter I converted to rear chain drive (among other things) and 4,000 rpm the way I have it geared is 65 mph. Decided to check the oil level today and there was no oil visible in the site glass. Do you think that adding a PCV in the head cover breather line would help any? Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/22/22 at 13:15:03

Since I never even questioned how Exactly does that thing work, just that it was something that a car needs. So I went and looked it up.
I don't understand what I know.. So I'm continuing to follow this thread. I'm looking forward to learn about this.

https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5233/~/what-does-the-pcv-valve-do%3F#:~:text= The PCV valve serves a few purposes%3A,less%2C the valve opens more to... More

I tried, I really tried

https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5233/~/what-does-the-pcv-valve-do%3F#:~:text= The PCV valve serves a few purposes%3A,less%2C the valve opens more to... More

http://https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5233/~/what-does-the-pcv-valve-do%3F#:~:text= The PCV valve serves a few purposes%3A,less%2C the valve opens more to... More

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 13:52:49

Very interesting. From what I'm reading there it may help with the oil being sucked out of the motor via the oil/vapor mist that must be coming from the vented head cover on the Savage. Only down side on the Savage is there is no oil return line for the captured oil to run backinto the crankcase. That breather hose just goes to the air box. Guess I'll just have to keep a closer eye on the oil level in the Savage than I do on my other bikes (singles & twins). Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by pg on 07/22/22 at 14:29:35

Mine uses it's fair share of oil as well and a number of different factors can affect oil usage. As it relates to the S40 it is my belief that these all contribute, in any order. The head plug can leak, rotella as good as it is can and does shear. Probably beyond the tensile strength of the rings, that is JMHO.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/22/22 at 15:02:14

And I thought mine was using oil. I have been adding 6 to 8 ounces every 1100 to 1500 miles. Yours seems to be using waaaaaay more oil than mine.

If you are running the stock air box and a paper filter element, the oil consumption will increase if the filter is dirty. A dirty filter reduces the air pressure in the void between the filter and carburetor and tends to suck the oil through the crankcase vent. Check your airbox drain. How much oil comes out when you remove the plug?

You mentioned "PCV" valve. I don't think a PCV valve would work too good on a Savage. A PCV is intended to tie the crankcase directly to the intake manifold. It's a controlled method to constantly pull fresh air into the crankcase and evacuate the crankcase vapors into the intake to be consumed in the combustion chamber. I think it would be hard to set one up on a single cylinder engine.

This post installed a Hayden KrankVent. It's a similar concept but retains the circulation system originally intended for the Savage (i.e. return vapors upstream of the carb). It's working good for me and as I previously mentioned it's been consuming about 6 to 8 ounces every 1100 to 1500 miles.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1655271553/0

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/22/22 at 16:17:54

405E50424D4D5E5A5659370 wrote:

True, no dedicated oil return line, but by routing that vent tube so it is blowing uphill,then it has a chance to hit the wall and drain downhill to the motor.

If you ever have to pull it apart you'll see what looks like a chunk of a potscrubber it blows through. It never occurred to me before, but I'm thinking a small piece of a wound stainless potscrubber inserted into the vent tube at the end highest point to give the oil vapor a place to land Might be a decent idea.

I'll wait for a Guru to grade that idea.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/22/22 at 16:54:55

Yep, I had the head/cam cover off last winter to fix the usual leaking head bolt plug. I did notice Suzuki's version of an "oil separator". Very crude, and apparently not very effective.
I'm also not a huge fan of the oil sight glass method of checking the oil level. One has to be down on your hands and knees and have a good lite to shine on the site glass to see the oil level properly. :-(
Maybe a bit more of the pot scrubber oil seperator material in the vent hose would slow the oil loss down a bit. Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 07/22/22 at 21:47:50

5B444245585F6E5E6E56444803310 wrote:

There's no uphill in the vent line, it's all downhill to the airbox.
You'd have add a significant length of line to go uphill long enough to do anything.
You'd need to add a catch can (see dbm link)
If you want to recycle this blow out oil, the breather line has to go to the bottom to suck out the accumulation.

Check the top of the piston, a lot of carbon ends up there.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/23/22 at 03:52:19

Okay, I thought when I was in the area I was able to get it to point up for a few inches, by up I mean slightly unlevel,but it has been a coupla years since I've been near one.
Stuffing a chunk of scrubby pad in won't help if it's uphill to get it to run back into the head.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/23/22 at 07:02:29

Mike,
I'm running a K&N filter in the stock air box with a modified air box cover (material removed over the filter area), so I'm getting plenty of air to the motor (carb re-jetted to allow for the increased air flow). I guess I'll see how much room there is under the tank and see if I can make an upward loop in the breather hose before it runs back down to the air box. I may not be loosing as much oil as I thought due to the diffulicty of checking the oil level in that dang site glass. What a PITA reading that thing!! :-( Carry on!! wiguzziman
5F59562A282F2B1B0 wrote:

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 07/23/22 at 07:42:56

6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:

Okay, I thought when I was in the area I was able to get it to point up for a few inches, by up I mean slightly unlevel, but it has been a coupla years since I've been near one.
Stuffing a chunk of scrubby pad in won't help if it's uphill to get it to run back into the head.

yeah, it points up for an inch or 2 and is slightly unlevel, but then it hits the bottom of the tank and has to go back down. But that's not enough time for droplets of oil to collect while the air flowing thru it a half liter at a time thru a half inch hose. No time to cool or let gravity take effect.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/23/22 at 08:42:37

I had one of those filters. If you look up
Tuned intake it'll help. I modified the box to increase the volume of air between the
filter and carburetor. The general idea I got out of it was that the volume between filter and carburetor needs to be equal or greater than the volume of the cylinder. I had the box in my hands so that I could get the dremel in and seeing the innards let me cut out a bit of plastic wall
IDK how they built it. It ran well but I don't know what changes I made that helped me because I didn't test,reassemble, test,disassemble,make a change, test reassemble
Etcetera Etcetera, Etcetera...
It's good to keep your old stock filter, so you have one to use while the K&N dries.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/23/22 at 13:39:08

Mike,
You mentioned checking the air box drain tube to see how much oil had collected in the tube. NONE; some P.O. must have taken the plug out and either lost it or just didn't replace it! It was just venting to atmosphere. I put a plug in the drin hose and will run it for a while and then check it to see if any oil's collecting in the drain tube. Carry on!! wiguzziman
1B1D126E6C6B6F5F0 wrote:

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/23/22 at 16:29:13

Without the plug in the airbox drain you have been pulling the worst kind of crud directly into your engine. All the trash, grit, sand, dirt, pebbles, water, etc. directly off your rear wheel. That probably didn't do much good.

The significance of checking how much oil accumulates relates to diagnosis of your problem. If you don't accumulate oil in the airbox, then it is most likely not an engine breather issue. The oil only has three ways to exit the engine: leakage, breather system, consumption.

Leakage will be obvious. Puddles under the bike, goo all over the engine, etc.

Breather system should manifest in large amounts of oil accumulating in the bottom of the airbox.

Consumption is a bit harder to nail down. It either leaks down the valve stems/guides, or gets pulled past the rings.

I would run it with the plug installed for a good long time. Start with the oil level normal. When you have to add oil check your air box drain. That way you know how much you used and can compare that to how much has accumulated in the airbox.

As far as checking oil level goes, I always use a small level across my starter to get the bike exactly level. I also always check it when the bike is upright on my poor man's stand (an elaborate system of 2x4s).

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by Ruttly on 07/23/22 at 17:50:05

DBM, I like that level on the starter , I think a tiny bubble level stuck there or elsewhere could make a handy permanent light weight addition , Amazon will have one

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by Ruttly on 07/23/22 at 18:29:20

Yeah found some cool stick on & magnetic bubble levels on amazon. An interesting addition to the bike. Glance at the level & glance at oil level sight glass , super simple , Tanx

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/24/22 at 09:38:49

I put a bubble level on the transmission on the backhoe since no level place exists to check fluids. They don't last all that long, but it's worth the scrape it off,slap a new one on cost. Not sure what it is that kills them, heat or vibration or a combination, but the bubble got bigger and bigger until I just couldn't use it.
But I did buy cheap ones,,

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by Ruttly on 07/24/22 at 14:32:00

Mine are a pack of 4 and I have some 3M 2 way tape ta stick it on. It’s more to make people think , Why ? A Tiltometer for those afraid to lean , Lmmfao

Yup that’s it a Tiltometer ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 07/24/22 at 18:35:04

0C0A05797B7C78480 wrote:

As far as checking oil level goes, I always use a small level across my starter to get the bike exactly level. I also always check it when the bike is upright on my poor man's stand (an elaborate system of 2x4s).

Your level of precision always amazes me. 8-)

But compare that to putting a stack of wood under the kickstand 1" less than vertical.
Or the amount of wood (brick, whatever) that's relatively stable.
The difference in oil level really isn't that much compared to risk of pulling the bike down on top of you.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/25/22 at 02:24:10

I agree Versy, you don't want to tip the bike over. I never have liked putting a block of wood under the kickstand. That's why I always park my jalopy on this simple stand constructed from scrap lumber. The tie downs permit accurate leveling of the bike. It works good, is safe, and was essentially free. Makes my life a whole bunch easier.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/25/22 at 10:09:07

I'd like a side view of that. It's exacting, and totally safe. The bike is not coming down.
I know it's not A lot, but I carried a Coupla two stroke oil containers in the fanny pack I had strapped onto the handle bars. If I was out, running it at fifty and up for extended periods, enough to make a gas stop, check the oil was part of a pit stop.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/26/22 at 15:54:45

It's a very simple stand. You just roll the bike on and fasten it with standard motorcycle tie down straps. I love the thing.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/26/22 at 15:56:49

An old chunk of 2 x 6 with a few chunks of 2 x 4. A couple of old hurricane ties. A few screws and a little wood glue. Two eye bolts. Ready to rock-n-roll.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/26/22 at 15:58:45

To make it a bit more luxurious I stacked a few sheets of old rubber material onto the bottom, but used it for many years with just bare wood.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/26/22 at 16:01:59

Best to glue the joints and use plenty of wood screws to keep things tight. Over time, it tends to loosen up.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/26/22 at 16:06:55

It's not like I'm anal retentive over the oil level. Typically, I just want to know that it's in the bullseye. In the past, I never had to add oil. But recently, it started to use a bit. That's when I got serious with the level checks. I wanted to know how much it was using. Only way to do that is make sure it's in the exact same orientation each time you add oil. Otherwise, it's a crap shoot.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/27/22 at 11:12:06

Your gizmo is right clever, solid answer, if I get able to build a bike, I might build something like that.
Watching a YouTube some months ago I saw a guy who did woodwork all the time and he had been totally sold on TiteBond. It's pretty easy to believe that if a company creates a product and they have
The Original
TiteBond II
TiteBond III
thinking TiteBond III must surely be the best option. According to that guy, it's a
NotSoFast moment.

Something to be aware of

Utter failure of Titebond III
davidmeiland | Posted in General Discussion on January 16, 2006 02:30am
I glued up 13 deck post wraps out of 1x clear Western red cedar. 2 pcs 3/4 x 3-9/16 x 36, 2 pieces 3/4 x 5-1/16 x 36, glued up into square ‘tubes’ that slide down around 4×4 posts. Four biscuits per glueline. All the cedar came to me KD and has been stored dry in the barn for 6 months. It measured an average of about 14% MC right before glue-up, which was done indoors in heated space. The materials all stayed indoors overnight before and after being glued up. The glue was bought brand new at my lumber yard the day before the job.

As far as the workmanship goes, I’ve done hundreds and hundreds of glue-ups in my life, everything from a chess board I made in junior high woodshop to large and complex cabinets that took three guys to get together. All of the joints in this case were clean, correctly clamped, the right amount of glue and the right amount of squeeze-out. Everything looked perfect when I sanded it out.

After just a few days outdoors some of the joints are completely open, and others are on their way. About half still seem perfectly tight. I’m part way thru fabricating and installing the rail sections between the posts. I’m obviously going to have to take the whole thing back apart, salvage what lumber I can, buy a fair amount of new stuff, and start over. Gorilla Glue this time

There’s nothing on the Titebond web site about not using this glue with cedar. Perhaps I got a bad batch or maybe it was frozen on the way to the lumberyard.

Hope that helps someone avoid a

WTF Is THIS?
Moment

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by buster6315 on 07/27/22 at 11:38:34

For years I used Elmers wood glue for my woodworking projects. (pvc?) I came across Titebond and after trying it on a miter joint, I was very impressed with it's holding power. Of course I never used it where moisture was present. Where looks is not a major concern, I prefer to use mechanical fasteners along with adhesives for best long term holding power.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by zipidachimp on 07/27/22 at 13:33:14

to check oil level, sit in a chair, one hand on the bike holding it level, other hand holding a mirror at sight glass level. Saves my knees!
Cheers! 8-)

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/27/22 at 14:44:24

I will have to try your mirror trick. My right knee doesn't much care for concrete floors anymore. I jammed it up last fall starting my 78 Yamaha SR500. It's healed up well enough that I can start the SR500, but doesn't like hard surfaces even with a cushion between it and that floor. Guess those 60+ years of working on motorcycles kneeling on concret floors came home to roost. :-( Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by zipidachimp on 07/27/22 at 18:58:40

Just make sure the front wheel is in a chock!
Needed this as my knees are 78 years old!
Cheers! 8-)

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by wiguzziman on 07/27/22 at 19:20:42

Yeah, I always block the front wheel with a chunk of 2 x 2 before I put blocks under the kick stand to level the bike up to check the oil in the site glass. Ya got me; my knees are ONLY 77 years old! :-) Carry on!! wiguzziman

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by TheSneeze on 07/27/22 at 21:41:38

I feel like a youngster at 64! My knees are not agreeing with me, though...

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by Ruttly on 07/27/22 at 22:42:44

Your definitely tuned in to the old farts channel ! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by Tocsik on 07/29/22 at 12:33:35

342B2D2A3730013101392B276C5E0 wrote:

...
I know it's not A lot, but I carried a Coupla two stroke oil containers in the fanny pack I had strapped onto the handle bars. If I was out, running it at fifty and up for extended periods, enough to make a gas stop, check the oil was part of a pit stop.

I do something similar. I use an empty Seafoam can to carry extra oil. It pours smooth enough you don't actually need a funnel. I keep a cloth rag wrapped around the can held in place with an IV tourniquet.

And my knees are only 58 but still don't like hard surfaces. I've tried a telescoping mirror to see the oil level while sitting on the seat without luck. I always check mine inside the garage, too, where the floor slopes toward the rear. And I've got the bigger rear tire. So I wonder how those two factors either make the oil less reliable or cancel each other out? :-?

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by buster6315 on 07/29/22 at 13:41:16

I put a block of wood under the kickstand, then lock the front brake with some type of tie around the lever, and then carefully stand the bike up to vertical and look at the sight glass. :) Of course with my low mile bike, oil usage is negligible.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by och on 07/29/22 at 19:37:36

I bought my 2013 S40 new in 2015, but I haven't been riding it a lot, it's only got 4k miles on the clock, the last 1k this year alone as I've been riding it a lot more lately. It doesn't use any oil, but I've noticed the oil looks kind of nasty every time I change it. I did the first oil change at 1,000 miles, replacing whatever factory oil with Suzuki synthetic, then another oil change at 2,500 miles, also using Suzuki synthetic, and today at 4,000 miles - this time I used Liqui Moly synthetic motorcycle oil.

Even with these short intervals I notice the drained oil is dark, and not perfectly uniform consistency. For instance when i drain the oil from my car, even after 5k miles it is perfectly consistent and less dark.

It this caused by the lack of PCV?

https://youtu.be/sAHuBJ6tOUc

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 07/29/22 at 20:04:59

717D761E0 wrote:

That's a question for DBM
He's got a home made PCV

Mike, what's your oil look like?

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/30/22 at 19:35:40

My oil has never accumulated water or exhibited sludge, except when I had the transmission failure. That generated a lot of ferrous particles that accumulated on the magnets in my alternator rotor, and formed a magnetic sludge.

My oil has never been anything but a uniform consistency when I drain it. That includes observations on a box-stock engine, engine with an open breather system, and my current setup using the Hayden KrankVent. However, with the KrankVent, the oil won't drain unless I remove the fill plug. That's because the engine is no longer vented. The KrankVent only let's air & vapors out, it doesn't let air in.

The way the bike was delivered from Suzuki, it had the equivalent of the old-style automotive breather shown in the video (with the exception that the air would be filtered). The way the thing comes from the factory, air is continuously exchanging back & forth from the atmosphere outside the crankcase to the atmosphere inside the crankcase. With a stock airbox and paper filter, I suspect it might start to pull a vacuum in the crankcase because of the low pressure developed in the airbox, but that would probably only occur at very wide throttle openings.

The setup I am currently running uses a check valve to circumvent the air exchange. It only allows air to escape, and that results in a very small vacuum developed in the crankcase. It's not really the same as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV).

The first iterations of PCV pulled fresh air into the engine through a filter, and sucked air out of the engine through the PCV valve. The PCV valve was connected to the intake manifold, so manifold vacuum was always pulling air out of the engine (except at WOT). I'm not entirely sure but I believe modern FI cars no longer pull fresh air in. I think the newer systems just pull vapors out and I suspect the newer engines probably develop a decent vacuum in the crankcase. That might be an interesting test for me to perform on one of my cars.

My oil does get black pretty quick. OCH, keep in mind that the oil in your car's engine is providing lubrication only for the engine. It doesn't bathe a wet clutch (with all the associated wear products), or lubricate heavily loaded gears (i.e. transmission). It also probably doesn't get subjected to the extreme temperatures encountered in an air-cooled engine.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by och on 07/30/22 at 20:26:06

Mike, thank you for the great explanation. My personal opinion on PCV, it certainly does some good, but it also mists oil all over the intake manifolds, and combined with EGR + direct injection equals heavy carbon build up on the intake, ports, and valves. Also, PCV systems on modern turbo engines are no longer just simple PCV valves, for instance my 2012 X5 has what they call a "CCV" system, which consists of several pipes and valves, its about $200 in parts and 2-3 hour labor to replace when the pipes crack. And many people add catch cans to the system, which makes it yet that much more complicated.

Very good point on the oil being darker since it also lubricates the transmission.

With your KrankVent system, do you get any performance gains? Can you share the thread with info on this setup?

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/31/22 at 10:17:04

Och,

. I did the first oil change at 1,000 miles, replacing whatever factory oil with Suzuki synthetic, then another oil change at 2,500 miles, also using Suzuki synthetic, and today at 4,000 miles - this time I used Liqui Moly synthetic motorcycle oil.

I'm not understanding why nobody has said anything about this yet. These dinosaurs have a valve train that really appreciates some of the things they don't put in the most scientific new oils and the clutch absolutely detests anything that has Friction Modifiers.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/31/22 at 19:31:59

OCH, if you go back to page 1 of this thread, and check reply #8, there is a link to my post on the Hayden KrankVent setup. It has some interesting vids of the tests I performed. I have not realized any improvement in acceleration or fuel economy, but it stopped all of the little oil weeps I used to have.

I also did a post about one year ago on the KrankVent. That post provides a lot of detail on the device. It's pretty simple. It uses a Harley umbrella valve. I can dig that one up if you are interested.

Title: Re: Oil consumption
Post by och on 08/01/22 at 03:32:16

40464935373034040 wrote:

Thank you, I found the link. I have a few oil sips that I would love to get rid of, Ill consider doing it perhaps in the winter.