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Message started by justin_o_guy2 on 05/28/22 at 12:20:03

Title: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/28/22 at 12:20:03

CHARLESTON, W.Va. - A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.
Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.
The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured. "Instead of running from the threat, she engaged with the threat and saved several lives last night," Chief of Detectives Tony Hazelett told news outlets Thursday.
Butler was at the apartment complex earlier in the evening in a vehicle and had been warned to slow down because children were playing, police said. They said he left, but returned later, parked in front of the complex and began firing.
After fatally shooting Butler, the woman waited along with several witnesses for police to arrive, and all have cooperated with the investigation, authorities said. Hazelett said no charges would be filed against the woman.
Somebody buy that lady a cocktail. The TV report can be found here:
https://www.wsaz.com/2022/05/26/person-detained-after-shots-fired-call/

People wearing seat belts die,sometimes. Wearing a helmet doesn't mean you can't die. Life ain't fair,but being prepared is better than not. I'm not going to debate the value or effectiveness of removing guns from the People, because it simply can't be allowed to happen. I would love to see where the lefty answers have been successful.

Look at the poverty and violence where lefties are running things.
You people should not need anyone to argue with you. You should change everything you believe, based on the results of seeing what you support be put into action. Total FAILURE, in Every way. You lefties ARE the cancer on society.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Serowbot on 05/28/22 at 13:05:55

746B6D6A7770417141796B672C1E0 wrote:

You lefties ARE the cancer on society.

Very nice

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/28/22 at 14:03:35

Sometimes truth is not sweet.
You and your kind have been able to force the adults to accept your screwed up ideas as
The Answer.
We have had to watch the failures and count the bodies. It's time to stop being nice. You and your ideas are the reason so many people are DEAD. Now, sit down, shut UP, and allow Us to show you how it works. Yeah, at first, it's gonna suck,but once the idiots realize that the penalty for their behavior is a bullet,they will back off.

The first week or so when the governor of Louisiana called on the people to arm themselves against the carjackers was bloody. Then, they decided it was not a really fun game any more.
Was it over? No, but it was no longer rampant.
Nobody is pretending that crazy people won't still do crazy things, but it Will change,
And IF they change their Target, okay, society can beef up and protect the new targets.

Better than seeing innocent children murdered.

Ohh,wait, maybe not, in the eyes of the people who believe killing the unborn is just Awwright.

You don't have kids. Where do you get the right to tell parents how they can protect their children?

I have a number for a really good oncologist.
Message me.
Maybe we can get you to a place where you are not killing people.

Your ways are death.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/28/22 at 14:55:16

But the argument is this lady wouldn't have had to shoot the man with the AR if the man with the AR could not get an AR.

Unrealistic, but that's the argument.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/28/22 at 15:16:54

Unrealistic, but that's the argument

Yeah,, and it's really time for the proponents of what is unrealistic to stop pretending they are pushing for a solution that IS realistic.

They ACT like those of us who knew from the beginning that a FUKKING SIGN was Not going to stop someone who was INTENT ON MASS MURDER from going in.

Pretending that there is a big enough problem that WE Simply Must Do SOMETHING, just like Bammycare, the system was So Broken, forget that it was intentional, and I have run that past doctors,and they agree with me,
No, A crisis doesn't mean you get to decide the solution. I've seen that. I haven't seen it fail to be a monumental screw up.b You lefties need to sit this one out.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/28/22 at 15:30:45

0D2D2F273A2D480 wrote:

"But the argument ... ... if the man with the AR could not get an AR.

Yep, Get rid of those RED cars.

So now he can't get a AR lookalike.
He gets a Shotgun !!!!!!!!
And then Sprays buckshot.
(Odds go WAY UP, someone is going to get hit)

Wait, I Know the answer.

BAN SHOTGUNS !!!!!!
(or Blue Cars)

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/28/22 at 19:46:51

352A2C2B3631003000382A266D5F0 wrote:

"... fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd ..."

Does not say how many shots he took.
And don’t know how many shots he took,
before being shot.

So let’s just pick a number and say 5.
That would be 5, projectiles,
shot, SPRAY & PRAY style.

(Ya Know those AR style guns are SO EVAL)

Golly Gee Wally,
One shot, from a Single Shot Shotgun,
Could have launched, 25 +,
LARGER projectiles.

What do you think the odds would have been that someone was hit ?

Now, was it the ‘GASP’. Gun,
Or was it the DFI FDS ???????????
(Who never got a, ‘Hey You Showed Up’, Trophy)

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/28/22 at 23:55:23

If shotguns were used more often for mass shooting then people would be calling to ban them. As long as AR is the primary choice it will be the primary target.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/29/22 at 09:29:16

4C6C6E667B6C090 wrote:

"... As long as AR is the primary choice it will be the primary target.

Yep and as soon as the AR like firearms are BANNED,
Shotguns will be soon to follow !

Who was that that said,
and how many years ago was it said ?

You give up a freedom to own a AR type rifle,
for the sake of security from mass shootings,
(by a total, mentally disturbed FDS DFI)
you will have neither

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/29/22 at 10:44:28

Well, one local genius seems to not want to see teachers armed, because the bad guys would just go elsewhere.

Maybe he just doesn't understand that when the AR is outlawed, murderers will choose a different gun.

How about just admit that society has always had bad guys and prepare accordingly?
The right to self defense must not be taken away from people, teachers included.

Ohh,but that won't be a perfect answer..

No SCHITT!!
That is just reality.
Lefties have been driving the Rulebook of Acceptable Answers for years,, and a SCHITT job they have done.

I'm not understanding Why ANYONE would listen to them about keeping the kids safe.
Murder in the womb,
Check
Proposals for
Abortion
Up to two years old
Check

I'm pretty sure I remember being told that since I don't have a uterus I shouldn't involve myself in the abortion debate. IDK if that is still the argument, now that men can get pregnant and have an abortion, but if you don't have children, what business is it of yours if teachers are armed?

Lefties have destroyed everything they control, look at Chicago.
Cancerous ideology.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/29/22 at 12:01:20

"Well, one local genius seems to not want to see teachers armed, because the bad guys would just go elsewhere."

That makes zero sense. I wonder if that local genius is being misquoted.

"The right to self defense must not be taken away from people, teachers included."

Not arming teachers is not taking away their right to self-defense. No matter how many times people try to make it sound like that, it is not true. It removes their ability to use guns to defend themselves at work. If someone punches a teacher on a plane, that teacher can not stop it?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/29/22 at 12:57:41

Did Kamala or Joe help you with that?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/29/22 at 19:49:19

7656545C4156330 wrote:

"... Not arming teachers is not taking away their right to self-defense. ..."

A student comes up to a Teacher, and hits them.
(In School)
They cannot hit back. They cannot Defend themselves.

A student comes up to a Teacher, and stabs them with a knife.
(In School)
They cannot Stab back. They cannot Defend themselves.

A student comes up to a Teacher, and points a gun at them them.
(In School)
They cannot shoot back. They cannot Defend themselves.

"...If someone punches a teacher on a plane,..."

Not talking about a PLANE, never was.
But go ahead and Spin it.

We are talking about allowing Teachers to be armed.
And when Teachers are NOT ALLOWED to be armed,
(In School)
that IS, taking away their right to self-defense.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/29/22 at 22:40:48

Not arming teachers is not taking away their right to self-defense.

Not ALLOWING them to carry Is taking their Second amendment rights.

You can try to spin that.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/29/22 at 22:45:14

A student comes up to a Teacher, and hits them.
(In School)
They cannot hit back. They cannot Defend themselves.

Incorrect, they can use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the assault. No teacher has to allow a student to assault them or any other known human.

A student comes up to a Teacher, and stabs them with a knife.
(In School)
They cannot Stab back. They cannot Defend themselves.

That's asinine. No human has to allow any other human to stab them. A teacher can defend themselves, you really think a teacher has to allow a student or any other known human to stab them?

"A student comes up to a Teacher, and points a gun at them them.
(In School)
They cannot shoot back. They cannot Defend themselves."

Incorrect. No teacher anywhere has to allow a student to murder them. They can defend themselves.

"We are talking about allowing Teachers to be armed.
And when Teachers are NOT ALLOWED to be armed,
(In School)
that IS, taking away their right to self-defense."

It is not taking away their right to defend themselves. You really think if a teacher is not allowed to carry a gun they must allow all forms of violence against them to happen? You are saying a kid can stab a teacher and a teacher is not allowed to stop it from happening unless they have a gun?

Nobody else thinks that.

Just be honest and say that not allowing a teacher to be armed greatly reduces their ability to defend themselves and others, especially in events where the assailant is armed with a weapon of their own. Why is it so hard to be honest about that?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by WebsterMark on 05/30/22 at 04:42:52

I have no problem with schools asking for trained volunteers out of their staff to carry. The simple truth is every teacher Who finds themselves barricaded in a classroom certainly would wish they had a gun in her hands. but you can’t make people carry.

But look, I just read the actual statistics and there have been 16 mass school shootings since 1966. Let’s not go crazy. Retrofit schools with a single entry point and other common sense security measures. Follow through with the gun laws that are actually on the books right now.

At this point, we very well could be at a place where 10 times as many people have been murdered in inner cities as were killed in Texas school shooting. That matters. It matters because it should temper our response from an emotional knee-jerk reaction driven mostly by political posturing to something more logical that actually has results. Of course we all know we won’t do that.

We’ll scream and holler about gun control and blame everything on a couple senators who hold out and then a hundred million dollars will be spent on commercials between now and November about how Republicans want to kill school kids because the NRA gave them some campaign cash.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/30/22 at 10:47:45

7A5A58504D5A3F0 wrote:

"... Incorrect, they can use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the assault. ..."

A school teacher,
that is less physically capable than a
Violent Student, is the norm.
So using the
"minimum amount of force necessary to stop the assault"
would be a stretch.
AND, that teacher, would have to PROVE,
beyond any shadow of a doubt,
they believed their life was in danger,
and no way else, except striking the Student back,
would save their life.

They cannot Stab back.
They are NOT ALLOWED to have a knife.
A Student with a knife,
has a distinct advantage over someone without.

They cannot shoot back.
They are NOT ALLOWED to have a Gun.
A Student with a Gun,
trumps all physical differences.

"... Incorrect.
No teacher anywhere has to allow a student
to murder them ..."

Golly Gee, If a Student is bigger and stronger than the Teacher.
Or if the Student has a knife, gun, baseball bat, hockey stick, etc.
Don't think the, teacher, has much choice.

"...Just be honest and say that,
not allowing a teacher to be armed,
greatly reduces their ability
to defend themselves and others,
especially in events
where the assailant is armed
with a weapon of their own.."

Great Idea,
instead of you saying:
"... No teacher anywhere
has to allow a student to murder them.
They can defend themselves..."

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 11:15:20

A school teacher,
that is less physically capable than a
Violent Student, is the norm.
So using the
"minimum amount of force necessary to stop the assault"
would be a stretch.
AND, that teacher, would have to PROVE,
beyond any shadow of a doubt,
they believed their life was in danger,
and no way else, except striking the Student back,
would save their life.

Yeah it's called law. Teachers can't assault students without reason, no more than any other human. The difference is you are trying to say that if they don't have guns they don't have the right to defend themselves. If they have that right "removed" they can't exercise it without penalty.

This is wrong - no teacher anywhere has to allow an assault to commence upon their person if they lack the possession of a firearm.

You are mixing the "removal" of a right with "ability" and this fools nobody. Nobody is going to believe a teacher is not allowed to hit somebody assaulting them unless that teacher has a gun - then they can defend themselves, and only then.

Why is it so hard to be honest and just say that denying teachers the ability to carry a firearm greatly reduces their ability to defend themselves and others? Why go overboard and make it sound like teachers without guns have to let crimes happen or can't do anything at all?

No gun = "remove" right to defend.

"Removed" right to defend = let the assailant do what they want, no actions allowed that could "defend" because that right is "removed".

"Golly Gee, If a Student is bigger and stronger than the Teacher.
Or if the Student has a knife, gun, baseball bat, hockey stick, etc.
Don't think the, teacher, has much choice."

No they do not have to let a person murder them.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/22 at 11:57:59

You know the difference. You know the topic. An ARMED Assailant, murdering children and teachers. Not a slap fight. The school did not allow teachers, even if they were legally able to concealed carry, to have their Second amendment rights in the school.
Now, stop pretending that is Not the conversation.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/30/22 at 12:05:15

Wasn't quite sure if your previous post was,
'Spin', or 'Defending'.
Now I know it was Spin.

7656545C4156330 wrote:

"... No they do not have to let a person murder them.

Perhaps you missed the part;

If a Student is bigger and stronger than the Teacher.
Or if the Student has a knife, gun, baseball bat, hockey stick, etc.
Don't think the, teacher, has much choice

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 12:20:14

"Perhaps you missed the part;

If a Student is bigger and stronger than the Teacher.
Or if the Student has a knife, gun, baseball bat, hockey stick, etc.
Don't think the, teacher, has much choice"

Perhaps you missed the part about mixing "Ability" with "Remove".

If their right is "removed" they have No choice. Saying that not allowing guns is "removing" the right to defend oneself that is a feeble attempt at making it sound worse than it is.

Your example is about ability. My example is about removal. Not allowing guns does not "remove" the right to defend oneself. It greatly reduces it. Why can't you just be honest about that?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 12:21:10

"You know the difference. You know the topic. An ARMED Assailant, murdering children and teachers. Not a slap fight. The school did not allow teachers, even if they were legally able to concealed carry, to have their Second amendment rights in the school.
Now, stop pretending that is Not the conversation."

Stop pretending that if a teacher doesn't have a gun their rights are "Removed". They aren't.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/30/22 at 12:23:17

5777757D6077120 wrote:

"... you are trying to say that if they don't have guns they don't have the right to defend themselves. ..."

So instead of telling,
what someone, 'should' think/say.

You, are telling me,
what I am thinking "...trying to say...".

I find it very interesting that a group of people,
are adamant about a Woman having a 'Choice',
whether or not to Kill her Baby,
for simply convenience sake.

Do NOT WANT a 'Teacher' to have a 'Choice',
on whether or not to get KILLED or injured.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 12:37:01

"So instead of telling,
what someone, 'should' think/say.

You, are telling me,
what I am thinking "...trying to say..."."

Good deflection. Indicating what someone is trying to do is not equal to indicating what they think.

The words you are using convey specific things. The word "removal" means removal, not restriction or reduction.

"Removing" a Right is not restricting or reducing.

So lets restructure my statement:

The words you are using convey that the inability to carry a firearm "removes" a Right.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 05/30/22 at 12:53:01

725250584552370 wrote:

"... The words you are using convey that the inability to carry a firearm "removes" a Right...."

Let me fix that for you:
The words you are using convey that the inability to carry a firearm,
because you are not allowed to, (not by any crime/illness/etc) "removes" a Right...."

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/22 at 12:58:02

6545474F5245200 wrote:

Their Second Amendment rights, to keep and bear arms, is REMOVED.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 12:58:07

"Let me fix that for you:
The words you are using convey that the inability to carry a firearm,
because you are not allowed to, (not by any crime/illness/etc) "removes" a Right....""

Got it.

That is wrong. Teachers that are not allowed to carry a firearm still possess the Right defend themselves. The "Right" is not "removed".

They can not do it with a firearm at locations where they are not allowed to carry one. Just like all other humans.

Why can't you just be honest about that? Spin required on this issue for some reason?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/22 at 13:03:44

So,teach is just supposed to stop a gunman.

You are playing a very disturbing game.

The PROBLEM is the rule that stops teach from pulling a GUN and protecting the kids and themselves. If you think they would be Uncomfortable with a gun,imagine needing to rush the guy with a ball point pen Teach is probably not gonna be James Bond.
You are working so hard to limit real discussion. Why? It's ABOUT teach not being Able to Carry.
You want a thread on how many other ways there are to defend against an ARMED, MURDEROUS NUTJOB
Fire it up!

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/30/22 at 14:49:09

"Their Second Amendment rights, to keep and bear arms, is REMOVED."

Yeah. Not their Right to defend themselves. No part of removing a firearm strips anyone of the right to protect themselves - but by saying it that way we can make it sound worse. OMG teachers have to let a criminal assault them and children unless they have a gun!

If I say removing guns from teachers "removes" their Right to Free Speech would that be accurate? Of course not.

As for a right to bear arms, it's never exactly been universal. For instance private land owners or regulators can restrict firearm presence. Is the Right "removed"? That's up for debate, as I am not required to go on a plane, or be a teacher, so my "Right" still exists, but by definition is restricted.

"You are working so hard to limit real discussion. Why? It's ABOUT teach not being Able to Carry."

Because real discussion doesn't need lies to prove their point. I think teachers should be able to be armed, but would never try to claim, falsely, that their right to "defend themselves" is "stripped". Thats just plain dishonest. I'd rather call it what it actually, really is so the discussion is not this exaggerated nonsense.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/22 at 14:28:03

Exactly what the FUKK is your goal here? It looks like you're really determined to undermine a regular conversation. A stranger walking by Might conclude your goal is to stifle a regular conversation by playing with some very serious hair splitting. I've explained it and you insist on playing little games. WTFis wrong with you? Nobody said teach can't FIGHT,? One MORE MUTHERFUKKIN TIME.. Because teachers are not Allowed to CARRY A GUN, their SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS is removed. Now YOU need to stop pretending that is Not the topic.

I'm goin to get completely rude with you if you keep playing your game.
?STOPPIT!

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 05/31/22 at 20:47:56

"Because teachers are not Allowed to CARRY A GUN, their SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS is removed. Now YOU need to stop pretending that is Not the topic."

I never disagreed with you on that. I very specifically agreed with you about the 2nd Amendment rights.

I will not however agree that the words you used BEFORE like "Stripped" of their "Right" to "PROTECT themselves". That is a lie, they can defend themselves.

If you can't figure out the difference between "2nd Amendment rights" and "Defending themselves" then I don't know what to tell you. Keep screaming about it, maybe you will figure out different words mean different things.

Why would anyone want to have a discussion if the wording is specifically chosen to be inaccurate from the start?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/01/22 at 09:02:46

When the TOPIC is Stated as
The inability to have a GUN
Gun,operative word.
Gun, used to defend against
Armed intruder,murder, etc.

That is THE TOPIC, and the ability to defend themselves
Against THAT THREAT, is Stripped away from them.
I'm NOT typing it all out,every sentence, I'm referring to The Event,
You pretend I'm NOT understanding they can hit them?

Duude, you are just playing Games. Hyperintellectualize every conversation until you choke it. Just STOPPIT.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 06/01/22 at 09:33:04

"That is THE TOPIC, and the ability to defend themselves
Against THAT THREAT, is Stripped away from them."

"Ability."

I already addressed his with MnSpring. Mixing "ability" with "Right" is either intentionally misleading or categorically wrong.

I agree that restricting firearms while at work from teachers limits their "Ability" to use a gun, and restricts their "Right" to bear a firearm.

But in order to have a discussion, not a complaint session, I would have to recognize that only the 2nd Amendment Rights are being restricted and not other Rights. Saying that other forms of protection are "stripped" is incorrect. Type it however you want, I won't be saying that anything more than 2nd Amendment Rights are being restricted.

"You pretend I'm NOT understanding they can hit them?"

I don't know what you understand, you argue that wind power failed on power grids with no wind power, so I go with what you type here, which is why I reference Your words.

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by MnSpring on 06/01/22 at 17:35:37

Seeing as how you don’t believe,
Depriving a person,
of a Right.
Does not deprive them of the ability to defend themselves.

That is your POV.

(No reason to say I am WRONG,
just because I think differently than you,
or is that the, 'correct' way now ?)

What do you teach,
to a person,
who has no Club, Knife, Gun.
and the aggressor HAS a Club, Knife, or Gun.

So they can defend themselves,
against someone having a
Club, Knife, or Gun ?

Title: Re: Here's how it works
Post by Eegore on 06/01/22 at 18:16:05

"Seeing as how you don’t believe,
Depriving a person,
of a Right.
Does not deprive them of the ability to defend themselves."

Again you ignore that I am clarifying "right" from "ability". You are freely mixing the two.

A person without a gun does have the "RIGHT" to defend themselves. They lack the "ABILITY" to do it with a firearms. Their "RIGHT" to defend has not been stripped.

"What do you teach,
to a person,
who has no Club, Knife, Gun.
and the aggressor HAS a Club, Knife, or Gun.

So they can defend themselves,
against someone having a
Club, Knife, or Gun ?"

There is a multitude of things that can be done, none as effective as using a firearm at an appropriate range or "gap" that allows the usage of a gun. But if their "RIGHT" is stripped, they can do nothing unless they have a gun. Their "RIGHT" is removed and as such must allow criminals to harm them and anyone around them or at a minimum act in a method that is not protective or considered "defense".

Why is it so hard to be honest and say removing guns only removes the ability to use guns and restricts the 2nd Amendment right? Why do we have to add all other forms of self-preservation?