|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing start /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1641043561 Message started by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 05:26:01 |
|
Title: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing start Post by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 05:26:01 The problem is intermittent. If it happens the bike can't be turned off unless you pull the battery terminal. Checked the starter relay and it's ok. Looking at the electrical diagram you see that the start control circuit (controls the timing for start and decompression) is energized regardless of ignition key or start button. I put a new battery in and think that there can be more than 15V for a moment which makes the control circuit fail turning on the start relay. Is my theory correct? Will pull the YB wire at the starter relay to test next time it happens. Now that's a darn poor and UNSAVE design of the start control circuit if i'm right. The rectifier /regulator could also be the culprit. Anyone can recommend a good, strong regulator that will handle a poor absorption of the battery which then won't accept much current and the voltage goes up? |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/01/22 at 05:54:06 Your theory is incorrect. There is no way for a battery to have a charge state of 15v. However, a stuck starter does become a generator and can add voltage/current to the system. More likely is the starter clutch isn’t working, thereby keeping the starter engaged. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by verslagen1 on 01/01/22 at 07:11:14 Rubber side down is strictly for savage related issues and the cafe for all others. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by verslagen1 on 01/01/22 at 07:16:27 555F5B515A53575E000602320 wrote:
The starter motor should be isolated from the battery with the relay off. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by verslagen1 on 01/01/22 at 07:20:14 6C692B2E2A2A797B761A0 wrote:
The savage has the same design. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by verslagen1 on 01/01/22 at 07:29:27 47420005010152505D310 wrote:
It sounds like you have a short. Probably in the wiring harness. In the savage there's a branch that goes to the battery and another to the decomp control, probably around there. Quote:
You can pull the r/r and the bike will operate off the battery for awhile to test your theory. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 09:25:49 OK, let's start with a failing starter clutch. In that case there's no power/current from the battery flowing to or from the starter motor, because the starter relay is open. That means the bike should turn off! Secondly, a wiring short. I can not complete rule that out. The wiring in in good shape though, but i will measure to see whether there is any voltage, even small, on the YB wire which energizes the starter relay. Also there aren't many hot wires on the bike with the ignition off where it could short to, only hot to starter relay and to the start control circuit. Does anyone have a detailed circuit diagram of the start control? Last comment: I disagree that the voltage on the lead acid battery can not be raised above 15V even with a small current. Actually, this is used to recondition the battery, revers a bit of sulfation. The bike regulators are primitive and dump excessive power by shorting a half cyle in the AC voltage of the stator. This may not be enough. The problem i have seen was after a trickle charger was on the battery for a while. So it was fully charged and the battery was new (unknown absorption characteristic). Currently there is an aftermarket regulator on the bike. Would like to replace it with a known strong regulator able to dump 100-150W. Any ideas? |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/01/22 at 09:42:13 I meant static charge state. You can charge a battery to 24 volts - it won’t last, but it certainly won’t hold that charge. A healthy battery will always return to 12.8vdc regardless of how much energy you put into it. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 11:17:58 Agreed. The problem is when charging. If there is overvoltage, then it takes awhile even with a strong regulator to settle it, say at 13.8-14.5 volt charging voltage. Reason is the battery is a huge "capacitor". The question becomes whether Suzuki has designed its electronic to handle overvoltage or whether their timing circuit for starting trips unintentionally at overvoltage. Understood, there is a starting clutch, but imagine going 80mph and the starter motor engages all of a sudden. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Fast 650 on 01/01/22 at 12:41:48 Intruders were great bikes when they were new. As they get older then they can rapidly become a money pit. Especially if they were neglected and abused. The rubber fuel lines deteriorate from age and only the factory molded lines will fit so be ready for that one, they aren't cheap. Same for the clutch and brake hoses when they start to fail. When your fuel pump begins to act up, it will be the relay. There is more than one version of the relay and they are different so be ready for that gotcha when it happens too. A lot of Intruders end up in the scrap heap because the cost to repair them became greater than their value. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 14:32:01 Don't think the problem I described has anything to do with aging, other than replacing the old battery. I will get to the bottom of it by pulling the control relay when the starter is acting up again. If the starter motor still runs, I may have a short of the YB wire to a hot red wire, although unlikely. Pulling the YB wire at the starter relay will then proof that it's not a hung relay. All very logical. Money pit - as with anything else repairs will cost you a lot and may be improper - so DIY! Also, there isn't enough innovation justifying buying a new bike/car/boat every couple of years. BTW, stay on subject - i.e. the technical stuff. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/01/22 at 14:39:58 You can stop that from happening. Put a switch in the line that activates the solenoid. Start it up, flip it off. Time to start it, flip it on. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/01/22 at 15:31:36 a switch, yes thought about that. Here's the problem with it. assume your bike stalls in the middle of an intersection. You want to restart quickly and not have to throw a second switch. Fixing it is best. If the problem lies in the start control circuit, I rather bypass it because it's adding just a 0.7 second delay (and Suzuki has to answer some questions). Not sure the starter button is spec'd to drive the starter relay directly - must check. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/01/22 at 15:48:04 Yep. Best is fix it. I know that. But reality is what reality is. Sometimes Best isn't in the cards. Best is fix the oil leak. But the solution is costly in time and parts. Add oil. You didn't Say you had considered a switch. You presented a problem and asked for solutions. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/02/22 at 13:02:58 Thanks to everyone for their inputs - and a happy new year. To follow up: so far i can not replicate the problem - and i have ridden for several hours. Here's the new theory: the only difference at the time the problem occurred was that the bike had been on a trickle charger for a day or so. The post 97 vs1400 have the rectifier/regulator (RR) directly and always connected (through a fuse) to the battery. Did not disconnect the battery from the bike when it was on the trickle (1A) charger. The charger goes to 14-14.5V and most likely the IC in RR wakes up and wants to regulate - but the loop is broken because there's no power from the stator and the SCRs don't do a thing. So the IC of the RR probably rails causing the RR not to work for awhile after the bike is started, which in turn can lead to overvoltage causing havoc, like the starter motor to turn on. Any comments? Does the bike has to be disconnected from the battery when on trickle charger? |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by verslagen1 on 01/02/22 at 16:30:51 our rectifiers have zener diodes in them that snub down any voltage over 13.5-14v. they don't do anything to cause less voltage to be produced like when alternators are used. you can get rectifiers with mosfet tech, but they more or less work the same with less heat. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/02/22 at 18:42:01 I'm at a loss now. Aside from the mosfet approach there are typically 3 thyristors in the rectifier that short the stator windings (half-wave) when triggered by the DC voltage sensor, which I called IC. This forms the regulation function of the RR. Are you saying the Suzuki RRs have no thyristors (SCRs) in them, but brute force limit the DC voltage with a Zener diode? That will certainly kill the theory and should work with a 1A trickle charger - no problems. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by MMRanch on 01/02/22 at 18:42:44 Sailor I took the decompression thing off mine 20,000 miles ago. replace the relay just for "Keeping it simple" sake ! I thought there is a spring on the starter gear to disengage the starter when the motor starts and exceds the starter speed. Starter clutch . If the starter fails to disengage then guess what ? The starter clutch is "gummed up". Maybe some "Marvels Mystery Oil" in the crankcase might masterly clean it up ? https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d331f7f8700232d0b3dcd3/starter-clutch |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/05/22 at 11:08:51 as an update: Attached a multimeter to my handlebar to monitor the battery voltage when riding. Here it is: assuming 3000rpm (going 45mph in 3.rd), the DC voltage shown is 18.1V. This seems to be the peak and it won't increase at higher rpms. But i consider this TOO HIGH! Any opinions/comments on this? I think the max voltage at the battery should be between 15-16V, else the regulator isn't doing its job. I'm unable to find the OEM RR spec for the intruder vs 1400. Does anyone have those or can point me to it? The voltage at idle is between 12.7-13.4V. The standing voltage (bike turned off, no load) is 13.1V and is constant for days. BTW, haven't tested the voltage when riding immediately after trickle charging. This seemed when the problem with the starter motor engaging occurred. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/20/22 at 19:22:39 Problem solved!! Replaced the rectifier/regulator (RR) with a $28 one from Ebay, which keeps the peak DC battery (charging) voltage at 14.1V and no RR leakage. The battery should be happy with that - and there is no more uncontrolled engaging of the starter motor with the bike not turning off, which i attribute to the overvoltage of 18V+, that i had before. Interestingly, a new Suzuki $220 OEM RR provided very little charging with 13.3V peak only. Still consider the starter relay control circuit not as fail save (very poor and flat out dangerous design by Suzuki) as it may trip when the regulator is failing. Hope this is useful for someone with the same problem. Signing off now (over and) out. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by MMRanch on 01/21/22 at 07:10:43 In that case there's no power/current from the battery flowing to or from the starter motor, because the starter relay is open. That means the bike should turn off! NO . That would mean : only the Stator is connected to the battery. Glad you got it fixed ! :) |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/21/22 at 08:21:22 Just to set this straight - the starter motor should not be confused with the stator (the battery charging AC generator component)! The stator is always connected (through rectifier and regulator to the battery). It's not fused either, so if one is dump enough with the wrong polarity, he may blow the rectifier. Post 96 bikes also have the regulator directly connected to the battery, which can be a problem when using a battery charger. The pre 96 bikes have the regulator only turned on with the ignition switch (orange wire). So again, my bike went from no start to no off or the starter turned on randomly when riding, which means it had to be energized. I think the culprit is the starter timing control/decompression circuit, which likely tripped at over-voltages (18+V) out of the regulator fed by the generator, stator, alternator (whatever you want to call it). |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by MMRanch on 01/23/22 at 15:24:22 Glad you got it fixed , did ya figure what killed your other RR ? |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 01/23/22 at 19:44:41 Hard to do a post-mortem because the electronics in the RR is embedded in some kind of epoxy. If one wants to speculate regarding the bad RR or more accurately the bad regulator : a) resulted from a battery charger that had been set at a higher voltage to fix the old battery, or b) the RR could have been bad from the start, or c) it was designed poorly and was failing over time (getting too hot). The old RR was a after market part, although i'm not sure the OEM will last longer. Would recommend a few tests when installing a new RR, aftermarket or OEM: check for current leakage, i.e. make sure the battery is not discharged by the RR, check the max charging voltage to be between 13.8-14.5 V, check the rectifier for forward continuity. After that, re-check from time to time. IF the regulator fails w/o noticing your battery will die prematurely. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by MMRanch on 01/24/22 at 06:50:39 IF the regulator fails w/o noticing your battery will die prematurely. Sounds like the warning sign here ! My WalMart batteries are lasting about 5 year each. so If things change then I'll be checking the RR voltage first thing ! With two ATV and two Bikes , I've been lucky so far. I use those trickle chargers from Harbor Freight on and off all winter. They all get cranked up and used on those nice winter days. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by Sailor on 02/07/22 at 18:15:47 A second update: It happened again - starter motor runaway or bike won't turn off..... and this time i debugged the problem. After pulling the wires energizing the starter relay solenoid it was still closed turning the starter motor. After removing the cable that runs from the battery to the starter relay it stopped and the starter relay was open (probably it was enough from turning the terminal nut to dislodge the starter relay plunger). So the starter relay contacts either slightly weld together or the terminal nuts were tightened too much such when starting, the plunger got stuck close. BTW, this is a well know problem with MCs even HDs have the issue. Ordered a new OEM relay. Will see how set fairs. |
|
Title: Re: 02 intruder starter motor turns w/o pushing st Post by MMRanch on 02/07/22 at 18:33:19 From Jan 2 Sailor I took the decompression thing off mine 20,000 miles ago. replace the relay just for "Keeping it simple" sake ! So , did ya replace the starter relay ? I hope it stays "Fixed" for ya this time . :) |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |