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Message started by MnSpring on 10/31/21 at 19:23:34

Title: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 10/31/21 at 19:23:34

Mining Cobalt is good.
(Because it is for Elect Cars)

… Children as young as seven are working in perilous conditions…
… mining cobalt for smartphones, cars and computers…
… brands including Apple, Microsoft and Vodafone…
… one dollar a day …

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 10/31/21 at 20:03:48

While I am by no means pro-child labor especially in DRC where I've seen what could be considered genocide, I am also not delusional towards progress. Show me a phone that uses coal batteries and I will be pro-coal as an alternative to cobalt.

The "Internet" uses data centers, commonly called server farms. It's estimated that about 40% of the energy used to run them is cooling.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317308758_Cooling_Energy_Consumption_Investigation_of_Data_Center_IT_Room_with_Vertical_Placed_Server

This is bad for the environment, when typewriters and mailed letters, while bad for trees, and using fuel to distribute, still are more environmentally efficient than the internet.

Instead of increasing the efficiency and human cost of Cobalt mines we should use Coal because it is cleaner now - after a century of development. Also it is less likely children will be used.

So by this logic instead of creating and using the Internet and then developing more efficient means of managing it's environmental impact we should have kept typewriters and envelopes because those are more environmentally friendly and far less likely to harm children.

The reason I bring these up is because we could stop all Cobalt mining in the world and pay each Cobalt miner a livable wage to mine Coal instead. Mine that Coal all day every day, clean as could be and no matter how much Coal we mine we would have to go back to mailing more letters because our cellphones wouldn't hold power since there are no Coal stabilized capacitors.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/01/21 at 07:12:19

527270786572170 wrote:

"...
So by this logic instead of creating and using the Internet and then developing more efficient means of managing it's environmental impact we should have kept typewriters and envelopes because those are more environmentally friendly and far less likely to harm children. ..."

And another,
'Swing and ah Miss'

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
;D ;D
;D

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/21 at 13:26:26

Show me a phone that uses coal batteries and I will be pro-coal as an alternative to cobalt.

How many THOWZUND phones would it take to equal ONE cars batteries?

Other than That, A perfectly reasonable attempt at equating one to the other.

If I wasn't tired and sore I'd be enjoying a big bellylaff at That lameass attempt at equivalency.
E,I'm embarrassed For you.

PM Bot. Maybe he can advise you on how to take a Mulligan.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/01/21 at 13:44:03

"How many THOWZUND phones would it take to equal ONE cars batteries?"

Bottom line is MnSpring brought smartphones into the conversation. So show me a smartphone that uses a coal alternative if you are going to imply mining cobalt is bad in a thread titled "Mining Coal is Bad" What are we supposed to do, use a coal alternative?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Serowbot on 11/01/21 at 16:32:06

An average E-car uses about 200 1.2v batteries.
Average 1.2v is about 600mAh
My average phone is 3000mAh or about 5 1.2v batteries

Soooo,... by my poor reckoning,.. 200 / 5 = 40.
A car is 40 cell phones.

I remember a news story from back when cell phones were pretty new, and a Czech entrepreneur decided to buy a huge batch of phones to resell.
As a courtesy, the vendor he bought them from does an initial "howdy, welcome" type robocall call to all new customers.
So,.. of course all the phones in the car rang at the same time.
He crashed...

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/21 at 18:42:08

You are clueless.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/21 at 18:44:13

You might want to Think, before you step in that.

Using lithium-ion batteries in electric automobiles the weight of the battery system necessary for traveling 100 km can exceed 150 kg. For limousine-class electric automobiles, the travel range of which is more than 300 km, the weight of batteries could exceed 500 kg. This is one of the reasons why auto manufacturers are not eager to considerably increase the capacity of battery packs to above 30 kWh. A medium-class electric automobile equipped with 1.1 kWh batteries can cover, on average, a distance of 8 km. A number of researchers suggest using the plug-in technology

Daaayum..

You need to watch CNN more.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/01/21 at 18:50:24

3422352830252833470 wrote:

"... Since 2013 for models X and S cars, Tesla has been using lithium ion batteries manufactured in a special way.
There are 18650 cells in total.
But that is not the case with all models. The model determines how many batteries in a Tesla car work together. These battery cells are small,
not significantly larger than AA cells. ..."

Been eating Beens lately ?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/21 at 18:59:01

How much does the Tesla battery weigh?
The Tesla battery pack weighs 1,200 lbs (540 kg), which is equal to about 26% of the car’s total weight. This puts the car’s center of gravity a mere 44.5 centimeters off the ground, giving the car unprecedented stability. The battery itself contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells.

Maybe you should rethink what you believe about the difference in the mining required for cell phones versus cars .
You Know
The ENVIRONMENT?

I've had a few cell phone batteries in my hands. I don't remember seeing one I thought weighed four ounces, but, let's just Go with that. So, four phone batteries is one pound.
Soo, Four THOWZUND, Eight hundred phones for ONE CAR. And the Perpetual Clown Show left wants to kill the internal combustion engine.

And you people treat us like WE are clueless.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/21 at 20:21:02

I'm surprised that someone who, I'm guessing, knows it's
Probably not a great idea to try to fire off the F150 using a lawnmower battery could get information about the batteries in an electric vehicle, batteries of sufficient current storage capacity to run a car ,in traffic, 250miles, and that is a battery the size of FORTY cell phone batteries.. Well, if someone believes that, wouldn't it make sense to add forty more batteries? Double the range? Forty batteries Can't be bigger and heavier than forty Phones, since they are Just the batteries FROM phones, right?
Real-world 0-60 mph acceleration tests of the Tesla Model Y Performance are proving that the all-electric crossover is quicker than what the company advertises.

Tesla claims in its online configurator for the Model Y that the dual-motor Performance variant can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds. This is the case for both the Model Y Performance with 19[ch8243] Gemini wheels as well as the Model Y with Performance Upgrade package that includes larger brakes and 21[ch8243] Uberturbine wheels.

However, in a series of real-world Model Y 0 to 60 mph acceleration tests conducted by Erik of the DÆrik Youtube channel, Tesla’s newest 5-seater crossover managed to stop the clocks at a lightning-quick 3.30 seconds.

Seriously, anyone who believes the battery pack in A CAR is only forty times the size of a cell phone battery really otta sit out having opinions about the whole green energy thing.
Coal powered cell phones,, Phhhht..
Beclowners of themselves.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 05:07:31

Of course an electric car’s battery is greater than 40 cell phones (by a factor of several thousand I would guess) and I can’t believe anyone would think otherwise. But then again, while many who’ve flow across the world in private jets are well aware climate change is a gigantic scam, there are many who believe any graph with a bunch of graph with and numbers.

This is how the greatest scam on human history marches on. Wind farms and solar panels can’t power global energy demands. They can’t. End of discussion, but we keep pretending it can because people see a few numbers and say well it must be true cause that little girl said so.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 05:57:08

"Coal powered cell phones,, Phhhht..
Beclowners of themselves."

If the logic is to not mine Cobalt, then what is the alternative?

Coal? Why even mention cellphones in a post about how bad Cobalt is compared to Coal, if there are no Coal powered alternatives? I think you are missing my point.

Why bring cellphones into an equation about Coal if there is no nexus between their power usage?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 06:07:16

"This is how the greatest scam on human history marches on. Wind farms and solar panels can’t power global energy demands. They can’t. End of discussion, but we keep pretending it can because people see a few numbers and say well it must be true cause that little girl said so."

I sort of agree.

I agree that wind and solar can not supply the entire globe with power. I do not think we should avoid examining how applicable they are in a case by case basis. For instance we recently completed the Bighorn Solar Array that powers 90-95% of a steel mill. It was said this couldn't be done because of the large draw a steel mill of this type has, and now it is up and running. iI was either design a renewable, or the company leaves.

So can that array power the entire city? No. Chances are solar couldn't take that town through a winter, so we need to use the best power we can. Reducing coal usage in a State where coal has declined for the past 80 years sounds like a good idea to me. Why would we try to convince consumers, and employees to go coal if there are desired alternatives?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 06:23:10

I’m in a doctors office waiting room at the moment and can’t look now, but I seriously doubt solar panels power a steel mill. Maybe a steel fabrication facility but a mill? Maybe the panels supplied power equal to demand for a period of time but can’t see full time. Something is not adding up.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 06:32:19

Yes it's a mill:

https://www.evraz.com/en/company/assets/evraz-pueblo/

Steel products made on-site, there are others as well:

https://www.evraz.com/en/products/steel/

The array is about 751,000 panels. More info here:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lightsource-bp-launches-bighorn-solar-project-in-colorado--powering-worlds-first-steel-mill-to-run-almost-entirely-on-solar-301399213.html

https://www.lightsourcebp.com/us/projects/bighorn-solar/

Your assessment was the initial problem. People just can't imagine solar working that efficiently, but today it can. Plenty of people, none that work in energy, told me that solar would never power the mill. Admittedly the array is huge, but it also has room for more. The mill company put forth continual power assurance, not intermittent peak demand request. So yes, this array is designed to power, reliably, the mill operations.

At this time it's tests show 90-95% output so it can be safe to say solar can not fully power this mill, it needs 5-10% additional. After the winter they expect 100% but we will see. The primary reason I got involved was due to past solar fraud.

I won't have full numbers until June of next year but will gladly go over them with you step by step and you can check the math yourself.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/02/21 at 07:53:40

786E79647C69647F0B0 wrote:

An average E-car uses about 200 1.2v batteries. ..."

Must be Wonderful,
to live in that,
that Fairy Dust Sprinkling world,
where 40 cell phone Batteries,
can power a Car for 250-300 miles.

And so convent.
when a car runs out of ~~gas~~ elect,
just plug in your phone,
and you can limp along to the next charging station !

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/02/21 at 08:32:16

Wonder what all the rules/regulations/restrictions,
are in force for,
the lithium mines in the United States ?

Perhaps someone who claims they know
EVERYTHING, about everything.
Or says they know someone that knows,
everything about everything,
could inform us ?

Of course the US cannot control the Lithium mines in other countries,
Same as controlling Pollution in China.
(The US can JUST PAY China to, POLLUTE More)

As long as that …, ‘something’,
is NOT in Their, backyard !
What ever is done is OK !

But mining/using, Coal,
pumping/using, oil,
is Bad.
When it is done in North America.

Especially when the equivalent of 40 cell phones,
can power a Elect Car for 250/300 miles,
using FREE ‘elect power’,
which NO, Coal/Oil was used in the making of !

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Serowbot on 11/02/21 at 08:52:52

Did you know that birds aren't real?...
https://birdsarentreal.com/pages/the-history
http://https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0011/3013/5596/files/Screenshot_20171020-173929_036a4b8f-1d4e-4240-a5d9-992f32e3a4de_480x480.jpg?v=1565728246

http://https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0011/3013/5596/files/B032FDDD-542F-4B29-9487-476661E44B56_480x480.jpeg?v=1539448749

PS.. and JFK jr is alive and will be Trump's VP in 2024. :o

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 09:55:56

7E5E5C54495E3B0 wrote:

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 12:22:56

"Wonder what all the rules/regulations/restrictions,
are in force for,
the lithium mines in the United States ?"

ICLG has all the information you are looking for.

https://iclg.com/practice-areas/mining-laws-and-regulations/usa

See the difference here is you wonder and like to say things while I like to know things. So I call up a Director of Safety at a local mine and ask where regulations could be found. Wasn't that hard. I also don't chime into every thread, if I don't know anything about it, or would just complain instead of providing usable information, I don't comment.

"Perhaps someone who claims they know
EVERYTHING, about everything."

I have never claimed that but nice spin. Again, if I don't have any information or knowledge I don't post. Dropping in to complain about gun control on unrelated topics isn't exactly my deal. If I can't contribute, I don't post.

"Or says they know someone that knows,
everything about everything,
could inform us ?"

I never said that, but nice spin. I do however run a company that extracts and analyzes data as part of the process of developing safety/training and extraction programs so knowing people, and researching things is normal for me. If we mess up, people die. Instead of wondering and complaining, I go do things.

You've been calling me a liar for a while now but anyone that actually looks at what I provide, or talks to the people I put them in connection with find out otherwise.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 12:36:07

I’ve been to plenty of steel mills which is why I’m a little surprised. But a couple of questions. Do they have an on-site energy storage system? If so, what kind? I believe the article said they can get 90% of their energy usage from these panels, but these panels clearly don’t provide power for 90% of the operational hours so what are they doing to make up the difference especially when that difference could be 4 to 5 days in a row of adverse weather conditions?

So why I got involved was because in the past in CO solar companies have essentially made promises to provide X-amount of energy into the "grid" and failed. But the money / tax credits used didn't have to be paid back for that failure and this created more fraud. Solar could be placed with little accountability to provide.

This super-array is essentially the same thing, but with much more accountability. The energy created is routed to a nearby coal fired powerplant that is going to shut down coal operations in 20 years. So the 240 megawatts or so of generated power from the Array will end up in the grid by using the older power plant infrastructure.

This creates a fixed-rate energy plan for the Mill, and will give jobs, hopefully, to people that would otherwise be let go from the older power plant as it closed coal operations. Since the Array can't absolutely secure 100% of the Mill's power requirements, I would say this is more of an energy offset by definition than a true independent solar setup.

Traditional power is the remaining 10%, and from what I know, backup power. Otherwise the input to the Mill has to come from the Array.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 13:00:43

So the mill is not powered by the solar array. Theoretically it could be and perhaps for days at a time, but using the phrase this mill is powered by solar panels is not really correct.

You could say I’m splitting hairs but I don’t think so. In this particular situation, which is very unique, it seems like a very clever technique to solve multiple problems but to say that this is evidence or proof American industry can transition to solar and wind, which is how the articles I read present this situation, is not accurate.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 13:21:16

"So the mill is not powered by the solar array. Theoretically it could be and perhaps for days at a time, but using the phrase this mill is powered by solar panels is not really correct."

It is not directly powered on an "isolated grid", but it is powered by the solar array. The panels produce power and it has to go somewhere. The energy production of the solar panels meets 90-95% of the Mill's power requirements, and is the recipient of that power. However storage is off-site, at the power plant, so no this isn't a closed-solar power system. I'm not sure how you arrive at "theoretically" since the panels are providing measurable power.

If we are going to split-hairs I feel it is incorrect to say the Mill is "not powered" by the solar array. The power is routed into the current lines or grid. Solar energy is produced at a rate that meets, consistently, 90-95% of the Mill's power needs. Not sometimes, all the time, which is a substantial part of this deal.

I think it is proof that a single mill can run off solar, but pro-alternative energy groups will overplay what is out here. Taking the size of the array, which is huge, and then adding in enough to cover the remaining 10% loss is feasible, and might even be done, but they had a year so limits were put into place. To me it's amazing this type of energy production went up in only 13 months.

One major thing to think about though is the acreage. Solar can do the job, but the space needed is astronomical. With the coal plant running down in 20 years, the area needs to come up with alternatives and I think a mix of solar and wind will happen, but only because there is physical space to do so. From what I understand after this 20 year fixed power rate is over they would like to place direct lines and isolate the power system to the Mill.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 15:30:23

Solar energy is produced at a rate that meets, consistently, 90-95% of the Mill's power needs. Not sometimes, all the time, which is a substantial part of this deal.

That can’t possibly be true. At 5 pm in Colorado for 6 months of the year, there can’t possibly be enough electricity generated to power the mill.

Now, if you’re saying the solar array produces enough energy annually equal to 90% of the mills annual usage, that’s a different matter.

But that returns to the never solved and single largest problem in this quest for renewables: energy storage.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Serowbot on 11/02/21 at 16:13:34

If there's one thing solar is perfect for... it's air-conditioning.
Demand is up when the sun is up.
And what's the deal with whether or not it can fully replace conventional power generation?
If it can reduce usage 70 or 80%,... great.
Someday,.. with investment in "infrastructure" some combination of solar, wind, and hydro may make us 100% independent.... if not, what's so bad about 50%.. 60% 80%?...
Poo Pooing the whole thing is stupid.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/02/21 at 17:40:21

7757555D4057320 wrote:

" ... I have never claimed that ... "

Never said it was, YOU.

735351594453360 wrote:

" ... You've been calling me a liar ..."

And a nop, again.

Why do you believe so many things,
are about ,YOU.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/21 at 18:19:22

2533243921343922560 wrote:

Why? Because of people like you.
You thought an electric car battery was equal to 40 cell phones. So when some little 17 child abused kid like Greta tells you solar and wind can replace fossil fuels if Republicans would just get out of the way, you believe her because you can’t think for yourself.
That’s why.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 21:08:42

"Now, if you’re saying the solar array produces enough energy annually equal to 90% of the mills annual usage, that’s a different matter."

Yeah this is pretty much what goes on. It does not provide power at night, it is stored and distributed at night which I would think most people realize about solar. So I would say the Mill is powered by solar and then stored solar energy. From a coal perspective it is powered by currently burning coal, and then stored coal.

"But that returns to the never solved and single largest problem in this quest for renewables: energy storage."

Right. The issue is space in most cases. A company called 8minute has managed to get, if large enough storage is created, a rate of $35 per MW, which in most cases is cheaper than traditional fuel. I imagine we will start seeing more of these storage options, but this goes back to MnSprings point that Cobalt is just as bad as Coal from a mining abuse perspective.

But what do we do about that? Try to convince a new labor force to go into caves instead of out in the open-air?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/02/21 at 21:12:05

"Never said it was, YOU."

Then I was wrong.

"And a nop, again.

Why do you believe so many things,
are about ,YOU."

You have called me a liar multiple times. Not the exact word "liar" but have indicated I am not being truthful multiple times. Even on this subject matter where you claimed I wasn't addressing solar industry fraud.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/03/21 at 04:35:12

It does not provide power at night, it is stored and distributed at night which I would think most people realize about solar. So I would say the Mill is powered by solar and then stored solar energy. From a coal perspective it is powered by currently burning coal, and then stored coal.

You seem to know a lot about this and I know you’ve been involved with a lot of Colorado activities but I wanna make sure I’m clear on this. You’re telling me the solar array that powers the mill in Pueblo Colorado has some type of adjoining energy storage system where energy is stored at peak hours and then used in off-peak hours to power the mill with no interruption and with only 5 to 10% electricity coming from the grid? Is that what you’re saying?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Serowbot on 11/03/21 at 09:09:32

675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:

Why? Because of people like you.
You thought an electric car battery was equal to 40 cell phones.

Sorry,.. you didn't get the joke.
Did you buy into my "Birds aren't Real" post too?...

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/03/21 at 09:58:05

Guess not. I think you believe anything Greta tells you so how was I to know you weren’t fooled again.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/03/21 at 11:08:49

"You’re telling me the solar array that powers the mill in Pueblo Colorado has some type of adjoining energy storage system where energy is stored at peak hours and then used in off-peak hours to power the mill with no interruption and with only 5 to 10% electricity coming from the grid? Is that what you’re saying?"

It has an adjoining storage system that is not on-site, but as you have stated the energy storage is part of the problem. The total MW hour storage is unknown to me at this time but I will find out when I can. It's not enough to run the Mill multiple days for sure.

My understanding is that the system at this time is working like any other grid-connected system. It exceeds demand during the day and the excess is essentially purchased by the Power Company. They store that extra energy if it's not being used by other consumers on the grid. To my knowledge at this time there is not separate lines for solar isolated power as there isn't a need for it.

So I agree that articles saying the solar array powers the Mill are not exactly transparent, as up to 10% is provided by coal, and there isn't enough solar power storage to do something like run the mill several days with no alternative power input. But with minimal and available increase in the array the power created could power the Mill 100%. For how long at any one time is then the next question.

An example I use is showing the surface area of all those panels over all those acres of land. Then taking that same square footage of coal power they can supply an entire city, and then some, while solar powers one customer. When we add more space for the power storage the space gets even larger, but with each passing year this gets mitigated. Battery storage is continually getting more efficient.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by MnSpring on 11/03/21 at 11:29:26

1F3F3D35283F5A0 wrote:

" ...You have called me a liar multiple times ... "

What, did you, 'Infer', something I said ?
Because I did NOT say that !

49696B637E690C0 wrote:

" ... You have called me a liar multiple times. Not the exact word "liar" but have indicated I am not being truthful multiple times. Even on this subject matter where you claimed I wasn't addressing solar industry fraud.

Again, you, 'Inferred' I said something.

Can you tell me where/what/when I, SAID, you
"...(weren't) wasn't addressing solar industry fraud..."

(Or perhaps you, 'Inferred' that ?)

\ Even on this subject matter where you claimed I wasn't addressing solar industry fraud.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/21 at 11:35:20

It's not reasonable to expect to eliminate ICE engines and go with Ecars. Power to Charge them has to come from somewhere. What happens when it's freezing and the interstate turns into a parking lot? Stuck with a battery that already took you to work and then to the store and Now you're in a several hours long parking lot.. Running the heater..
The wrecked doesn't have a five gallon jug of electricity.
Not saying the technology Won't exist, but this fevered push, trying to Force it into existence isn't healthy for the economy or the lives of the people.
Calm DOWN, people. I know, free market pressures, people chasing profits by producing products that are Desirable that people will buy isn't what you want. You want to Force it on everyone. I know, it's
For our own good..
It's tyranny

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/03/21 at 12:46:46

Battery storage is continually getting more efficient.

It seems far more likely battery storage capacity is nearing its peak as opposed to being in its infancy. Battery storage technologies have been around for a very long time and they’ve been research for a very long time.
We will certainly find some efficiencies with the law of diminishing returns comes in a play. We’re not going to find some magic technology that allows incredible amounts of energy to be stored in relatively small areas and transported over long distances.

There are no dilithium crystals as we see in Star Trek.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/03/21 at 13:49:45

"What, did you, 'Infer', something I said ?
Because I did NOT say that !"

It was my interpretation, I already stated you "did not say that" or to be specific, "exactly that" so lets include my entire sentence:

You have called me a liar multiple times. Not the exact word "liar" but have indicated I am not being truthful multiple times.

So no I am not saying you called me specifically the word "liar" and only the word "liar", in exclusivity, with the exemption of all other known words.

You indicated I was being untruthful, and to me that is equal to being called a liar. Inferring I won't pay you money I said I would, saying it sounds like multiple people use this account, things like that, to me, is equivalent to calling me a liar without using exactly those 4 letters in exactly that sequence to form exactly that word.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/03/21 at 13:57:36

"It seems far more likely battery storage capacity is nearing its peak as opposed to being in its infancy. Battery storage technologies have been around for a very long time and they’ve been research for a very long time.
We will certainly find some efficiencies with the law of diminishing returns comes in a play. We’re not going to find some magic technology that allows incredible amounts of energy to be stored in relatively small areas and transported over long distances."

I was told this years ago when NiMH batteries was a s good as things were going to get. I think you are right, to a degree, that we will reach a maximum on battery performance but each iteration of the iPhone alone indicates to me that we still have some progress coming.

The $35/MWh was said to be unreachable and here it is. So while I agree that we simply have too high of energy demands to run the planet on "renewables" alone, I feel there is often predictions of how impossible things are that have been proven wrong by now. I was told by multiple people that a solar array can't create enough power to run an industrial facility, then told it would take decades to build and in 13 months 90% of this was sitting in front of my own eyes. At that point I have to take a step back and see what actually is possible tomorrow and not focus on what was possible last week.

I think JoG is right when he states we shouldn't have a rush to implementation as it will most likely give us an inferior outcome.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/21 at 18:25:57

I watched music go from records to eight tracks, then cassette ,,it was small and worked great,, I figured that was it.. Then geniuses figured out how to make a plastic and foil sammich and make a laser that would fit in tiny little clamshell and aim and read,, Ohh MuGAAWD! And That was IT! Nobody can beat that!
Aaand now a gizmo so small that losing it in a wrinkle in a pocket is possible and it has capacity for more than my whole album collection.
We've seen battrees go from alkaline to NiCad, and on and on. We can't know what some genius might invent.
I don't think it's smart to push too hard. Wouldn't it just suck to build up infrastructure to deal with a type of battree, only to discover a new battree that can't use That type of charge setup?
Quit trying to shove it down our throat, let it develop.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/04/21 at 05:58:32

From an article I found on this topic that presents the issue well.

There are no subsidies and no engineering from Silicon Valley or elsewhere that can close the physics-centric gap in energy densities between batteries and oil (Figure 2). The energy stored per pound is the critical metric for vehicles and, especially, aircraft. The maximum potential energy contained in oil molecules is about 1,500% greater, pound for pound, than the maximum in lithium chemistry. That’s why aircraft and rockets are powered by hydrocarbons. And that’s why a 20% improvement in oil propulsion (eminently feasible) is more valuable than a 200% improvement in batteries (still difficult).

https://www.hartenergy.com/exclusives/physics-limits-green-dreams-184328

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/04/21 at 08:01:34

This is a good article. I try to explain the Betz and Shockley Queisser limits to people and they shrug it off.

Like I said, we can run a Mill off solar but that same physical space run by coal can power a whole city. Now if we start placing panels on every roof we would eventually meet a point where solar can keep up and the space used for the power plant operations could hold batteries. But this means tons of vertical placement.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/04/21 at 08:52:05

I had the good fortune to work for a company that supplied key raw materials to wind turbine manufacturers so I learned a lot about that industry and I’ve known wind turbines are rapidly approaching their maximum effectiveness. I didn’t know all the details but I knew internal combustion engines likewise have a similar peak.

Those darn three thermodynamic laws sure get in the way of things.

Speaking of those three laws (and diving into theology) before the fall of man, the three laws of thermodynamics could not have existed. When God banished Adam and Eve from the garden and said that they would need to work etc. the reality was thermodynamics was put into play. Before that there was no decay, there was no second law of thermodynamics specifically. It’s something to ponder.

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Serowbot on 11/04/21 at 09:17:32

Presented in a kinda' fun way.. ;)
Will Today's Electric Cars Soon Be OBSOLETE?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw1uErr0n3Q[/media]

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by Eegore on 11/04/21 at 09:38:42

"Speaking of those three laws (and diving into theology) before the fall of man, the three laws of thermodynamics could not have existed. When God banished Adam and Eve from the garden and said that they would need to work etc. the reality was thermodynamics was put into play. Before that there was no decay, there was no second law of thermodynamics specifically. It’s something to ponder."

Couldn't we pick any religion and just indicate the laws of thermodynamics didn't exist at that time if we have no means of extracting evidence?

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by WebsterMark on 11/04/21 at 09:58:31

Sure, if there’s a story about a steady state existing that suddenly became under the control of thermodynamics, then sure I guess you could.

I was just passing along my insight and perspective on a unique explanation I developed one time. I’ve not read anyone else expanding on that idea.

I came about it one time because there is a phrase in the New Testament that “creation itself yearns to be free from the bondage of decay”. That struck me as indicating creation was at one point NOT under the bondage of decay. The bondage of decay seems to me a perfect illustration of the second law or entropy. So I theorized that until the fall of man as recorded in genesis there were is no decay, a steady state existed if you will.

Seems better fit for a different thread that doesn’t involve car batteries!

Title: Re: Mining Coal is Bad
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/21 at 10:49:25

69494B435E492C0 wrote:

Like I said, we can run a Mill off solar but that same physical space run by coal can power a whole city. Now if we start placing panels on every roof we would eventually meet a point where solar can keep up and the space used for the power plant operations could hold batteries. But this means tons of vertical placement.

Solar has its place. It is something that bridges the gap,for the folks who Really want to live Out There, and it supplements ,for some, and lets them save a few bucks, sell some power, but COME ON, it's not something we need to have a tribe of screaming crazies forcing on us.

How about you realize the world is NOT burning up because of SUVs?
Just Quit with the fear.