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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1635063655 Message started by eau de sauvage on 10/24/21 at 01:20:55 |
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Title: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/24/21 at 01:20:55 That a whole bunch of what should be obvious safety protocols were not observed, is already obvious before any inquiry. However, reporting is quickly coming out that an assistant director handed the gun and said it was safe whether that meant a blank or nothing in the chamber I don't know, but there is an implication that Baldwin is blameless in this. But it doesn't look that way to me. It is obviously a real gun and Baldwin would have had training with it to get used to it and how it kicks back. Bottom line is someone hands Baldwin a gun and says it's safe to shoot, would you just fire it at someone? If someone handed you a gun and said the chamber is empty would you point it at yourself and fire? I don't think so. Not only did Baldwin not check the chamber which the person pulling the trigger would be responsible for ultimately, but he didn't even need to fire it at anyone if he was checking it. Seeing as he shot the cinematographer he wasn't shooting as part of a scene, he was just testing the gun. Someone said it's safe, so he tests it by firing it at someone. Baldwin has to take most of the responsibility here if not the blame. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/alec-baldwin-fired-prop-gun-that-killed-crew-member-movie-set-authorities-2021-10-22/ |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/24/21 at 06:30:55 Karma is a b!tch. Back in September of 2017, Alec Baldwin, using his Twitter handle, wrote, “I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone…” The tweet was in response to the killing of a suspect outside of a 7-Eleven. December of 2019, Baldwin tweeted Representative Liz Cheney, “…@RepLizCheney talks and seems so much like her father. I wonder if she’s ever accidentally shot a good friend of hers in the face.” |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/24/21 at 08:23:32 "... If someone handed you a gun and said the chamber is empty would you point it at yourself and fire? ..." Baldwin 100% at fault. No one ever told you; “Don’t drive with your eyes closed” But you just KNEW, not to. Just as anyone KNOWS, the RESPONSIBILITY rests on the shoulders of the the last person to hold a firearm, and pull the trigger. Well unless one is a totally Arrogant, AZZ HOLE. Who hates firearms, (Unless they can put money in his pocket) Hates people that use firearms, (evidenced by previous remarks/statements) Many people, ‘culpable’, But the LAST PERSON, the person RESPONSIBLE. IS THE PERSON, that committed MURDER. A person, that hates guns. That hates people that use them. Whose is the the Ultimate Person RESPONSIBLE For killing ANOTHER HUMAN. That person will not spend one second in jail. It is a perfect example of the ultimate. "I say one thing, and do another" “Do as I say, not as I do” "I can, you can't" Ultra, Liberal, Dumb F UCKING Idiot, Fairy Dust Sprinkling, SOCIALIST ! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/24/21 at 09:06:59 An armorer handed the gun to Mr. Baldwin... if Baldwin had then opened the chamber and removed the ammo to check it and reloaded it , it would be against safety protocol. An actor, no matter personal experience, is not legally qualified to certify a weapon safe. On the other hand,... actors are supposed to aim at least 6ft to the side of any persons on set before firing. But how many movies have you seen where a gun is pointed at the camera and fired?... It's called a POV shot. The gun was supposed to be empty... I say the armorer is at fault. Gun safety is his sole responsibility. Particularly if he said the gun was completely empty. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/24/21 at 14:43:45 7167706D75606D76020 wrote:
And that would be wrong. If it is to be a shot, at a person, then the, 'blank' protocol is in in play. And the actor is SUPPOSE TO, follow that protocol. When the actor is to do a, 'point at camera', shot. AND THEIR IS A PERSON, behind the camera you are pointing a gun at them. Plain and simple. The Actor, BALDWIN, Is Responsible. The person doing the shooting is responsible ! Not someone who hands you something and says, 'go ahead'. Is the armor responsible, sure, they have culpability in the shooting. The SHOOTER, BALDWIN, He is the one responsible for HIS actions. Unless, one believes that Harvey Weinstein's underwear was to tight, and that is why he had to take it off in front of young girls. Or that Garrison Keillor, consoling a woman by touching her on her back, was SEXUAL HARASSMENT! Or that Franklin's grabbing a woman's boobs, and PHOTOGRAPHED doing it, was NOT, SEXUAL HARASSMENT! Or Clinton, getting a BJ in the oval office, was ALL, 'her' fault ! "... The criminal justice system also considers individuals who cause the deaths of other people through negligence or recklessness to be criminals. Under the criminal justice system, these criminals are charged with manslaughter. ..." |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/24/21 at 15:11:21 @Serow, Point taken about the armourer, but that only means that Baldwin should have insisted that the gun handler show him the empty chamber before he starts shooting at people. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/24/21 at 15:36:25 Was the shooting part of a scene in the movie or was he screwing around? Regardless, Baldwin is a terrific actor, one of my favorites. He’s in a lot of great movies and iconic scenes. But he’s a hateful little pr!ck so the only good thing to come out of this tragedy is this POS will disappear from the public scene from now on. Imagine his comments if Dana Loesch had accidentally shot someone while filming a commercial about a gun. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/24/21 at 22:23:27 "An armorer handed the gun to Mr. Baldwin... if Baldwin had then opened the chamber and removed the ammo to check it and reloaded it , it would be against safety protocol. An actor, no matter personal experience, is not legally qualified to certify a weapon safe. On the other hand,... actors are supposed to aim at least 6ft to the side of any persons on set before firing." Where did you get this information? I am aware of remote camera, ballistic coverings for staff etc. but no 6' rule. "Point taken about the armourer, but that only means that Baldwin should have insisted that the gun handler show him the empty chamber before he starts shooting at people." If it's empty he can't shoot the blanks. Am I missing something here? I agree with MnSpring to a degree. The person firing the weapon is ultimately responsible for the action. This does change somewhat when dealing outside the realm of normal firearm behavior. For instance "Never aim a weapon at something you do not intend to kill or destroy." has very limited application on a movie set. Many things are shot at with zero intention of death or destruction. I think the main question at this time is: If an Actor is told by the lead armorer that a weapon is cold, is there a reasonable expectation for that Actor to unload and confirm? If so, during large scale war films should every person handling a weapon be trained prior and confirm every round of ammunition themselves? I know one weapons handler that works in film but can not contact them at this time. I do know specific licensing is involved and State reciprocity comes into play from past conversations. Once I can I will attempt to get information. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/25/21 at 09:48:28 Mn,.. let's say you are the armorer on a movie set, and responsible for the safety of all weapons in the film. A shootout is being prepared and there are 11 people assigned a total of 17 guns and rifles by you. Do you expect or want these people to open the guns and inspect them after you have certified them to be safe? Many of these actors may have never fired a real gun in their lives and never want to. To put it another way,... would you trust Alec Baldwin to reinspect a gun you just certified as safe? Are you sure he can tell the difference between a blank and a wadcutter? |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/25/21 at 10:25:55 Maybe we just better wait until some more facts come in because were just making guesses at what happened. It seems odd the person behind the camera was shot. Certainly possible they were doing a POV shot but I wouldn’t imagine a POV shot was occurring without some advanced planning and protection regardless if it was a blank or not. Something smells. Let’s see what the investigation yields assuming they make it public. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/25/21 at 15:19:51 @eegore, " If it's empty he can't shoot the blanks. Am I missing something here? I'm meaning empty of live rounds, when handing a real gun that is supposed to be cold, to an actor, the actor should want to eyeball either a gun with empty chambers, for post effects shooting, or eyeball the gun being loaded with actual blanks. Depends on how much one take personal responsibility for one's actions. Meanwhile Don Junior shows his class... https://shopdonjr.com/collections/mens-apparel/products/guns-dont-kill-people-mens-apparel-1 |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/25/21 at 15:22:54 "I'm meaning empty of live rounds, when handing a real gun that is supposed to be cold, to an actor, the actor should want to eyeball either a gun with empty chambers, for post effects shooting, or actually eyeball the gun being loaded with actual blanks." I see. Well I would imagine it would be cheaper to go digital effects than it will to educate every gun wielding actor about firearms. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/25/21 at 16:49:08 ...and as far as "never point a gun"... movies are the exception. How many times have you seen an actor come up behind someone and point a gun to his back? So common it's a cliche'... or to his head. This is why they have armorers... |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Hiko on 10/26/21 at 00:56:05 This is an interesting conversation even from this side of the world Armorers are responsible for handing over safe weapons it has been said and the gun was declared to be safe There is fault number one Mr Baldwin was handling a real firearm no one else therefore he was responsible for ensuring it was safe Fault number two Mr Baldwin is in double trouble as he was responsible for site safety it has been reported Aircraft are signed off by maintenance as being airworthy but pilots still do preflight checks as they should Power companies make declarations about power outages but maintenance electricians still check before they risk themselves and that is all as it should be Safety has multiple layers of responsibility in many fields I accept that different countries have different rules and I will be interested in the outcome of this tragedy |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Hiko on 10/26/21 at 01:22:46 Today I saw an interview of an American movie set armorer describing a previous movie set tragedy There are three classes of ammunition. Dummy rounds Blank rounds and Live rounds. Dummy rounds have no powder in them but have shot inside instead so by shaking them it can be identified as a dummy round They have a projectile These are used when the rounds are visible such as in a belt or revolver Blank rounds have powder but no projectile and are used when flash and noise are required Live rounds are not permitted on movie sets in his experience The tragedy occurred because a dummy round was used that had a primer in the case which was not supposed to be there The primer had enough force to push the projectile into the barrel where it lodged The weapon was next used the next day with a blank round which pushed the projectile out of the barrel killing the actor in front Several failures here The primer should not have been there The barrel was not checked for being clear both by armorer and shooter |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/26/21 at 05:21:44 All we know with certainty right now is Alec Baldwin is a hero to the left wing media and entertainment culture so someone else will certainly take the fall. Let you imaginations wander if Tucker Carlson had killed someone shooting a firearms commercial…. That much we know. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/26/21 at 07:27:39 I agree that the public response will differ depending on who shoots a gun. The thing about criminal charges is there needs to be a degree of intent, or complete negligence. Lack of knowledge on Baldwin's part is not equal to intending damage, and may not even be considered complete negligence if a prop-master was assigned the safety procedures. Civil lawsuits I can see being successful, but criminal may be tricky due to the lack of intent. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/26/21 at 07:43:08 08282A223F284D0 wrote:
Because Baldwin IS, a UL, FDS, Arrogant Darling of Socialists. The part of the LAW, (...negligence or recklessness...) will be totally Ignored. Gonna get the 'T' shirt that says: 'Guns don't kill people Baldwin Does' |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/26/21 at 08:34:09 4E6D5073716A6D64030 wrote:
Sure... Billionaire son hawking cheap T-shirts making fun of tragedy. Knock yerself out PS... answer my question |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/26/21 at 09:22:18 Gonna get the 'T' shirt that says: 'Guns don't kill people Baldwin Does' Might sell well. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/26/21 at 11:00:52 3620372A32272A31450 wrote:
“…you are the armorer on a movie set…” You mean that one ? Just as a person who has declared a Airplane/Car/Boat/Carnival Ride/etc, ’safe’ to operate. That person has absolutely NO control over what gas/oil/etc, someone else puts in. Or how that thing is used. A armorer on a movie set, is the first line of, checking. Baldwin was the last !!!!!! “…Are you sure he can tell the difference between a blank and a wadcutter?…” That would be his, REQUIREMENT, if the role required the use of a firearm. Just as a actors, REQUIREMENT, would be to know about anything else, that actor used, in the job of acting. Baldwin is at fault, Criminally and Civic. Others are also, at fault. Yet Baldwin is the last person in line. Baldwin IS Responsible. Yet the UL, FDS, Socialists will not let him be charged. The same way several years ago, a American Actor, PROVED her, ‘Anti American’ politics. and Nothing happened !!!!!!! 3620372A32272A31450 wrote:
OBTW Sell that NASTY, 'Gun', you say you have yet ? After all their is NO REASON you NEED it !!!!! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/26/21 at 13:59:08 An associate that has worked with firearms in film responded to my inquiry and indicated that live rounds were present on the Rust set, some loose/unaccounted for, which is obviously a huge procedural violation. Also weapons had been left out of an armorer's care. I have not confirmed this. His assessment is that guns that fire blanks should always be used only for that purpose. He will not mix live ammunition guns with prop or blank-firing guns and has gotten in disputes with Directors/Producers regarding this to which he said he has always maintained his policy. If an Actor was aware live-ammo could be present on set I would say there is more culpability than an Actor that is under the impression only blank-ammo is used in the filming. Again movies are different than range-related firearms rules so there are exceptions. If I were filming Saving Private Ryan I am not sure I'd be willing to have every extra go through firearms training. I'd definitely not be ok with camera shots where they are never shown shooting at someone. Maybe it would all have to be digital and actors would just use guns that have no firing pins and all the mechanical functions would have to be CGI. I can't imagine in a film like that people could follow firearm safety rules and still get the same cinematic realism. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/26/21 at 15:40:50 Twitter post from Kristi Alley No AD yells “COLD GUN” The armourer or prop person is supposed to PERSONALLY show you the gun so you can see it is empty for yourself. Then I dry fire it into the ground. I have NEVER been handed a gun by an AD & I’ve been handed 100 guns & I’ve never heard “COLD gun” in 40 years Actor Carl Marino I used a a handgun every day on the set of my show for 9 years. No one ever used those terms. The actors always checked their weapons themselves no matter what anyone on set told them. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/26/21 at 15:49:22 I know two WWII re-enactors. They’ve been to Normandy France and dozens of other places where they do battle scenes using actual weapons with blanks. Each group has the responsibility to ensure blanks are used. The even have automatic weapons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfav7BCffMY |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by oldNslow on 10/26/21 at 18:48:35 My guess, based on what has come out publicly so far. Three criminal indictments. Baldwin - involuntary manslaughter. The Armorer girl - criminally negligent homicide. The director that handed Baldwin the gun - criminally negligent homicide. Baldwin will not go to jail. He'll plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a fine. Possibly some sort of conditional discharge. The other two might well spend some time behind bars if they are convicted, or even if they take a plea. Baldwin may somehow salvage his career but that's not necessarily a given. Hollywood will eventually forgive a lot if someone is a big enough star. But he will have to survive the civil suits for that to even be a possibility. And Baldwin isn't the only one that's going to be sued. If the revolver turns out to be an original peacemaker some shyster will want to dig up Sam Colt and sue him for making the gun. If it's a replica, then whoever manufactured it is going to get sued. A lot of personal injury lawyers are walking around with hard-ons looking at brochures for yachts and private jets right now. The other two are just cannon fodder. They'll never work in that industry again at least. Idiots and guns are a bad combination, The level of idiocy in this affair is truly epic IMO. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/27/21 at 00:06:38 Turns out that Guttierez, the armourer, just outed herself in a podcast. This is her first movie at the main armourer, and her dad helped her figure out how blanks work, check out this largely inchohent rambling from her... "I think loading blanks is, like, the scariest thing to me because I was like.'oh, I don't know anything about it,' but, you know, he taught me that, and eventually by the time I was, like, trying to figure out how to make a specific blank go when you want it to rather than it hitting, like, the empty cylinders and everything - I figured that out on my own." |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/27/21 at 11:19:54 6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:
Geez, that guy is uncoordinated... :-? |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/27/21 at 19:30:43 Mosins and blanks don't play well. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/28/21 at 00:24:01 You could show someone who knew nothing at all about guns a bullet on a cartridge side by side with a blank cartridge that clearly has no bullet. This would take all of one minute. So what I do not understand and probably neither does anyone else, is how the fcuk could it be possible for Guttierez to load a gun with live rounds. Clearly it isn't possible, there must have been someone else involved who handled the gun other than the assistant director. UPDATE: According to court papers, the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, prepared a table on which three guns sat; an assistant director on the film, Dave Halls, grabbed a revolver and declared it to be a “cold gun,” meaning that it had no live ammunition inside and was safe to handle. Then, Mr. Halls handed the gun to Mr. Baldwin, a detective wrote in an affidavit used to obtain a search warrant. Halls said he did not check the gun. How about someone left a loaded gun lying around on a table then Guttierez after preparing one or two guns with blanks saw a gun on a table and put her two down there. Maybe this is a murder! UPDATE: There was only one live round in the gun, with blanks in the other chambers. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/28/21 at 07:45:03 283A2E2D3A3C3E5B0 wrote:
And the excuses of why Baldwin is NOT at fault, abound ! After-all, the Ultra Liberal, Darling of the Socialists, needs a whole bunch of CYA'ing. And in the end, he will 'absolved', by decree of the Fairy Dust Sprinklers. "...Maybe this is a murder! ..." That is a absolute KNOWN. But as Gilda always said ! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/28/21 at 08:20:47 "So what I do not understand and probably neither does anyone else, is how the fcuk could it be possible for Guttierez to load a gun with live rounds. Clearly it isn't possible, there must have been someone else involved who handled the gun other than the assistant director." My understanding is the crew used those guns for practice/recreational shooting that morning. It's obvious now why that should never happen. I can not confirm this. I know from experience people can mix sim rounds and blanks while loading their own weapon and not notice. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/29/21 at 04:52:39 One of my favorite television shows is air disasters where they go back and analyze the causes of an aircraft going down and in virtually every instance it’s a series of mistakes and the accumulation effect of those and not a single event is what brings it down. I suppose that’s what we’re going to find out here. A series of mistakes and safety shortcuts is likely the culprit. If anyone of those events occurred differently, the shooting would not have occurred. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/29/21 at 07:10:01 I agree. In most cases this is what happens from my experience. I will not provide evidence for this. It is rarely, in my experience and research, an assassination. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/21 at 10:06:51 From what was said at the news conferences, the AD took the gun off of a table, one of several guns. And that each person receiving the gun should confirm the gun is cold by firing it into the ground up to 6 times. Every person from the armorer to the actor are responsible. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/29/21 at 10:52:16 I think if Baldwin has any liability at all, it will be as a producer, if he was involved in hiring that armorer. Some producers are only involved in financing,... others run the show, and do hiring, manage budgets, etc... |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/29/21 at 11:50:10 I can't imagine the person pulling the trigger isn't liable at all but maybe if someone came forward and said they assured Baldwin that weapons were "safe" and he didn't have to check them, and somehow prohibited him from doing so. I imagine if I were to shoot a gun at a gun range that a Range Master and overall weapons expert said was unloaded, and I killed someone, I would be liable. I had every opportunity to verify. If someone is at a Halloween party and a retired US Army Armory Sergeant hands them a prop gun and they shoot at somebody, and it kills them, they might be liable. They had every opportunity to verify. If an actor is handed a gun and told it is unloaded by an on-set armorer and he shoots that gun, then kills someone, I would think he would be liable. He had every opportunity to verify. Obviously this was an accident, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to think Baldwin was prohibited from checking a gun he was using. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/29/21 at 14:03:31 Golly Gee Wally, how come a Gun Hating, Freedom Hating Socialist, is working his azz off SPINNING the truth that he, is responsible for HIS ACTIONS. And it is someone else’s fault, that HE KILLED Someone? John Wane, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Roy Rogers, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Gunsmoke, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Paladin, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Maverick, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Bonanza, used S/A firearms in Westerns. Wagon Train, used S/A firearms in Westerns. The Loan Ranger, used S/A firearms in Westerns. And ON, and ON, and on, and on All those people handling Firearms, who were knowledgeable about firearms, and were NOT, DFI, FDS, Gun Hating Socialists. How many, ‘accidents’, did those people have ? How many YEARS did they work ? Golly Gee Wally, Why is it that a Gun Hating, DFI, FDS’ing Socialist, is SPINNING his, RESPONSIBILITY, as someone else’s fault. And all those other people, had no ‘KILLING’ when handling firearms, probably Hundreds of Thousand of times more. But the DFI, FDS, Gun Haters, need not worry. Just as Hanoi Jane, committed TREASON, Nothing was ever done. The gun hating Socialist Baldwin. Will get a pass. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/29/21 at 14:17:31 032321293423460 wrote:
This was said: 1305120F17020F14600 wrote:
Or was that just a example of releasing the fermentation formed by Broccoli in the human body ? |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/29/21 at 14:35:46 Now Guttierez' lawyers release this statement... "Safety is Hannah's number one priority on set. Ultimately this set would never have been compromised if live ammo were not introduced. Hannah has no idea where the live rounds came from... This appears to be subtly implying that Guttierez may have loaded a single live round but it would not have been her fault because there should never have been any live rounds anywhere near her. Which is a pretty poor excuse from the head armourer. It looks like that Baldwin is negligent in hiring incompetents, among other things, the people who had the live rounds on set will get some charges but it's difficult to see how the head armourer can get away with anything other than negligent manslaughter . But then Balwin hired her and allowed unsafe and probably illegal practices. So both of them will be charge. However there is the celebrity aspect, like the way Bruce Jenner, (as he was then) clearly killed a woman with his dangerous and negligent driving. If it were not for footage of the incident filmed from the rear view camera of a passing bus, no one would have known that Jenner way lying. Caitlyn Jenner as she now was shortly after the accident was not even charged for any of the many crimes that are recorded on film. So Guttierez may get away with this due to her guilt being like to Baldwin. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/29/21 at 14:43:18 "Why is it that a Gun Hating, DFI, FDS’ing Socialist, is SPINNING his, RESPONSIBILITY, as someone else’s fault." He isn't. Other people are. "This appears to be subtly implying that Guttierez may have loaded a single live round but it would not have been her fault because there should never have been any live rounds anywhere near her. Which is a pretty poor excuse from the head armourer." Agreed. I have witnessed people load sim rounds into weapons and not realize it multiple times. And these are a different color, some even having a different shape. This does not excuse the behavior, but it happens. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/29/21 at 15:28:02 Not sure why the film industry doesn't just use guns that only fire blanks. Apart from that it is ironic that Guttierez is trying to blame the producers and whinging about how she couldn't do her job properly, because to actually be a genuine head armourer and take on the full responsibility means that it is necessary to be an utter and complete badass and somehow Guttierez just doesn't fit that profile. So again I guess that is on the producers for hiring her. Or what about the organisation who represents and licenses or certifies armourers, as she is clearly incompetent. http://https://i.postimg.cc/pVsNZKrN/gut.jpg Not very badass! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/29/21 at 16:34:14 "Not sure why the film industry doesn't just use guns that only fire blanks." Typically this is the case. But if one wanted footage of an actual bullet hitting a target then live ammo obviously would be used. Mixing ammunition types is bad practice, this production seems to be an exception to industry standard practices. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by verslagen1 on 10/30/21 at 08:07:10 There was also mentioned that this might be a diversity hire due requirements needed for Oscar nomination. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/30/21 at 08:53:31 Best armorer,.. right up there with best food truck Oscar... ;D |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/30/21 at 14:45:05 There was also mentioned that this might... Priceless. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 10/30/21 at 18:49:06 @Eegore, I have no idea what the regulations say but common sense would be that there is the armourer who has control of the guns at all times. That person is responsible for preparing the guns which means loading the blanks. You say you've seen people not notice, but this is the armourer we're talking about. Just the already undisputed fact that the gun was handed to Baldwin by Halls, shouldn't even be possible. If it's actually allowed for the armourer to lose control of the gun, then that's insane, and it would mean that anyone in that chain of control could commit a murder. That doesn't make any sense because how could the armourer take responsibility unless he/she maintained control of device. And yet because Halls has already admitted he handed off the gun that would imply that it's OK, otherwise someone would have pointed this out and there'd already be arrests. So it looks like it's the actual regulations that are at fault here, plus of course everyone involved. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 10/31/21 at 05:10:42 Odds are pretty good they were drinking and smoking regularly. It’s a low budget movie out in the middle of nowhere, what would you expect? The only reason this is still a story is because the press is trying to do everything they can to protect their liberal icon Alec Baldwin. Again, imagine the difference if the same circumstances had occurred and the shooter was Tucker Carlson or maybe Sean Hannity and Fox news and began pointing the finger of blame to the staff and their preparation and safety training. The accumulation of bunched up panties might have caused a singularity and the entire earth would collapse into the newly developed black hole. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/31/21 at 08:32:31 "I have no idea what the regulations say but common sense would be that there is the armourer who has control of the guns at all times. That person is responsible for preparing the guns which means loading the blanks. You say you've seen people not notice, but this is the armourer we're talking about." Being an armorer doesn't seem to reduce ammunition handling error. An example is people leaving their kid in a car-seat in the back of a car. It happens all the time, most never end up hurting a child but we hear once and a while where one dies. Very few parents think they could ever forget their own child in the back of a car, but data and dead children indicate otherwise. It may be less likely an armorer will load the wrong ammunition, but it does happen. As for regulations I don't know what they are. I'm not sure how in a large production war film one person could personally handle every piece of ammo, so there must be room for assistants at a minimum. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 10/31/21 at 08:34:09 "Odds are pretty good they were drinking and smoking regularly. It’s a low budget movie out in the middle of nowhere, what would you expect?" I agree. I helped my cousin on the set of the movie "From Dusk til Dawn" years ago and her first task was to make sure a hotel room bathtub was full of ice and alcohol at all times. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/31/21 at 08:40:27 5C4E5A594E484A2F0 wrote:
" ...The only reason this is still a story is because the press is trying to do everything they can to protect their liberal icon Alec Baldwin. ..." Ray Charlies could have seen, the comments, on private one sided forums, and the majority of the public Press, are to remove any blame from anybody. They totally prove that. The UL Socialistic media wants to, 'absolve' everyone. Cause 'anybody could have ...', and nobody is responsible. We all know the UL DFI FDS Baldwin will be absolved of any responsibility. As I type this, watching meet the press, and the Gov, who is loosing. He was allow to SPIN, encouraged to SPIN, given softball questions so he could SPIN. It was just a FREE Political Ad. (With the required; 'SLAM the former POTUS') And Raffensperger was asked leading questions. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/31/21 at 08:58:32 774542535445526D41524B200 wrote:
The only reason this is still a story in because Baldwin owned Trump on SNL... Who's panties are bunched?... |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 10/31/21 at 10:37:12 584E59445C49445F2B0 wrote:
Kinna like, the multiple Comedians, who OWNED, Hillary Clinton, for 25+ years on SNL ? |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 10/31/21 at 14:26:34 7A596447455E5950370 wrote:
Kinna like, the multiple Comedians, who OWNED, Hillary Clinton, for 25+ years on SNL ? [/quote] Yes,.. except Trump doesn't have the stones to take it. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 11/01/21 at 04:44:47 7066716C74616C77030 wrote:
The only reason this is still a story in because Baldwin owned Trump on SNL... Who's panties are bunched?...[/quote] No one watches SNL. What everyone saw were short clips on the news. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 11/01/21 at 04:47:19 7C6A7D60786D607B0F0 wrote:
Kinna like, the multiple Comedians, who OWNED, Hillary Clinton, for 25+ years on SNL ? [/quote] Yes,.. except Trump doesn't have the stones to take it.[/quote] You’re right. He doesn’t. He should have just said “I don’t watch SNL anymore now that they won’t have me on.”and he would have crushed them but his ego won’t let him. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 11/06/21 at 20:17:21 Everybody's getting into the spirit now... Halls told investigators that Gutierrez-Reed had shown the gun to him, but he couldn’t remember if she had spun the drum so that he could check every round to ensure they were all dummy rounds, admitting he should have checked every round. Halls' saying that he 'couldn't remember' is as good as admitting that he did not check, because having the armourer prove the rounds are blank would be one of those things you don't forget doing because it's the entire point of the exercise. Like, OK the armourer is giving me the gun and i'm going to hand it to an actor to fire, and I'm going to tell them it's cold because the armourer is going to tell me it's cold, now what is the one single thing that I must make sure I do before I tell someone that it is safe to fire this weapon. So did you check every chamber...'er I can't remember'. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, I don't focus on details. I love how everyone these days is 'oh I don't remember'. So now both Guttierez, and Halls have implicated themselves in negligent manslaughter. It is obvious to me now that Baldwin's responsibility as an actor, not a producer, is, when handed the gun and told 'the gun is cold', he should have said to the assistant director, have you seen every chamber and can you confirm it's cold. That the gun had a single live round and the rest blanks plus the fact that the live round was in the chamber, leads me to believe that this indeed was meant to cause some sort of catastrophic safety shutdown but not kill anyone because I'm guessing that whoever loaded the live round expected the first shot to be a practice shot of some sort. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Serowbot on 11/07/21 at 07:30:07 It's my understanding that a "cold" gun has no ammo in it, blanks or live. Baldwin was was just practicing his draw for a shot. It would be crazy to have blanks firing off for that. Even blanks can be dangerous, not to mention the noise. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 11/08/21 at 07:00:19 "It is obvious to me now that Baldwin's responsibility as an actor, not a producer, is, when handed the gun and told 'the gun is cold', he should have said to the assistant director, have you seen every chamber and can you confirm it's cold." This doesn't help the person pulling the trigger. The only way to know your gun has the appropriate, or no ammunition is to look at it yourself. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 11/08/21 at 09:59:11 4E584F524A5F52493D0 wrote:
I do not believe the word, 'cold', is used to describe a unloaded firearm. A firearm is described as, 'loaded', or, 'not loaded'. If it is 'loaded', the word/s describing the rounds it is loaded with, is added. If it is 'UN-loaded', it does, Not, have any, 'blanks', 'dummy rounds', 'live rounds' in it. Someone using the word, 'cold', (in describing the state of a Firearm) indicates that the person saying that word, is not versed/familiar/skilled/etc/etc/etc/ with firearms. If, a person wished to use the word, 'cold', in describing the state of a firearm. Then that person needed to have, memos/meetings/gatherings/etc, with EVERYBODY, that could possibly interact with a Firearm, in that situation. telling them, What your meaning of, 'cold', means in describing the state of a Firearm. Don't know of that ever happening. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 11/08/21 at 14:53:11 7C5C5E564B5C390 wrote:
This is correct but that was sort of my point. It's not meant to be necessary at all if all the procedures that are already in place, are followed. However it's just another layer that recognises the chain of possession. It's not a failsafe anyone can lie to you but it's still the sort of thing that an individual would want to check. After researching normal gun handling on set, it's obvious that just about every established gun-on-set protocol was ignored. As I guessed earlier the armourer is the only one who should be handling the guns as well as always being in control of who and when a gun is handed off to an actor for the final take. Heads are going to roll. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Hiko on 11/08/21 at 16:17:27 Heads should roll The final responsibility is the person using the gun Which was a real gun BTW If someone tells you you can take a particular corner at 90mph and you try it and crash Who is responsible ? You of course because you are the person in charge. Guns are no different Mr Baldwin should be in real trouble it will be interesting to see if he is. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by eau de sauvage on 11/09/21 at 04:51:14 It has been reported on the https://www.thegatewayfcuktard.com/ that it was a rabid Trump supporter who planted the live round so that Baldwin would be disgraced and Trump could get his revenge. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 11/09/21 at 06:15:53 42504447505654310 wrote:
WOW, Some people think that is funny. Just as the same people think, running around with a facsimile of a Bloody Severed Head, is funny. Yet those same people, get their PANTIES in a, BIG Bunch, when someone says: Someone’s mouth is best used as a holster, for something other than a gun ! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 11/09/21 at 07:37:58 "If someone tells you you can take a particular corner at 90mph and you try it and crash Who is responsible ? You of course because you are the person in charge. Guns are no different Mr Baldwin should be in real trouble it will be interesting to see if he is." Sort of. The unsafe handling of firearms is normal on movie sets. Holding a gun to someone's head is not allowed on an actual gun range. The unsafe handling of motor vehicles is normal on movie sets. Driving 90mph turning a corner crashing through a fruit-stand and jumping a ramp is not something we should do in public. So if a stunt driver has to round a blind corner at speed he does have to trust that the safety team cleared that corner. Even if he looks first, he still has to lose visual returning to the car. This doesn't excuse Baldwin, as verifying a revolver of all things is really easy and it's not like he has to walk away from the area like a driver does. I'm just saying standard safety doesn't not apply on film sets so comparisons to normal life aren't as applicable. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by WebsterMark on 11/09/21 at 08:40:56 I'm just saying standard safety doesn't not apply on film sets so comparisons to normal life aren't as applicable. I agree. Movies are make believe after all. Our Australian friend is just firing into a window to see if he hits anyone and he hit you Mn. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/21 at 12:56:37 It's not difficult to set up a table and have an armorer stand there and walk the people who will be handling weapons through the safe handling of the weapon they will be handling. Checking a weapon to prove it is safe doesn't take much time. The chain of custody in this case appears to have been lax. If someone handed me a gun and announced it is Cold doesn't mean I would aim it at someone and pull the trigger. It's my understanding that on a set, a Hot gun is loaded with anything that goes bang. It COULD be blanks, but it goes bang. A Cold gun may have things in the cylinder that Look like bullets, but are completely inert,and don't go bang. It's been reported that the gun that killed her had been being used for target practice out on the perimeter of the set. Plenty of blame to go around. Baldwin, according to my understanding of the Rules, should not have been handed a weapon that would kill someone. It's also my understanding that ANYONE who has a gun in their hand is responsible for the events they cause because they pulled the trigger. If it's too complicated for an actor to check their weapon to prove it is safe, they have no business holding it. There is no reason why they can't sit next to someone who checks and SHOWS them, right in front of their eyes, it is indeed safe. That it's too time consuming, too costly,, might not be something the friends and loved ones of the Currently and Permanently DEAD would agree with. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Hiko on 11/11/21 at 16:20:17 It is too much to expect airline passengers to do safety checks on the planes they fly on but it is not too much to expect them to ensure their seatbelts are done up. Movie sets are as someone said in a world of make believe Actors are also people who spend their whole life pretending to be someone else . Suddenly the real world confronts them I have held a firearms license for more than 60 years and have used them for much of that time Knowing what is in the chamber at all times is the rock bottom of firearm safety. No matter who is holding the thing. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by verslagen1 on 11/12/21 at 12:49:27 It looks to me that a simple safety procedure should be implemented. All guns should be presented to the actor empty, any rounds expected to be used should be loaded by the actor or with him witnessing the fact when they are unable to. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/21 at 16:47:56 5A495E5F404D4B49421D2C0 wrote:
That sounds very reasonable. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 11/14/21 at 07:01:32 When is SNL, going to do a Parody/Skit, On a DFI. Who hates guns, then KILLS someone, though pure arrogance's. Perhaps Tucker Carlson could due a guest spot ! |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by Eegore on 11/14/21 at 13:53:06 "When is SNL, going to do a Parody/Skit, On a DFI." When is FOX news going to invite Obama or Hillary down to promote their viewpoints and give them equal amounts of on-air time? It makes no sense to have an expectation that any TV show anywhere provide the exact equal amount of on-air content regarding any type of subject of any kind. Especially privately owned entertainment. |
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Title: Re: How much blame should Baldwin shoulder. Post by MnSpring on 11/14/21 at 18:48:11 0F2F2D25382F4A0 wrote:
And yet another, 'swing and a miss' Pointing out, a possible, Parody of a Parody, would be a funny, Parody. Is now; "...an expectation ... (to) ... provide the exact equal amount of on-air content ..." |
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