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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Fill up every 100 miles /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1638332172 Message started by MMRanch on 11/30/21 at 20:16:12 |
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Title: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 11/30/21 at 20:16:12 So , I fill the S-40 up today and was rewarded with these numbers : 2.25 gallons with a GPS measured 112 miles . I feel like Something isn't right ? I'm wondering if I need to lower the float level ? What "TRICKS" are you other fellers doing ? |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by springman on 11/30/21 at 21:15:47 That is a bit strange. The only time I get below 50 is at extended high speed highway jaunts. Also need to add oil at that time. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 12/01/21 at 02:08:00 MM: Last time I asked you - you didn't know what jets you had in the bike. Do you need to use the choke to get the bike started? Does the bike require the choke for a few miles to run well.......does it have a bit of a lean surge until the engine warms up? My suggestion is to take the carb apart and clean it, and see what jets you have. Put in a #50 Pilot, a #147 Main, and 3 washers on the Needle, and then see if you need to change anything to make it run correctly. Lowering the floats is a way to fine tune things on a CV carb - but you should start with the basics. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by bobert_FSO on 12/01/21 at 05:49:11 When I had my Savage, I would have been surprised to get 49mpg. I usually got about 45-46. I think I did run a little rich. I had jetted and needle spaced for an Emgo shorty muffler, then moved to a Dyna. However the bike ran great that way. Minimal cold enrichment needed and never any surging at any speed. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/01/21 at 08:06:04 Thanks fellers Yes , I pull the choke out to start , but go to 1/2 choke after the first 5 hits. After I shift to second gear 30 seconds after a cold start the choke goes off till the next morning. No surging ever . It runs really strong but : One time I put a 160 main jet (+ cone air filter) in while experimenting and the mpg went into the 30's but it ran so strong that it was like a different bike ! I couldn't stand my car getting better mpg than my bike ... so back to the 152/52.5 it went. ................................ I've never done anything with the "Needle". I don't think I've seen how it fastens in there yet . I've seen the needles with the five rings and a little "C" clamp to adjust it with (on other bikes) . It seems like a big jet with a low needle would be the best of everything ... but I'm not a carb expert by no means. I'm guessing that I need to "LOWER" the needle from the factory setting ?? Washers on top of the needle ? I can pull the carb and I have a good selection of needles but the 147.5 is the one I can go to first. ............... The carb does "leak" if I don't turn the fuel off when I park is why I had thoughts of lowering the bowl as well as making it run a little leaner. heck if the carb is on the work bench, then I'll rig up a fuel supply hanging from above and check the float level with the clear hose / drain screw method. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 12/01/21 at 11:09:27 If your engine is just a bit "cold blooded" and you get a bit of a lean surge until the bike is warm........that to me is a good indication that your jetting is nearly ideal. A lean surge on a cold engine is a good indication that you are not jetted "rich". On the Savage the spacer/washers are on top of the needle, and a little spring holds the needle up against the washers/spacer. So the thicker the stack of washers the leaner the "mid range" will be. I like to keep adding washers until I get a noticeable lean surge....then start removing them just until the bike runs smoothly at partial throttle when fully warmed up. A little bit of a surge on a cold engine is a good thing provided it goes away when the engine is up to temperature. For anything but full throttle acceleration or highway work where you are holding the throttle more than 3/4 open....the main jet really isn't in control of the fuel mixture or mpg. I suggest you start with a #147.5 main, a #50 pilot and 3 washers in place of the white spacer, get a new float needle if yours is old and leaking, check to see if your TEV diaphragm is old and stiff and replace it if needed (they don't last forever), and set your float level to the factory setting. My cafe' bike is light and doesn't have a windshield, and the engine has a Wiseco 94mm, performance cam, Mikuni VM carb and tall gearing. I regularly get in the high 50's for mpg, and if I ride around with pokey guys on cruisers I can get in the high 60's for mpg. I would suspect that your big windshield and saddlebags are hurting your mpg quite a bit.....try riding without a windshield and see what happens (maybe not a good idea in December). Also check to see that your wheels rotate easily and a brake is not dragging, and that your tire pressure is up. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Tocsik on 12/01/21 at 11:38:22 2.25 gallons. I forget, you put on a pretty big tank, didn't you, MMR? And don't you sport the big comfy couch seat and a few bags? I average about 50-52 mpg. Last fill up showed 42.4, which was a pretty low one. Most of my riding is commuting (sadly) on side roads, about 40 miles/day. I'm in Denver, so left the jets stock. Cold starts need choke for a few minutes of the ride and I do have just a little surge at low speed traffic crawls. I'm glad Dave chimed in with a lot of thoughts. I may check my TEV diaphragm. It's an easy first step before pulling the carb. Carb stuff is a bit out of my league. Would love to live near a fellow member with skills. I do notice mpg is better when I go on my "fun" rides up in the mountains and canyons. Speed limits are on the low side on the Peak-to-Peak highway and up this canyon I like to hit. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/01/21 at 16:05:18 Well , it didn't warm up as much as the weather lady said it would today. So instead of taking a ride today I took the S-40 to the shop. I started to take the carb off but - after seeing that the carb don't come with out removing the airbox first it occurred to me that I don't need the carb off I need the top of the carb off. OK , I did get to the white spacer but it wasn't easy. I had to use one of those left drill bits to break one of those little screws loose inside the "Slide "once I got it out. What I found was that the needle has six groves and a "C-clip". The clip was on the third from the bottom . So I moved the clip to the fifth ring and tried it out ... it was "WAY WAY to much . So I pulled it out again and its in the fourth ring now and works good What the MPG will be ... I hope to find out tomorrow . Then maybe go changing jets ??? :) |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 12/01/21 at 18:35:32 MM: When was the last time you cleaned or replaced your air filter? The fact that your carb has slots for the c-clip makes me believe somebody has installed an aftermarket carb kit in that bike. There is no way to know what jets are in there. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/01/21 at 20:10:28 When was the last time you cleaned or replaced your air filter? What ! These things have air filters ? You clean them every 100,000 miles don't ya ? ;D I'll check on it tomorrow before I take it out for a hundred-mile loop ........... Yea , lowering the needle by two rings might have worked with a larger main jet ? There was a dead spot at low throttle but it cleared up with more throttle but was still clearly too lean ! The spring under the needle was too big of diameter , it kept getting past the clip and pushing the white spacer off the needle while I was getting it reassembled. So , I used a smaller dia. spring of about the same strength and length. Mine is a 2005 model , and I got it with about 3K miles on it . It was only a few years old when I got it. , I think it was a stock machine. ?? I believe the jets are 152.5 and 52.5 , but I'll find out for sure some warm/wet winter day between now and spring. Hay Versey I want to know what you did to the BEAST ! to get 140+ miles before hitting reserve ? That's awesome !!! ..................... |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/02/21 at 16:36:46 OK , Ya'll got to try this. So I lowered the needle by about 0.5mm (one ring on the needle) - and everything else is the same. The needle was sticking out 44 mm to begin with. I filled the tank today and took a ride. About half the ride was back roads at 30-45 mph and the other half was running 62 in a 55 zone. With going through three towns doing the red light to red light. All together it was a 128 mile loop. When I got back to my small home town (that would be town #4) , I refilled the tank. I was surprised it only need 2.08 gallons to refill it. That's over 61 mpg . I'll have to do it again to really believe it ! :) |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 12/03/21 at 03:12:04 504250424F5C535E551D0 wrote:
I often wonder how many motorcycles are running around and are jetted too rich. A bike that is too lean runs unevenly, surges and backfires and is a pain to ride - but a bike that is a bit too rich starts easily and really doesn't show any symptoms.....other that a sooty exhaust pipe and poor fuel mpg. A properly jetted bike runs much crisper and gets better mpg and is a joy to ride. When I was fooling around with my engine it took me about 5 jet changes to get things perfect. (I start with a #50 pilot, #150 main and 3 washers on the needle). The first thing I do is work on getting the pilot jet correct......the correct size will provide for the smoothest idle at 2 - 2.5 turns out. If you can turn the fuel mixture screw all the way in and the engine still runs - the pilot jet is too big......if you have to turn it out more than 2.5 turns to get a smooth idle the pilot jet is too small. (You must turn the idle speed down to around 800 rpm to get this fuel mixture adjustment correct). Some bikes are happy with the #50, some want a #52.5....and one was happiest with a #47.5....all had the stock paper air filter. (I really don't think the type of filter has much affect on the pilot jet, as the air flow is so small at idle that there will be very little difference in the flow provided by the filter. The next thing I do is work on the main jet. I will put in bigger main jets until I can hear/feel the engine begin to "blubber" under full throttle.....then go smaller until I can hear/feel the engine is lean by being uneven - then I will choose to keep a jet in between those two extremes. The final thing I do is set the slide needle height......I keep adding washers until I can feel the bike "surge"during light throttle settings (which shows the bike is too lean). Then I start taking away washers until the light throttle settings provide for smooth running.......in my opinion this is where most of the riding is done (1/4-3/4 throttle), and it has the most affect on fuel mpg (other than 3/4-full throttle at interstate highway speeds). When a bike is jetted this way it runs the best when on the throttle and gets good fuel mpg. The bike may get a little noisy when you allow the throttle to close completely while decelerating (compression braking) or shifting gears - as the fuel mixture goes lean when the throttle is closed and the only fuel is provided through the idle circuit. You can easily stop the backfiring/noise by using your right wrist to crack the throttle open a very small amount and giving the engine a bit more fuel (you only need to use enough throttle to stop the noise....not enough to make the bike accelerate). And......if the bike is too noisy you can go up one size on the pilot jet and make the mixture at closed throttle a bit richer without hurting your fuel mileage.....however you may need to make an adjustment on the needle height after going larger on the pilot jet. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/03/21 at 05:48:33 I use a luggage lock to keep track of my fill-up mileage and calculate my MPG at every fill-up. Now that I've got a GPS speedometer I'm feeling better about my exact miles too. So , I'll be checking it every time. I'm not sure I need to go any further than 60+ mpg ? I'm kind of under the impression that much more the 60 mpg is going to require a fuel with more BTU's in it ? :-? Like you mentioned Dave , I'm pushing a fair size windshield through the air and making room for those saddle bags too . :) |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by ohiomoto on 12/03/21 at 18:04:59 I leaned mine out and still hardy ever get much over 50 mpg but I'm a big person. When I got the bike I never got much over 42 mpg. It had a 55/155 combo in it with a Dyna pipe and while it sounded cool, it ran like a turd. It runs better now but the exhaust note changed a bit with the jetting cleaned up. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 12/10/21 at 19:38:14 We had a warm , rainy , day today ... so ... I pulled the bowl off the carb today. What I found was a 142.5 main and a 47.5 little one. ....................... When I had the needle out last time ,I was surprised at the "LACK OF" taper it had. I'm thinking somebody played with the carb before my time started ... it only had about 3k miles on it when I bought it , but it is what it is . .......................... I had in mind trying a smaller main jet so I got to looking at the ones I have on hand . Well the next size down I have is 137.5 ... so I put it in and also a 45 little jet. Sounds too small to me too ! But it cranked right up with the choke and after 60 seconds with the choke off ... it didn't stumble when throttled . It might be Monday before I can take it for a "proper" test run , but I rode it up and down the driveway for a couple trips and around the hay field a bit too , to my surprise never acted like a lean machine . |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by springman on 02/11/22 at 13:47:59 Hey MM, I was thinking of you and this thread when I fueled up the other day. I had gone 120 miles and it took 2.14 gallons giving me basically 56mpg. The Honda 1100 generally give me around 45mpg. Maybe someday I'll a get a newer fuel injected bike. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 02/12/22 at 08:55:45 120 miles and it took 2.14 gallons Well don't go FI to get MPG , I had two Harleys Sportsters that weighed the same with the same windshield on them both. The Carbureted one averaged 58mpg and the FI one only averaged 52mpg. I'm getting an average of 52 or so on my Savage now with the OPEN exaust (1.75") hole all the way through it till the very back end. At the end I had to put a DB-Killer in it to quiet it down a little , the bolt holding the chrome tip on also holds the DB Killer ! I've also got a 137.5 main jet in it now and it still runs plenty rich , I've got the choke off before I get out the driveway even in 40 deg weather . It might be that : To push the windshield and saddle bags through the wind just takes that much fuel ? :-/ I've got the original fuel tank back on mine. So 2.8 gallons is what I got. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 02/13/22 at 04:09:40 MM: The Pilot Jet (small one) has very little affect on fuel mileage - it mostly controls the mixture at idle. Once you start to open the throttle the needle and needle jet are adding fuel as the slide rises. By the time you have 1/4 throttle the pilot jet no longer has any affect. The Main Jet controls the mixture once you start to get over 3/4 throttle and is in complete control of the fuel mixture at full throttle. There are times I go on a ride and never use the main jet the entire day - as the local twisty roads limit the speed to about 50 mph and that is 1/2 throttle on my bike. Unless you ride at full throttle a lot - the majority of the fuel mixture and mpg is controlled by the position of the needle. The needle has control of the mixture from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle - which is likely where you spend most of your time riding. To choose a Pilot Jet (small one) - adjust the idle speed down below the normal 1,100 rpm to around 800 rpm.......you do this so he slide drops and it is not adding extra fuel through the needle jet. Then adjust the fuel/air screw to achieve the smoothest idle - if you can turn the fuel screw all the way in and the engine still runs, the jet is too big. If you have to turn the screw more than 2.5 turns out, the jet is too small. (The taper in the screw stops adding fuel when it is 3 turns out - so you should not open it more than 3 full turns). Once you have a jet that provides a smooth idle at between 1.5 - 2.5 turns out - you have the correct size pilot jet......the range of jets that works in a properly set up carb are between #47.5 - #52.5. When you have the proper jet size chosen - turn up your idle speed to 1,100 rpm and rejoice in having that job done.....as you won't have to fuss with it again. Changing air filters or mufflers have very little affect on the Pilot Circuit and you likely will never need to change the Pilot Jet again....however you may have to clean it someday as the holes are very small and get clogged up easily). The next step is to choose a main jet. This is done by finding a nice long straight section of road......a steep uphill helps to limit your speed while still getting a good indication of how the bike runs at full throttle. I start with a #150 jet and go from there. Choosing a proper main jet is the hardest part for me - as it includes "listening" and you really need to pay attention to how the bike responds. I ride with the #150 and see how the bike runs at full throttle - the engine should be pulling strongly and the exhaust note should be "crisp"......not with a "burble" (See....I told you this wasn't easy). Once the engine is pulling hard and you are going pretty fast.....start to roll off the throttle a tiny amount....and listen/feel what the bike does - if you hear the exhaust note become more crisp and you feel like the bike begins to accelerate a little bit - that is an indication the fuel mixture is too rich at full throttle. Then you need to repeat the procedure with a different size jet and see if the performance improves or declines. DragBikeMike has a tachometer and uses time runs between 2 or 3 thousand rpm to see if the performance improves. You could do the same between 40 and 70 mph on the same section of road. I normally put in other jets and find the place where I know it is too rich by the obvious blubbering sound the engine makes.....and the place where I know it is too lean by the surging and uneven acceleration that occurs when the engine is too lean - then I know for sure the range somewhere in between where the proper jet is. This Main jet can be affected by air cleaner and muffler choices - however I thing a reasonable range is between #147.5 to #152.5......a #155 is likely too rich unless you have made some wild changes in the intake/exhaust. The needle is pretty easy to select - even though it is a bit of a pain to get to and make changes. For a needle without the multiple positions for the clip - I remove the white plastic spacer and use 3 machine screw washers (I believe they are #4 size -but don't get brass ones as the OD is too big to fit in the slide). If you have a needle with multiple positions for the clip, you start with the middle position and work up/down depending on how the bike runs. When the mixture is correct you can get smooth acceleration at low throttle once the engine is fully warmed up.........you likely have the proper fuel mixture if you can feel the bike surge a little bit under light throttle settings while the engine is cold. When my engine was stock the bike would not accelerate smoothy with 3 washers.....changing the Main jet did nothing - to correct the surging at low throttle I remove 1 washer and it ran great with 2 washers - however most of the carbs I have adjusted ran fine with 3 washers. If the bike runs smoothly while cold with 3 washers.....then add another and try 4 - you should feel a slight surge on a cold engine if the mixture is proper (if the engine runs smooth while cold the mixture is likely too rich for the best fuel mileage). |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 02/13/22 at 04:14:26 MM...I am sure your mpg is affected by your big windshield and saddlebags, as those do catch a lot of wind. I also believe your DB killer could have some impact as well. https://www.ebay.com/itm/324341667315?chn=ps&var=513407297825&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1F4qGNbdiS32FslSa9T5ZGA98&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=513407297825_324341667315&targetid=1599090335457&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9014427&poi=&campaignid=15275224983&mkgroupid=131097072938&rlsatarget=pla-1599090335457&abcId=9300697&merchantid=138374608&gclid=CjwKCAiA9aKQBhBREiwAyGP5lTxcX64oM07iq18wnoeP1yPPQnsSDsYb93O696bvy9MObHVZsoiVNxoC43UQAvD_BwE You chose a muffler with little restriction and it was too loud - so you stuck a perforated hunk of metal in the exhaust that restricts noise....and flow! You really should get a muffler that is designed like the Dyna muffler where the exhaust flows into a chamber to kill the noise, then back out of the chamber to exit the muffler. The noise is reduced by the fiberglass or stainless fibers lining the chamber - not by a blockage in the flow. Here is a link to DragBikeMike's muffler thread........it is what you should be using for performance and mpg without noise. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1609379913 |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 02/13/22 at 19:30:30 Wow Dave Right away I see that the needle on the DR200 needs to be raised a notch ! Thanks for the diagram ! :) Yea , it has a dead spot (when 1/2 warm or cold) about time its moving into the "Needle" range . The higher speeds are just fine. ............ Getting back to the LS650 , that restricts noise....and flow! I don't think so , the DB killer's most restrictive area is a "1-inch" pipe about "<1-inche" long before the first exit hole and its at the end of the muffler where the gasses have cooled off/shrank and quit pulsing as much as they are going too. I'm not sure that is a problem being the inside header pipe is only 1.4-ish to begin with up on the hot/pulsing end of things .. I could move the obstruction to the middle of the pipe (or anywhere back up stream) ... but the gasses are still hot and expanded back toward the head pipe. The pipe has plenty of room inside (1.75) and 3" dia outside. So the exaust is going from the head pipe (Pulsating - high pressure zone) to the muffler (Steadying - low pressure expansion zone a foot and a half long) , then to a (Smooth/Steady - medium pressure zone) at the exit. I don't see any restriction in the set up at all . Moving the solid divider to the middle of the pipe is where I was 10 muffler designs ago. I've learned better but , it does have more of a quieting effect on the system , but I'm going lower pressure after the head pipe now. I think you missed the part where hot gasses need more room than Cooler gasses , then there is the pulsing vs smooth flow thing too. You recon a lack of back pressure hurts MPG do ya ? That might be the low mpg problem I'm having more so than anything else we have come up with ! ... Seem like I saw a U-tube to that effect one time ? I'm not having lack of power problems at all ! ;) Why is exhaust velocity so important? https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/exhaustbackpressure.html I've got good scavenging in the 4 to 5K rpm now , I normally ride below that area or right at the bottom of it. I was surprised to see the 5 rings and the lack of taper on the needle ? Some times I can't help but wonder if a narrower windshield might be the ticket to better MPG . |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/14/22 at 07:13:32 Good info,, enjoyed the article,, You guys keep going.. |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by springman on 02/14/22 at 09:28:42 MM, bike is looking good. Had not seen your hard bags. Nice. Dave is the expert on all that technical stuff and I would probably follow his advise. I will admit though as you well know, I have never had a windshield or saddle bags on the S-40. Just my fat self! :( |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by LANCER on 02/14/22 at 12:33:48 2023213A3D343E323D530 wrote:
When did you get fat ? |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/14/22 at 14:53:54 I shamed him into eating the spaghetti I made. He ate a bit and quit. I wasn't having that. I asked him if I stopped by,needing an overnight place in a journey if he would resent me in his house and eating the food he fixed for me. No.. Okay, then enjoy! Maybe my spaghetti sauce got him. ???????? |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 02/14/22 at 16:04:00 MM, bike is looking good. Had not seen your hard bags. Nice. Thanks :) It needs a bath really bad , but its winter so I'm not getting wet to do it ! ;D It's running really good too ! ;) I'll put the smaller windshield on before our Texas Trip and carry some extra fuel cans in them saddle bags . |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by springman on 02/15/22 at 09:45:48 JOG, that spaghetti was pretty darn good and I was hungry. Thanks. I guess fat is a relative term. Being the extremely tall man that I am (5'7") and only pushing around 195 lbs., yeah, maybe I should consider myself thin. ;D ;D ;D ;D Can't stop laughing. Seriously, I would like to get back below 185 lbs and preferably below 180. I just love to eat!!! |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by LANCER on 02/15/22 at 10:34:17 I’ve gone from 195 to 165 in the last couple of years. Smaller serving size and fewer donuts did it for me. Stopped some meds and reduced others in the process. [ch128526] |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by springman on 02/16/22 at 07:53:43 You are a good role model there Lancer. That is what I am hoping to do. I have not been in the 170's since my early forties. I'm doing much better during the day. It's the night time at home where I just can't seem to resist snacking. Even if it is a healthy snack it is still additional calories. Working on it though! >:( |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by Dave on 02/17/22 at 03:14:52 Here you go MM.......you can own a 4th bike! (And maybe a 5th!). https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/mcd/d/cincinnati-1997-moto-guzzi-1100-sport/7446817617.html https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/mcd/d/cincinnati-1997-moto-guzzi-1100-sport/7446817617.html |
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Title: Re: Fill up every 100 miles Post by MMRanch on 02/17/22 at 18:37:31 ;D Guzzi sure made some UGLY Bikes back in 1997 ! ;D ;D I believe the 1100cc motor was a gas hog !! Besides being ugly those are "Way too HEAVY for me" at this time in life . Really , I never have liked those "HEAVY" bikes , they just don't seem like "BIKES" ! Heck , I had a 1200 Sportster durning my prime ridding years and couldn't make it keep up with the little Suzuki Savages ! ::) So , I've got a 250 pounder , a 380 pounder , and a 420 pounder and like them all . ;) Dave you need another bike one with nice firm stand-up cylinder heads . Hay Dave , This little DR200 is "FUN" , and its got 3.4 gallons ! I'm thinking on replacing the 18 year old tires on it. They aren't wore out (2Kmiles on them" . I'm looking at these :Shinko 705's https://www.ebay.com/itm/373420257817?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 You get the DR650 and I'll trade with ya if ya don't like it. |
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