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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
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Message started by TheSneeze on 01/27/22 at 11:28:13

Title: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by TheSneeze on 01/27/22 at 11:28:13

I had a guy on FB (I know, consider the source!) tell me the Savage really needs an oil cooler. Out of all the research I have done before starting my street tracker project, I do not recall ever seeing one of these bikes fitted with an oil cooler. Not saying no ever did, but it doesn't seem too common in what I have seen. I would think that if it is as important as this guy thinks, they would be on a lot of bikes. Thoughts?

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Dave on 01/27/22 at 12:45:01

There has been a time or two this discussion comes up - most folks don't see the need for a cooler.

There have only been 3 times that my bike got hotter than normal. One time was a 1st gear crawl up a gravel road on the side of a mountain in North Carolina when the temperatures were about 95 degrees (Oldfeller leading the way)....another time Oldfellor took me to the Dixie Knife Works on a 100 degree day.....and MMRanch took me down Main Street in Pigeon Forge on a 95 degree day. The cylinder heat got up over 300 degrees as the travel speeds were so slow the engine didn't get much cooling air. The engine didn't overheat - but it was hotter than the normal 240 - 260 degrees that I get when the bike is moving.

The engine is air cooled - and if you keep moving the engine isn't going to overheat. If you are in town on a hot day......I am not sure an oil cooler will help much as there will be little or no flow through the cooler without a fan (and we don't have enough electricity to run a fan).

And DragBikeMike will be the once to comment on this - but even adding cubic inches and more HP doesn't seem to raise the engine temperature up too much. In fact the new flat top Wiseco lowered the engine temperature if I remember correctly.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by TheSneeze on 01/27/22 at 13:24:12

I would think oil temperature is more important than cylinder head temp, but there is a limit to all things when it comes to temperature. All of your points make perfect sense to me, Dave. Someone saying these bikes really need one did not. And I remember DBM's post showing what the temps were after all the mods. Since I am doing all of his hop ups, I thought I would toss this out there for comment. Sorry if it just dragging up old discussions. Us old guys usually never do that, RIGHT?!!! ;D

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Dave on 01/27/22 at 14:56:26

I chose cylinder head temperature, as I felt it would always be higher than the oil temperature. The heat in the engine comes from the combustion process....the entire crankcase and oil dissipates the heat made in the cylinder and head.

I chose the left rear head stud for the sender - as that was easy to get to and not located inside the cam housing. DragBikeMike chose the right front cylinder head stud nearest the exhaust - so his readings are higher than mine.

On my normal country rides the temperature is around 240. If I get on the interstate and cruise in 90 degree temps at 70mph the head temp would climb close to 280 with the stock gearing. Once I did the double Kawasaki pulley conversion and got the engine rpm down at highways speeds the temperature dropped 20 degrees and stays around 260.

The only oil/heat related failures I know of occurred when some members got their bikes out on the interstate and rode for long distances at 75-80-85 mph.......and in the process ran the engine low on oil. When you run the Savage engine at 5,000 rpm for long periods it tends to use oil.......not sure if it goes past the rings or out the breather - but it goes away. If you ride fast for extended periods you need to pack some spare oil and keep track of the amount of oil in the engine.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by ckahleer on 01/27/22 at 16:02:16

I would be concerned an oil cooler will not allow the oil to reach its intended operating temperature when riding in cooler weather.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/22 at 17:35:43

5B535950545D5D4A380 wrote:

I would be concerned an oil cooler will not allow the oil to reach its intended operating temperature when riding in cooler weather.

I PREdict , he says ,as he
Looks
Into the Future
No, boys and girls, This Prediction is Not about the past!
THIS Prediction is about the FUTURE!
Amazing, No!?

I PREDICT that one day there will be nifty gizmos that control fluid flow. I PREdict they will be called
Valves.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Hiko on 01/28/22 at 00:12:05

5E4147405D5A6B5B6B53414D06340 wrote:

[quote author=5B535950545D5D4A380 link=1643311693/0#4 date=1643328136]I would be concerned an oil cooler will not allow the oil to reach its intended operating temperature when riding in cooler weather.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Ruttly on 01/28/22 at 01:50:16

Ask DBM

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Dave on 01/28/22 at 04:36:22

I live in a climate that can go from negative temperatures in the winter to triple digits in the summer.

I have added oil coolers to a few sports cars that I modified, and a truck that I used for pulling a trailer. In all those installations I used a thermostat to control the flow of oil to the new cooler. The coolers therefore didn't operate until/unless the oil temperature got high enough to require cooling. Engines do need properly warmed up oil to operate properly.

There are some motorcycles that have oil coolers with thermostats built into the cooler........if I was considering a cooler addition I would try and find a cooler with a built in thermostat.

But - I don't see the need for the way I ride. If I lived in an area where temperatures often exceeded 100 degrees and I rode interstates at 80mph for hours on end.........then may be a cooler would be a benefit.

Youzguyz lives in Texas, rides in hot weather and has nearly 250,000 miles of proof that an oil cooler isn't necessary. His engine wore out the valve guides and seals at 160,000 miles - the original cam and rockers, crank, piston, cylinder, transmission are all still doing the job. He uses good oil (currrently Rotella) and keeps the bike maintained.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Ruttly on 01/28/22 at 10:39:11

Very true Dave. In most cases if the bike didn’t come with it , then it doesn’t need it. Now a nice chrome oil filled oil pressure gauge would be a nice want not a need. Now if you subject our humble little thumper to pulling around one of those trikes(3 wheeler) . A contraption like that would be a constant extra load , then it might be beneficial.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Serowbot on 01/28/22 at 11:35:32

77505151495C250 wrote:

Very true Dave. In most cases if the bike didn’t come with it , then it doesn’t need it. Now a nice chrome oil filled oil pressure gauge would be a nice want not a need.

I think if I had an oil pressure gauge, I'd obsess over it and it would scare me to death.
Ignorance is bliss.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/22 at 11:53:46

The bike is proven, barring that rare mechanical failure. Gauges and coolers won't keep that failure from happening. Well, MAYbe,, but not necessarily. Generally, they just keep running. Ride it, enjoy it. If you are going to ride in a parade and get it hotternHell, then you might want to rethink that.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Dave on 01/28/22 at 14:18:08

4C5355524F4879497941535F14260 wrote:

If you are going to ride in a parade and get it hotternHell, then you might want to rethink that.

I prefer to avoid any situation where I have to stay in 1st gear, slip the clutch......and Duck Walk!

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by ohiomoto on 01/28/22 at 18:35:25

Here is my take:

Don't try and make this bike into something it is not. Why waste your time and money trying to make this POS into a performance motorcycle when you can buy so many other bikes that will perform much better for much less money????

If you want to hang an oil cooler on it because you think it's cool, then do it. I totally get that and I'm 1000% on board with that. I get it that is fun. But if you need to ask, then you are missing the point of doing cool things because you want to. Do it because you think it would be cool to do. Don't do it because you have some fantasy that this POS bike (said with affection) is anything more than it is. Sure you can add a few HP to it and get to...35 hp?? You aren't chasing 35 hp. You are chasing the process of getting to 35 hp.

I'm pretty sure DragBikeMike does what he does because it's fun for him and not because this bike has some sort of "holy grail" potential.

I think the LS650 is a stunning motor to look at and I enjoy riding it. I think it's as cool as anything, but...it's a turd. It's a fun motor to fart around on. If you give me 40 hp, it will still be just a fun motor to fart around on and that's OK.

I never thought about hanging an oil cooler on it, but I think it would LOOK really cool.

Just do it!

Full disclosure: I had a 71 Triumph TR6. It was a rescued, basket case, flat tracker that someone put together and made (close to) street legal. It had a cheap chrome oil cooler hanging under the seat where the side covers and airbox would have been (oil in the frame on the 71 and newer trumpets). The oil cooler would have done nothing over the course of a local flat track race, especially hanging under the seat directly behind the air-cooled motor. But you know what...that was hands down the coolest bike I ever owned. ;)

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/22 at 20:21:59

If you style of riding leads to the hair on your legs being burnt off, then you need a cooler.

Most of us are not.
Summer afternoons riding home from work, I was.
Even 50 mph in traffic got the bike hot, too hot to stop.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/29/22 at 04:31:59

0E09080E0C0E150E610 wrote:
Here is my take:

Don't try and make this bike into something it is not.

Of course almost everyone posting in this thread has turned their Savage into something it wasn’t. But your point about the engine is spot-on

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by TheSneeze on 01/29/22 at 07:30:18

I did not have any plans to add an oil cooler to this project. But when someone commented "that it needed one", and I have not seen any builds on here running one, I figured I would see what the consensus was with the powers that be. I am not surprised that a comment on FB has proven to be complete BS. Go figure. A temperature gage sounds like a good idea, though.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by DragBikeMike on 01/29/22 at 13:34:56

Early on, I figured this thing could use an oil cooler, but after a lot of mods and tests, it looks like a cooler would be overkill.

The DRs use a cooler with Suzukis Advanced Cooling System (ACS). That system has two pumps. One circulates oil for lubrication, the other circulates oil for cooling. I figured the LS needs a cooler too.

I installed a pressure gage, CHT gage, and an oil temp gage in order to collect baseline data for a cooler project. The hotest I have seen the oil is about 242 degrees with a Wiseco pop-top and ignition timing retarded 2 degrees. The ignition timing plays a significant role. It runs cooler when the timing is set to 30 degrees.

With the flat-top Wiseco, I generally run between 200 to 210 (usually closer to 200). The ambient over here is usually around 70 to 88 degrees. It takes about 30 minutes to get the thing all the way up to temperature.

Generally, an oil cooler should be installed downstream of the oil filter. You want the oil hot going into the filter. On the Savage, the only reasonable provision for cooler installation is on the inlet to the filter. I don't think that's good.

At normal operating temp, my oil pressure at 4K is usually about 8 psi, and at idle it is usually about 2 psi. My bike idles at 1400. Those pressures are with a DR cam, no holes in the lobes. With a stock cam (holes in the lobes), it runs 6 psi at 4K and zero at idle. These pressures are achieved using 20W-50 oil. If you use 10W-40, the pressure will be significantly lower.

Most of the literature I have seen recommends 200 to 230 degree normal oil temp with a maximum permissible of 250 degrees. Synthetic oil is supposed to tolerate max temps up to 300 degrees. Seems to me I'm running well within the limits.

One problem I see with an oil cooler is air in the system. If you mount the cooler higher than the crankcase, when you shut down the engine, the contents of the cooler will drain back into the sump. That's a lot of oil. When you start back up, the pump will have to fill the cooler before you start to feed oil to the top end. My bike, without a cooler, takes 3 to 5 seconds to develop pressure at the gage. The gage is connected to the head cover. Filling the cooler will add a significant amount of time to dry operation at startup.

Installing a pressure gage and an oil temp gage is easy. If I lived in a hot climate (AZ, NM, NV, SoCal), and I was interested in modifying my engine, I would find those instruments invaluable. I would install the instruments rather than the cooler. Then, if warranted, I would install a cooler. Make sure it's rated for at least 30 psi. This thing buries my pressure gage when I start it cold.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by ckahleer on 01/29/22 at 16:00:22

In the distant past, I recall seeing an electric pre oil pump, that you could turn on for a few seconds, getting oil flowing to the heads before starting the engine. Not sure if this was a commercially available thing or a one of a kind hack someone put on a hotrod.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by ohiomoto on 01/30/22 at 05:13:18

212B2F252E27232A747276460 wrote:

[quote author=0E09080E0C0E150E610 link=1643311693/0#13 date=1643423725]Here is my take:

Don't try and make this bike into something it is not.

-----------------

Of course almost everyone posting in this thread has turned their Savage into something it wasn’t. But your point about the engine is spot-on[/quote]-------

Haha, you got me there! I was mostly referring to the performance aspects of the bike.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by TBR125 on 01/30/22 at 05:35:17

My experience with the Suzuki S40 is limited, however, from the temps I've seen over the last 5000 miles I don't see a need for an oil cooler for my type of riding which is primarily over 35mph, with the outdoor temp ranging from 11-98 degrees, a 230# rider+cargo weight and an occasional passenger. I avoid using the phrase "normal riding conditions" as I haven't met a normal biker yet, including myself ;D

If you like the looks of an oil cooler or haul either a 14' sailboat or a Miller welder-generator like I did with my Yamaha TW-200 which already had inherent oil flow problems, then you might consider it.

Title: Re: Does the LS650 need an oil cooler?
Post by Ruttly on 01/30/22 at 09:03:23

Thanks DBM