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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch release arm suddenly no give /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1635229335 Message started by lulublacksheep on 10/25/21 at 23:22:15 |
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Title: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/25/21 at 23:22:15 Howdy, So my husband bought me a bobbed out ‘02 Savage that sat for several years. Before he gave it to me he let someone ride it who immediately threw it into a curb. I love this bike, but it has been one repair after another. I’ll get it running 100%, then something else will act up. I’ve managed to solve all the problems, until now. First it wouldn’t shift into neutral with the engine on. It would jump right to gear, but I’d throw out the kickstand to kill the engine, and I could then put it in neutral. Then after a few rides, it wouldn’t shift up at all. It also wouldn’t completely disengage, and would still move forward in neutral. I noticed my clutch cable was frayed down to one wire. I thought that was my problem so I went to repair it with an emergency repair cable for the weekend trip I was on. But then realized the end of the release arm was pushed all the way down below the two lines on the crank case. The arm wouldn’t move up at all. I took the crank case off and the arm assembly worked like it was supposed to. I took the release plate off and inspected it. I go to put the case back on for more testing, and it will barely go on because there’s no clearance between the pushrod and the release cam. I’ve tightened the spring bolts to 10 foot lbs, but the release plate seems to be extended out so much farther than what I see in photos and videos. I’m guessing my next move is to take the clutch basket apart and inspect everything. I’m thinking about testing it with a shorter pushrod, but what would cause the release plate to be extended out enough for me to need a shorter pushrod? That’s why I feel like I need to inspect the plates and maybe the pressure plate… etc. This all happened a couple months after I changed the oil so I don’t suspect that’s the issue. This is my first bike and I wouldn’t be surprised if I was too hard on the clutch when I was learning. I also don’t downshift with my speed which I’m guessing may be a problem. There wasn’t any kind of metal shavings though. Or discoloration that I could see. Also… the bike is shifting up and down fine now on the lift. I haven’t ridden it since the clutch stopped fully disengaging because I also have no front brake. But that’s a whole other issue. I’m just about ready for something that wants to be ridden as much as I want to ride. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:08:40 Howdy to you Lulu. I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are seeing. "But then realized the end of the release arm was pushed all the way down below the two lines on the crank case. The arm wouldn’t move up at all." Any way you could post a picture of the condition you describe? Preferably with the clutch cable disconnected from the lever arm on the clutch cover. Just let the weight of a crescent wrench hold the lever in place, like this. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:13:45 Can you post a picture of your release plate? Like this. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:21:25 Can you inspect the hole in the "push piece" (Pc 19)? Remove the pushrod and look in the hole. Make sure that no one has tried to extend the pushrod length by inserting a small ball or rod into the hole. This hole, in the center of the picture. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:33:06 Can you check the number of plates in your clutch. You should have 6 fiber plates and 5 steel plates. Sometimes, folks try to fix a slipping lutch by adding extra plates. That eats up all the release travel. Make sure you don't have an extra steel plate in there, or an extra fiber plate. Notice that the outermost fiber plate is different. It is a bit thicker than other fiber plates. Is your outer fiber plate a bit thicker? Can you post a picture like this one? |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:40:35 You have already removed the release plate so you know how to do that. If you remove the release plate, you should be able to push the pressure disk all the way in with your fingers. If you push it all the way in it will hit the hard stops in the basket. Then you can check the pressure disk travel with feeler gages. It should be about .16" (4mm). Can you check that and post a photo, like this? |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by TheSneeze on 10/26/21 at 13:43:56 You really can't pay for better help than you find on this forum! You guys are awesome! |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 13:59:38 The outer fiber plate has a larger inside diameter to accommodate the wave washer & seat. If that outer plate gets mixed up the wave washer & seat will be sandwiched between a fiber plate and the adjacent steel plate. That's why it's important that the special outer plate (pc 9) be in the correct location. If the wave washer and seat get pinched between plates, it will eat up all the clutch travel, like the problem you are experiencing. The wave washer assembly should look like this when installed correctly in the special outer plate. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by Tocsik on 10/26/21 at 14:00:06 6B7451565C55594A53380 wrote:
I agree with you so much, and say the same thing in my head every day. Amazing wealth of knowledge here and willingness to share it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 14:05:52 Is the special washer (pc 7) in the correct location. It's easy to mix it up with the washer (pc 2) that goes behind the basket. If those washers are reversed it might prevent the basket from rotating independent of the hub. Make sure there is only one washer between the hub and basket. It should look like this. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 14:07:10 Is the hub nut tight? This seems like an unlikely source of your problem but hey, ya never know. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 14:17:52 If you can post the photos I have requested, it should help us zero in on your problem. Be careful with the condition you are presently experiencing. Don't force the hand lever. It will break the release cam or possibly the engine case bracket for the clutch cable. You don't want to do either. If you have been yanking hard on the lever, I would inspect the cable bracket on the engine case to make sure it isn't cracked, and I would replace the release cam (pc 23) regardless of how it looks. If a small fracture has started, it could be catastrophic. This is the cable bracket I am referring to. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 14:19:15 This is what happens when a release cam breaks. All that stuff will go through the primary drive. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by ohiomoto on 10/26/21 at 15:01:35 05030C70727571410 wrote:
And to prove his point, the hub on my bike was loose. :) |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/21 at 15:16:20 Hey Ohiomoto, what symptoms did you have when the nut was loose? Ooooooops! Forgot on thing. Make sure that someone hasn't installed a steel plate out against the Hub. The special outer fiber plate (pc 9) runs against the aluminum flange on the hub. Inserting a steel plate between the hub and the outer fiber will eat up all the travel. You don't want this. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by ohiomoto on 10/26/21 at 15:24:58 The clutch wouldn't fully engage or take up the cable "slack" sometimes. Basically the engagement arm wasn't going down when I released the clutch. I also found that it would fully engage it I pushed the lever out with my fingers. Like it had a grooved basket but I wouldn't expect to see that on a sub 30 hp street bike. I found the basket was loose and it actually still has a bit of play after I tightened it up. I'll have to get it apart and check the bearing and washers sometime. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by Hiko on 10/26/21 at 17:15:43 544B6E69636A66756C070 wrote:
I was just thinking the same thing!! :) |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/26/21 at 17:35:10 Wow!!! You guys do rock!! I just got home from work and I’m going over all your suggestions. I’ll get in the shop tomorrow and post pics and go over these steps. Also I’m not sure if I made this clear with my first post… the clutch has been running fine. Until it wasn’t. I know the previous owner and I’m certain he never went in the crank case. I say he bobbed it out… all he did was remove the fenders, air box and muffler. And changed the tail light. I doubt he did anything other than that and oil changes. But I’ll get my eyes back on it tomorrow. Thanks again!!! |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/27/21 at 14:42:22 Ok folks... I hope this is ok. I made a video showing the crescent wrench test, plus the things that are confusing me. Heres a link... https://youtu.be/gL_PBlI8ZFc I'll also just add photos. I measured the pressure plate travel and it's 4mm. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/27/21 at 14:47:22 :D |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/27/21 at 14:50:34 Here's the crescent on the arm. (also in action in the video) Maybe I'm just totally confused about the pressure plate tension... and the mechanics. But I'm stumped. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/27/21 at 15:02:58 This is how far extended the pressure plate is at 10 ft lbs. This is what has me stumped. I've tightened it enough to engage the clutch and lock the basket, while still being able to push the pressure plate in with the amount of force i would imagine the spring and release cam will have, and disengage the clutch basket. But it being out this far, I'm not even able to put the case back on. I have to tighten it darn near all the way to be able to get the case back on, and the arm still has no play. This was going on before I ever took the case off, and I suspect it may be what broke my clutch cable. But it ran fine for months. Until it didn't. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by verslagen1 on 10/27/21 at 16:09:02 OK, let's try and unconfuse you. [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] Clutch failure can have many causes. Cheapest fix is to readjust. Start with the cable, then the throw out rod. The clutch pack screws have to be tightened all the way for the clutch to operate. If the throw out rod is too long it'll stick out of the pack more than 13mm. When you tighten the cover, it pushes the pack in. And will be too short at 12mm, I regrind them to 12.5mm sticking out of the pack. The more it sticks out, the better mechanical advantage you'll have too. When you pull the clutch lever, the lever is pulled up and the pack is pushed in. The 1st time I re-assembled my clutch it was jammed and wouldn't operate. Perhaps the washers weren't properly aligned. All I did was take it off the bike and shift the plates side to side, then reinstalled it. BTW, while you're there, measure the cam chain adjuster, the amount that the plunger sticks out shouldn't be more than 19mm. More than that and it starts damaging the housing the plunger is in. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/27/21 at 16:37:36 “The clutch pack screws have to be tightened all the way for the clutch to operate.” So what you’re saying is I need to tighten the spring bolts all the way in? Correct? “If the throw out rod is too long it'll stick out of the pack more than 13mm. When you tighten the cover, it pushes the pack in. And will be too short at 12mm, I regrind them to 12.5mm sticking out of the pack. The more it sticks out, the better mechanical advantage you'll have too.” Is the throw out rod the pushrod? By sticking out of the pack, do you mean measure how far it sticks out of the push piece? When you pull the clutch lever, the lever is pulled up and the pack is pushed in. “BTW, while you're there, measure the cam chain adjuster, the amount that the plunger sticks out shouldn't be more than 19mm. More than that and it starts damaging the housing the plunger is in.” I’ll tighten the bolts all the way in and try it. I’ll measure the cam chain adjuster also. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by verslagen1 on 10/27/21 at 18:06:49 7E677E6764737C66677179776666120 wrote:
yes Quote:
yes Quote:
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/21 at 21:47:28 Good job Lulu. Thanks for the pictures. You are right, your release plate is waaaaaaaaaaay too far out. You have tightened the "spring bolts" to 10 ft-lbs. That's one-half ft-lb more than the spec. Why hasn't your release plate gone in all the way to the spring posts on the pressure disk??? I find it's best to tighten those bolts gradually, in a criss-cross pattern, about 1/2 turn at a time. That draws the release plate in evenly. Once it is all the way in, and hard against the spring posts on the pressure disk, you can use the torque wrench to do the final tightening of each bolt. There is an o-ring on the push piece. That o-ring is a very tight fit into the transmission input shaft. It can be very difficult to get that o-ring started into the transmission input shaft. This is the o-ring I am referring to. See it on the end of the push piece. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/21 at 21:50:17 If that o-ring is damaged, or swollen, or has the wrong cross section, it will bind in the input shaft. If the bore in the input shaft is damaged or gouged, it will cause the o-ring to bind. This is the bore I am referring to. It's in the center of the transmission input shaft. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/21 at 21:58:40 So inspect the o-ring and the input shaft. Take a picture of the o-ring and post it so we can see what it looks like. That release plate has to go ALL THE WAY IN until it bottoms out on the spring posts on the pressure disk. The spring post controls the installed height of the spring. So, the aluminum release plate must contact the aluminum spring post. Eight to nine ft-lbs of torque should be enough force to compress the springs and bring the release plate all the way to the spring post. If that's not happening, then I suspect your push piece is bound up in the trans input shaft. BTW, the torque spec is 8 to 9.5 ft-lbs. This is the spring post I am referring to. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/21 at 22:22:29 I can see from your pictures that you have sufficient pressure disk travel, so your problem is most likely associated with the release plate/push piece binding. You can remove the o-ring to trouble shoot the problem, but you can't leave the o-ring out. If you carefully remove the o-ring you can see if you can assemble the release plate and check to see if you can get the clutch adjusted and operating properly. This is just to troubleshoot. The o-ring is necessary for proper oil system operation. Don't leave it out. Once you get the release plate installed correctly (i.e. all the way in), you can install the clutch cover and check to see where your clutch lever is. Use the crescent wrench trick. I wouldn't mess with that pushrod unless the lever does not fall within the marks on the case. If the lever falls between the marks on the case, then hook up the cable and see if you can operate the clutch with the lever on the handlebars. If that works OK, then you know the source of your problem. Get a new o-ring and/or polish up and burrs, gouges etc. Versy is spot on with his recommendation about the cam chain tensioner. The picture below shows how to measure the extension. If your tensioner exceeds whatever Versy specified, contact him for the fix. He's got it goin on with the tensioners. Good luck, Mike |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/28/21 at 14:34:11 Ok I got the release plate all the way in with no problems. O ring is brand new. I just replaced it. The camshaft chain tensioner looks like it’s just a little past 19mm. So that needs to be adjusted huh? |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by lulublacksheep on 10/28/21 at 16:08:29 If I were to modify the cam chain tensioner, how much time/miles does that buy me before I need to actually replace it? Should I just go ahead and buy a new one if I have the hundsky to spend on it? |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by verslagen1 on 10/28/21 at 16:45:28 0C150C1516010E1415030B051414600 wrote:
Double the miles you have now, I'd replace it before it hits that mark. So here's the scenario's... ride, replace chain, ride, replace chain, ride, replace chain, ride, replace chain = 4x new chains ride, modify adjuster, ride, replace chain, ride, change hole, ride, replace chain = 2x new chains Same amount of riding, twice as many chains. And my modified adjuster won't fall apart to destroy your engine. |
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Title: Re: Clutch release arm suddenly no give Post by badwolf on 10/28/21 at 17:17:47 The cam chain tensioner is not wearing, it is the cam chain and follower. But after a certain point (19mm or so) the plunger falls out of the housing and makes a expensive mess. Versy mods them with a second hole out 12mm and a pin so they can't fall out. With his mod you should be able to get 60 -80k miles before replaceing the chain.(and follower) |
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