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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Rear Shocks /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1633394130 Message started by DragBikeMike on 10/04/21 at 17:35:30 |
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Title: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/04/21 at 17:35:30 Since completing my engine project, I have been riding my Burgman scooter a lot. Oh what a difference. The ride is smooth & compliant. It's like stepping out of a Red Flyer wagon and climbing into a 67 El Dorado. I need to do something about my Savage suspension. Not looking to make a corner carver out of the thing, just want to soften up the ride and give my poor spine a rest. Any of you try the Progressive 412 shocks, or possibly the 430s or 444s. Any comments on spring selection. I weigh about 185 and never ride two-up. I'm planning to install 12-inch shocks. I'm not interested in doing some shock absorber project that involves all sorts of re-valving, mailing back & forth, etc. Just wanna plug & play. It defies logic that the scooter would be plush and the cruiser like riding a rigid. :-? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by verslagen1 on 10/04/21 at 18:10:17 intruder shocks is what you want, tall and soft. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Hiko on 10/04/21 at 21:23:22 I fitted 11 1/2 inch White shocks SA0029014 They were inexpensive and made a huge difference to my bike along with the 140/90 -15 Shinko reqr tyre The bigger rear tyre corrected the speedo too as a bonus. It geared it up by 4.2% |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/05/21 at 06:48:55 Dave, Read my suspension thread. The shock discussion starts at post #76. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1421689358/75 Post #3 in this thread talks about shock options. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1498156004 You will not find a compliant ride with any OEM shock. They are garbage. At the very least seek out a gas (N2) shock. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Yoshi on 10/05/21 at 10:02:38 I bought the 13” ryca shocks when they were available and me weighing 200 lbs the ride is great! Those are not available anymore so intruder shocks is your best bet now. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Tocsik on 10/05/21 at 11:24:14 How are y'all keeping the belt loose enough with taller shocks? Especially those also running the bigger Kawa front pulley? And our belts tighten we sit on the bike or load the suspension, right? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/05/21 at 11:44:38 6E55594953513A0 wrote:
I have a chain conversion. The OEM shocks are 10 inch. I believe that 10-1/2 and even 11 inch can be supported with the limited adjustment. @Dave can chime in on the specifics of using a belt and larger pulley - and longer shocks. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Dave on 10/05/21 at 13:59:25 407B77677D7F140 wrote:
The belt gets looser with taller shocks....as the swing arm is pulled out of being horizontal. So...you need to allow the belt to be looser when you adjust it with the the bike leaning on the side stand.....it will tighten when you sit on the bike or hit bumps. I run my belt pretty darn loose with the 13.5" long shocks on the Cafe and I have a modified engine - no belt problems yet. I suggest that if you put on taller shocks.....you might just leave the belt adjustment where it was with the shorter shocks. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by ohiomoto on 10/06/21 at 16:43:37 I've been eyeing up Hagon shocks. Not too expensive, they have something listed for our bike, and I think they are pretty close to the stock length. You can usually source them through a British bike supply house. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:40:29 Thanks to all for the comments & suggestions. Sorry I didn’t respond sooner but I had a lot to digest. Versy, which Intruder shocks, the VS800 or the VS1400. I suspect the 800. New VS800 shocks run about $700 bucks; eBay has some for very reasonable prices but I’m not too keen on used shock absorbers. I guess ya gotta keep your options open. How long are the Intruder shocks? Hiko, I googled the White shocks (SA0029014). Looks like I would have to procure those through an outlet in NZ or Aus. The NZ exchange rate makes those a real bargain provided the shipping to Hawaii isn’t too awful expensive. I can’t find any info on the spring rate, length, etc. Do you happen to know what the spring rate is? Gary, exceedingly good posts on the suspension. My compliments. I have some questions for you. You set the free sag on the forks at 10mm, which is 8% of the 127mm travel. Is it OK to also set the free sag on the rear shocks to 8% of the travel? For instance, the stock rear wheel travel is exactly 2.69”. That would work out to free sag = .215” (5.5mm), very close to your estimate. Once I replace the rear shocks the wheel travel should increase so I want to know if 8% is a good target. I’m baffled on the free sag guidance, if less than recommended you need heavier spring, if more than recommended you need a lighter spring. That seems counterintuitive. I saw similar guidance on an Aussie website. I’m missing something. Can you elaborate? Please tell me if I have the procedure correct. Step 1, determine baseline. Step 2, establish and set correct race sag for given travel. Step 3, check free sag to verify proper spring rate. Tocsik & Dave, I agree that the belt tension might be a problem and I think Dave’s suggestion to stick with the adjustment established with stock shocks is a good suggestion. I simulated geometry with stock shocks (10.6” eye-to-eye), 11” shocks, 11.5” shocks, and 12” shocks. With 12” suspenders that belt is mighty loose. I don’t know how folks run it with 13” shocks. Ohiomoto, I tried to get more info on the Hagen shocks. Dime City Cycle seems to sell them, but their website doesn’t provide any specifics. Looks to me like I could probably call them and see what they can provided. Currently, it doesn’t look like they have any 11” or 11.5”, and they have no info on spring rates. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:41:26 I’ve been working on this for a few days so I thought I would fill you all in on what I have found so far. To start with, the stock shock absorbers are 10.6” eye-to-eye. They have exactly 1.76” of travel. Rear wheel travel is exactly 2.69”. The wheel to shock ratio is 1.5:1, meaning for every 1” of shock travel the wheel travels 1.5”. So, the rear wheel has a significant mechanical advantage over the shock. Certainly a consideration when selecting the springs. Any shock longer than 11” will not be a simple bolt-on. At 11.25” the lower belt guard runs into the front drive pulley. Not hard to trim the guard but you need to be aware of the problem. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:41:57 Even with 11” shocks that lower guard gets might close to the pulley. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:42:30 The right passenger peg is a consideration. It gets close to the muffler with 12” shocks. Don’t know what would happen with 13” shocks, I didn’t check. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:43:06 We all have our own taste, but I personally think the thing starts getting ugly past 11.5” shocks. It starts looking like a dirt bike. Here’s what the fender clearance looks like with 12” suspenders. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:43:50 You can save a bunch of beer money with a tool like this. It’s just a 3/16” rod, an old magnet from a computer hard drive, and a spring. Now you don’t need a bunch of beer guzzling buddies to check the sag. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:44:25 File a point on the end of the rod. Make a punch mark in a flat on the axle nut. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:44:54 The point on the rod goes into the punch mark. Like this. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:45:26 The old hard drive magnet needs a 13/64” hole for the rod. Chamfer the edges of the hole so the rod won’t bind. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:46:14 The magnet goes on the fender rail. Adjust it so its directly above the rear axle nut. These magnets are mighty strong, be careful with the paint & chrome. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:48:38 Attach the spring to the rod and the magnet. The spring keeps the rod in intimate contact with the axle nut as you stroke the rear suspension. You attach a zip tie around the rod and adjust it so that it just touches the underside of the magnet when the rear suspension is fully extended for baseline check (i.e. hanging). |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:49:11 Then you can lower the bike and check free sag and race sag. For instance, set the bike back down and then raise it back up until the wheel is hanging. You can get a sag measurement. Probably not the best since you can’t bounce it around and let it settle, but I suspect it will be adequate. Maybe just do the measurement three or four times and average the readings. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:49:41 The bike has to be held upright for the sag measurements. I use this simple wooden stand. The straps going above the turn signals are loose so as to not compress the forks at all. They are just there as a safety precaution, so I don’t dump the thing on it’s side. The straps going to the area around the fender mounts are actually holding the bike upright. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:50:19 Use a scissors jack to raise and lower the rear end. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:51:28 I must admit I have never paid much attention to suspension. This is a steep learning curve for me. I have no way to quantify how good or bad the shocks & forks are working. What I do know is that my Burgman rides much smoother than the Savage, and the Savage rear end is an absolute pile-driver. Our roads are lousy and sometimes I hit what appear to be relatively small irregularities and it feels like my spine is being driven through my heart. It’s real bad. I’m such a suspension stone that I don’t know if the rear end is bottoming out or just too stiff. I’ve been riding it for over three years, why haven’t I addressed the issue? I took a quick look and figured out I had the preload on the softest setting. OK, that’s a start. I figured let’s see if it’s bottoming out. I slathered up the shock shaft with a sloppy coat of black grease. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:52:04 I went for a nice ride. Yep, it’s terrible. That grease didn’t help one bit. Just kidding. It rode rough and the pile-driver effect was in full swing. It doesn’t take much of a bump to crush my vertebrae. Got home and took a quick look. Pretty much looked like it was using up all of the shock travel and I didn’t even drive directly into any potholes. The last 1/8” or so had grease but seemed like that was just the pile that got pushed up onto the rubber bumper. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:53:00 Jacked up the preload to max and gave the shaft another coat of grease. Then took it out for another lap around the secret suspension test track. It was different, but I wouldn’t necessarily say better. First off, it seemed to steer a little lighter. It was also real bouncy now. Seemed like all the little stuff was getting through (like every cigarette butt). The larger irregularities might have been a little better. Hard to tell for sure but I think the pile-driver effect has been diminished slightly. So now it’s more like riding a jack-hammer, constantly rattling and dribbling along, with an occasional pile driver thrown in at say 80% of the prior intensity. A quick check of the grease mark showed it was no longer using up all of the available travel. A good thing??? Looks like the 3rd or 4th preload setting would be best for these stock boingers. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/08/21 at 17:54:43 So, that’s where I’m at. I am leaning toward 11.5” shocks. Probably Progressive 412s with 90/130 springs. Gary suggests the 90/130 springs and Progressive also got back to me with the same recommendation. Do I have the setup drill correct? Baseline, set preload using race sag, check free sag to verify spring rate. Is the method I am using to assess rear shock action OK? Is doing the check with grease worth anything? I am leaning toward the longest shocks I can install without gross changes to belt tension, steering, kickstand, or appearance. I’m assuming the 11.5” shocks will provide more travel. All other considerations aside, will the additional travel mitigate the pile-drive effect? Anyone have any comments on length? Hiko, did you experience any interference issues with your 11.5” shocks? How about the kickstand? Does it work OK with the 11.5” shocks? I appreciate the help. Best regards, Mike |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/21 at 18:54:32 I think the issue with 11.5" is the belt rubs on the bolt on the case under the sprocket cover. I don't think there's an issue with the kickstand. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by ohiomoto on 10/09/21 at 06:41:17 DMB The Hagon site looks like it's under construction, but they have a spreadsheet for shock fitment and I thought fork springs too. I think they were 11" shocks. I'm sure Dime City or any British Bike shop can get the info. I think the shocks were a little over $200 and you could black or chrome springs. EDIT: Check the page below. There is a link to an spreadsheet there. Line 1142 shows the LS650 and lists part numbers 28001 and 28001SA for shocks. I think they are 280mm or just over 11". I don't see any fork springs on the list but I'm pretty sure they have them. http://www.britcycle.com/Products/Hagon/Hagon_Special_Order.htm |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/09/21 at 09:02:09 27212E52505753630 wrote:
Dave, You were heading in the wrong direction...but then you saved yourself. You don't set static sag - you set race sag. Static sag is the result of the race sag and it tells us about the spring rate. If after setting the race sag you have too much static sag, that is a sign that the spring rate is too high. Why is this? Simple, you didn't need much (or any) preload to achieve your race sag figure. Conversely, if you have too little static sag, it means that you had to crank in a whole lot of preload to get the right height, and now the shock is jacked up - and there isn't enough spring travel left. Dave, if you are going to take the time and spend the money here - do it right and do it once. It will be worth the effort. A good shock is one that is rebuildable. This way if a seal fails, you don't throw away the assembly, you replace the part. Also, if the shock is rebuildable, that means you can rebuild it to a specification that you choose. For example, if you don't like the rebound compression, you can change the shim stack (flexible washers). Being rebuildable means that you can choose the oil viscosity, the amount of oil, and the amount and pressure of N2. These are all thing that effect the operation of the shock - and your comfort. A good shock will have a preload collar, not 5 clicks. What happens if you are between clicks? My bike is comfortable. Period - no disclaimers on that. Well one...I have more travel which gives me more options to achieve comfort. But there are plenty of comfortable Harleys out there and they too have limited travel. It's not about how much travel you have, but what happens between the end points. The spring has to adequately support the bike and rider in the right location/zone, and the damping has to control the speed of the motion. If you are chasing spring rate for comfort, you are doing it wrong. If the sag figures are correct - then its not the spring - its the damping. That's why in a quality shock you have control of the damping. If you put Intruder shocks on your bike, you are replacing crap with different crap. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Hiko on 10/09/21 at 14:47:57 Drag Bike Mike I fitted the 290mm Whites shocks back in January They were advertised as suitable for retro bikes like Triumph Bsa etc and they were cheap, only about $80 in your money and were all chrome so I thought what the heck I will try them cant be worse than the Suzuki ones. They have springs of 56mm OD and made from 7mm wire and the coils are 12mm centers in the relaxed state I run with 2 notches of preload the first notch was a little too soft and bottomed out too easily for me I weigh 200 lbs. The Suzuki ones on the first notch were very hard. I run Shinko 230 140/90-15 on the rear and have no problems with rubbing anywhere I did have to take a bit off the rear belt guard to stop it rubbing on the front pulley and slacken the belt slightly. Happy with the results for the money spent no doubt there are better solutions around but not for the money I think No modifications made to the side stand The bike may lean a little more but I havent noticed much difference |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Ruttly on 10/09/21 at 17:37:18 I think the shocks were moved closer to the axle it might ride better but that just increases bad geometry of the shock the upper mounts would need to be moved rearward too , but maybe not angled forward as much as stock A rear sub frame would need to be added for upper shock mounts It may be why swing arms crack I wonder how the weight distribution changes from a stocker to a Ryca with shortened fork and longer shocks. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/09/21 at 23:53:02 Ohiomoto, thanks for the link to Hagon and the part numbers. Looks like they have an extensive line of shocks. Gary, thanks for clarifying the static sag (free sag) vs spring rate issue. I have a better understanding now. Is it safe to assume that 8% of the total travel is a good target for static sag (free sag)? Hiko, your bike is so clean. The White shocks look nice on there. Same length I am considering. That chrome rail helps to hide the gap between the fender and tire. Good to know that you don't have any issues with the kickstand. Do you feel that your ride is noticeably smoother with the White shocks or do you feel they are simply a good equivalent to the stock shocks? Did they mitigate or eliminate the pile-driver effect? Hey Rutly, I was looking at some pics of your tracker. I love that thing. Are those Progressive 444s on the back? How long are they and what springs are you running? Do they provide a smooth, comfy ride? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/10/21 at 06:13:39 72747B07050206360 wrote:
Yes, 8% is the correct figure. Close enough is close enough. There is so much stiction in the shocks and system drag from other moving components that it can be difficult to get consistent results. That’s why it is always suggested to take the average from multiple measurements; from both compressing and unloading the suspension. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Hiko on 10/10/21 at 13:31:50 [quote a Hiko, your bike is so clean. The White shocks look nice on there. Same length I am considering. That chrome rail helps to hide the gap between the fender and tire. Good to know that you don't have any issues with the kickstand. Do you feel that your ride is noticeably smoother with the White shocks or do you feel they are simply a good equivalent to the stock shocks? Did they mitigate or eliminate the pile-driver effect? Drag bike mike A short distance from me on the highway is a bump that has been there for years and I use it as a test bed I started with a pad on the seat Then I lifted the front of the seat about 30mm then came the bigger softer rear tyre 140/90-15 Shinko 230 tourmaster Then came the Whites 290mm shocks I dont use the pad anymore and the ride is much better than stock Each step was an improvement There has been no downsides |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/12/21 at 15:23:27 Again, thanks Gary and Hiko for your latest advice and comments. Since the grease test confirmed that the rear shocks were bottoming on the softest preload setting, and not bottoming but jack-hammer rough on the stiffest preload setting, it was evident that I needed to be somewhere in between. I decided to try and set the rear end up using Gary’s guidance (30% race sag, 8% static sag). That would be 20.5mm race sag and 5.5mm static sag. The closest I could get to the desired values was the 3rd preload setting, which resulted in 19mm race sag and 4mm static sag. Gary said the springs are too soft and the static sag measurement supports that. Using Gary’s setup guidance made a noticeable improvement. Now it’s tolerable. I did the grease check and after 50 miles of Oahu’s signature potholes, it is using about 85% of the total rear shock travel. It never bottomed out, and the constant jack-hammer effect I experienced with the stiffest setting is reduced to a sporadic jack-hammer effect (only occurs on really rough pavement). Not being a suspension expert, or even a suspension rank-novice, all I can say is its not nearly as bad as it was. I could have simply just started trying each setting to see how it felt, but I wanted to see what I could learn. I’m likin Gary’s setup advice. When I change out the shocks, I have a better idea of how to set it up. I decided to go with 11.5” Progressive 412 shocks with 90/130 springs. They’re cheap, readily available, and basically plug-n-play. Just about right for my rudimentary skill level. Now I’m gonna try Gary’s setup procedure on the front forks. I’ve been riding it around with a zip tie on the fork tube so I can get a feel for how much the forks travel. They’ve been using up about 4.83”. That’s 97% of the available travel (5.00”). I’m gonna try and set the preload so that I can achieve the correct race sag (1.5”) and see what I get for static sag. As it sits right now (totally stock) it has 2.19” race sag and 1.54” static sag. Seems like I will have to add a lot of preload. So, now I have a question regarding the oil level. The factory manual calls for 75mm. Is there any merit to fiddling around with the oil level on the box-stock forks? I was planning to leave it alone for now. But once I add more preload, and improve race sag and static sag as best I can with the stock springs, would there be any merit to lowering the oil level? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/12/21 at 15:35:16 You’re starting to get religion. The OEM oil height is ridiculous. It’s that high to compensate for the lack of damping. You could use a higher viscosity oil. That will help with the low speed damping, but it will cause the forks to hydrolock on fast speeds earlier in the stroke. So to gain slow speed comfort, you make the ride worse. There is no winning with damping rods - they have a very narrow window of compliance. The OEM springs are progressively wound (multi-rate) and don’t respond well to typical preloading. When you preload a multi rate spring to essentially diminish the lower rate, leaving only the higher rate…which leads to a harsh fork. You know where this is heading. [ch128512] |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:07:52 While I was waiting for the Progressive 412 shocks and a set of Progressive fork springs (11-1153), I decided to try and set up the stock forks. A set of .69” (16mm) spacers and washers brought the race sag down to 1.49” (38mm) and the static sag to .61” (15mm). That’s as good as I can get it. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:08:56 After an aggressive lap around the secret suspension test track, the zip tie on my front fork showed I was now using about 3.88” of the total available fork travel. That’s 77%. I think it was better but it’s seat-o-da-pants. I’m still groping around in the dark. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:09:50 It’s still harsh but it didn’t bottom out the forks. The worst scenario seemed to be abrupt steps in the pavement. The front end would kick up and that seemed to set up the rear wheel for a killer crash into the step. Then the rear wheel would hit the step and ouch! It was harsh. I thought that the small holes in the fender washers that I used might inhibit the air pressure in the upper region of the fork from equalizing across the washer. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:10:30 So, I enlarged the holes to ¾”. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:11:10 The larger holes in the washers didn’t change the fork action. It was about the same, 77% of available travel, seemed better than stock, still harsh. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to play with the oil level a bit. I made a simple dipstick. The lower washer keeps the dipstick in the center of the fork tube so you can get a decent reading even if the fork isn’t straight up & down. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:11:55 You remove the springs and compress the forks all the way. Then use the dipstick to see what the oil level is. Raise the level to stiffen things up, lower the level to soften up the ride. The factory manual calls for 75mm. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:12:31 A MightyVac brake bleeder works good for removing small amounts of oil. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:13:28 There’s a step in the top triple tree, so if you are checking oil level with the forks on the motorcycle, you have to subtract 10mm from your readings. For instance, if you measure the level at 120mm, its actually 110mm due to the step. It’s also important to keep the dipstick centered in the fork tube. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:14:43 I found the level exactly at the factory spec, 75mm. I wanted to see what would happen if I lowered the level, so I removed oil until the level was 100mm. Took it for a torture test. To me, it seemed better. The front end didn’t seem to kick up as much on the abrupt stuff. The zip tie on the front fork now indicated that the forks were using about 1/8” more travel. The forks were stroking 4” or 79% of available travel. It seemed better??? Howzabout lowering the oil level some more. I removed another 20mm of oil, so now the level was at 120mm. The fork action seemed really smooth. The zip tie showed it was now using 4.22” of available travel (83%). It seemed better, but still harsh. I decided to try a lighter weight oil. Belray 10W seemed prudent. First, I ran 30 ml of the stock oil through my burette. It took about 25 seconds. Then the Belray 10W. It took about 19 seconds. OK. The Belray is thinner. I made an oil removal tool from a piece of brake tubing. Thirty inches of 3/16” tubing was just right. Use a tubing cutter to cut off one of the flares. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:15:29 Then attach a piece of nylon hose to the brake tubing. Insert the tubing into the fork and find the center of the dampening rod. The brake tubing must drop down through the center of the dampening rod. Then use the MightyVac to suck out the oil. Obviously not a perfect drain job but it will do. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:16:30 Drained and filled both forks to 120mm with the Belray 10W fork oil. To me, it felt better but what do I know. It seemed smoother, more compliant, but still harsh. Didn’t seem to kick up as much in the front. The zip tie showed it was now using 4.53” of travel (89%). Is this a good thing, using almost 90% of the travel???? The new rear shocks and front springs arrived. I thought I had the front end working pretty good. Time to try out some new boingers on the rear. First order of business was to enlarge the ½” bushings to 14mm. I drilled them out with a 17/32” drill and then used an expandable reamer to enlarge each bushing to 14mm. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:17:00 The bushings fit just right. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:17:29 I already knew I could expect interference problems from the lower belt guard. I lobbed off ¼” from the front edge of the guard. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:18:03 And later discovered that the mounting area of the guard hits the pulley cover. So, I had to relieve a small section (shown here circled in red). Hiko, did you have any trouble in this area? You might wanna check it. Only presents a problem when the rear wheel is off the ground. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:18:37 I did not touch the belt adjustment. It’s loose when the rear wheel is off the ground but it’s still gonna have to swing through the tight part of the arc. Doesn’t make sense to try and adjust it. Versy, thanks for the heads up on the bolt on the shifter housing. I trimmed it back just to be sure that there’s no contact with the belt. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:19:22 With the 11.5” shocks installed, the fender clearance didn’t look too bad. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:20:02 It didn’t lean over too far when on the kickstand. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:20:46 The shocks looked nice. They suited the cruiser style. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:22:21 Time to set the sag. I measured the rear wheel travel at 3.56” (90mm). So, I gained about .87” travel (22mm). Looks like the target race sag will be 27mm and target free sag will be 7mm. The closest I could get to those target sags was with the preload set to the stiffest setting (#5). Uh oh! Looks like those 90/130 springs might be a little soft. Did I screw this up? I weighed myself again. Yep, 185 lbs. Throw on the riding gear and I come in at 194 lbs. Oh well, why not try it. One nice feature on these 412s is there’s a slot in the spring retainer. Makes it easy to check how much the shock travels. Just shove a chopstick down the opening and push the bumper stop all the way down to the shock body. Ride it around and you can see how much the shock traveled. The bumper fits real tight on the shaft so it will stay at the highest point it reaches. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:23:14 Here you can see where the bumper starts out. After you ride it over an obstacle it will remain at the highest point it got pushed up the shaft. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:25:01 I did all sorts of tests. The #5 preload setting was best, and the best wasn’t good. It bottoms out, and that hurts. I ordered a set of 115/155 springs. These 90/130s are too soft. I have come to a conclusion. This contraption is called a shock absorber. It’s supposed to “absorb shock”. Once it goes on the bumper, it no longer absorbs shock, it transfers shock. Then the rider (you) becomes the shock absorber. Ouch! I think the same holds true for the forks. After some pondering, I’m thinkin that the forks go on their bumper (which is hydraulic) at around 85% of total travel, give or take a little. Once the fork tube starts to overlap the compression dampening holes in the dampening rod, oil flow starts slowing down BIG TIME. And then the tube starts to engage the “oil lock” (Pc 11). Man, that’s gotta stop it dead. When you stroke the forks by hand you can feel all that start to happen about the last one-half to three-quarter inch of the stroke. It’s essentially a hard stop or “bumper”. I’m thinkin you don’t want those forks or shocks hitting the bumpers on a routine basis. It’s a revelation, an epiphany. Why didn’t I think of this sooner??? DragBikeMike’s New Cardinal Rule of Suspension: You want it on the springs at all times; you never want it on the bumpers. Do I have that right??? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:25:35 Gotta wait for the 115/155 shock springs. Back to the forks. I threw in the Progressive 11-1153 springs. Left the 10W as-is but adjusted the level down to 180mm. Progressive’s instruction sheet says never run the springs with an oil level above 150mm. The wire is way thicker and there are lots more coils. All that spring material takes up space. The oil level will rise a lot more when you drop the springs in. I wanted to be safe, so I took a chance and set it at 180 mm. Just look at the difference between these springs. Guess which spring is the stocker. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:26:18 After fiddling around a bit with sag, I ended up with 77mm spacers. I tried 95mm spacers but there wasn’t enough sag. Electrical conduit works great for these spacers. The spring kit comes with a chunk of plastic pipe, but I opted for the metal stuff. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:27:08 Race sag ended up at 1.47” (37mm). Target is 1.52” (39mm). Static sag was too much, 1.10” (28mm). Target static sag is .40” (10mm). I could improve the static sag a bit by adding a .06” thick washer on top of each preload spacer. As it is, there is only about 5mm of preload on the springs. But that would only make the race sag worse. I think the race sag is the important value. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 10/20/21 at 23:28:46 Time for a test ride. I took it out for a double loop. Hit every pothole I could find, then looped around and hit it again at the highest speed I could safely manage in the prevailing traffic. Did some major panic stops. The ride out front was very good. Absolutely no hard impacts transmitted through the bars. Good control. No pogo stick action. Fork action was smooth and predictable. No wobbling around in corners. Is this what good suspension is supposed to feel like? I don’t know, but it’s a helluva lot better than what I started out with. Back home, the zip tie showed that the forks were now using 3.50” of travel (69%). Well shy of the hydraulic-stop zone (85%). I think this is the way to go. Excellent recommendation on those Progressive 11-1153 springs Gary. Am I on the right track here? The front feels great. I’m thinkin the back will enjoy the heavier springs just as much as the front did. Any merit to revisiting fork oil weight & level if the forks are behaving? I have noticed that changes on the front end affect the behavior of the back end, and vice versa. Once I dial in the rear shocks, if the forks still work as good as they do now, is there any reason why I shouldn’t leave the 10W oil as-is at 180mm? One other tidbit. My biggest complaint about the Savage has been slow-speed handling. I have always hated it’s slow-speed manners. Getting caught in heavy traffic sucks. As you crawl along you just can’t keep it going straight. Constantly overcorrecting, flopping right & left. Well, those one-inch longer shocks completely eliminated that little irritant. Now, as I crawl along, it’s straight as an arrow. That improvement alone makes this project worthwhile. More to come. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Hiko on 10/20/21 at 23:36:48 DBM Your Bike looks great to me it looks a little more "standard " and I like that look anyway I did grind some off the front of the lower guard not sure now where and how much I did not touch the shifter bolt though perhaps I should check that My bike is soooo much better now with all the little mods that have been done thanks to this site. Softer riding, smoother running, and no belt noise AT ALL. That rear pulley bearing mod of yours is a real winner |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/04/21 at 14:30:00 Hiko I’m glad your belt is silent. I’ve got well over 10000 miles on the duplex bearing and it’s holding up great. I received the 115/155 springs, Progressive part number 03-1375C. I also purchased their tool for installing the springs, part number 35-5508. It works great. The heavier springs were not the solution I was hoping for. With the 115/155 springs, the closest I could come to the target sag was at the #2 preload setting. At that setting, race sag was 28mm but there was like zero static sag??? BTW, Progressive doesn’t specify any sort of static sag value. They just recommend you set race sag at one-third of travel (in this case 30mm). So, 28mm is right in the zone between Gary’s recommendation of .30 and Progressive’s recommendation of .33. With the heavier springs the rear end was now very harsh over all the minor irregularities, and it still bottomed out. Jeeeeeeeez. I tried the softest setting (#1). Really couldn’t tell much difference. To make a long story short, I feel that the most comfortable ride was achieved with the 90/130 springs set at the #3 preload position. It seemed to be the best compromise. The sag wasn’t right, but the ride felt best at this preload. It was obvious that I was not going to eliminate the bottoming. Unlike the front forks, the rear shocks seem to use up all of their travel with any spring of reasonable stiffness. I suppose I could have tried an even heavier set of springs, but the 115/155 springs were already way too harsh under normal riding conditions. With the Progressive front fork springs, Progressive 412 shocks, and 90/130 shock springs it’s half decent (meaning the front end is good and the rear end is decent). If I ride the thing as intended (i.e. not intentionally trying to hit every pothole), its pretty good. Steering is much better, and the ride is fairly comfy. Is it reasonable to expect that one can achieve a "plush" ride with a chassis that positions the rider directly on top of the rear shock absorbers? Like I’m sitting right on top of the shocks. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/04/21 at 14:30:51 Am I wrong in my assumption that you don’t want the rear shock absorbers going hard onto the bumpers? The front forks don’t do that. But the rear shocks go onto the bumpers with both spring sets (standard 90/130 and heavy-duty 115/155). Is that an indication that the harsh ride is inherent to the chassis design, or is it the result of lousy compression dampening, or both chassis and dampening? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/04/21 at 19:12:05 The S40 has a very heavy rear section. While I didn’t weigh it, I would believe that I removed close to 50 pounds from the rear section when I modified my bike. Having the rider sitting right above the shocks probably isn’t helpful. One of the limitations of the shocks is the 2 inches of travel. You are asking for a lot to happen in a very short amount of travel. The problem you are running into here Dave is that you are trying to solve two parameters at the same time, with only your ass as a gauge. The spring only has one job, support the bike and rider. Get the sag numbers as close as you can to where you like them, and then tackle the other parameter - damping. Damping determines ride comfort and handling. If the ride is too harsh (and the sag is correct) then the problem is too much compression damping. If the ride feels very “busy”, then it’s the rebound. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Dave on 11/05/21 at 01:50:32 5953575D565F5B520C0A0E3E0 wrote:
Mike.....not Dave. (Although I am watching and learning). ;) |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/05/21 at 04:05:42 That was an odd slip |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/05/21 at 18:15:38 Thanks Gary. I appreciate your comments. This is where I get into a pickle. “If the ride is too harsh (and the sag is correct) then the problem is too much compression damping. If the ride feels very “busy”, then it’s the rebound.” I’ve got a rear suspension that bottoms out over relatively minor obstructions, even when the sag is correct. At least to me the obstructions are relatively minor. Our roads are terrible. For the most part, I can avoid the potholes. It’s those sneak attacks that concern me. The ride isn’t “busy” as far as I can tell, and it’s not harsh until the rear wheel drops into a crater. If I had the ability to adjust the compression dampening, and I tweaked it up, I guess it might eliminate the shock going onto the bumper. What I find amazing is that these shocks (412-4006C with 90/130 springs) are intended for a variety of Harleys. They are supposed to be a direct replacement for a FXR or an FXRT. The FXR is like 620 lbs, and the FXRT is like 680 lbs. On those Harleys, I imagine that the rear end must sit on the bumpers with just the weight of the rider. Even the heavier springs (115/155) won’t keep mine off the bumpers when I hit moderate irregularities in the road. Is it normal for a suspension system like this to have the shocks bottom out under normal road conditions? Let’s put this another way. Do your rear shocks ever bottom out? Honestly, I don’t really know if that’s normal. I’ve never paid any attention to it. The LS cruiser configuration pretty much puts all the rider’s weight on their butt. My legs really aren’t supporting much. The “sit up & beg” rider position has my back taking every hit. There’s no question in my mind about the current performance of my suspension. It is better than before. So is the handling. I suspect this will be as good as it gets with the 412s. I’m just tryin to see what I can learn, maybe make it a bit better. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/05/21 at 18:17:06 What is your opinion on the front end? Does it seem reasonable that I ended up with the oil level at 180mm? Progressive cautions against going less than 150mm and I can see why given the thickness of the wire and extreme number of coils. Do you see the 10W oil as a problem? Does the preload at 5mm seem OK? Under normal riding conditions it’s only using about 69% of available travel. I haven’t tried any serious panic stops yet. Should I do that, and if so, should I try to do it over rough sections of road? Am I correct in assuming that the front end should start going into hydraulic deceleration and lock at about 85% travel where it starts overlapping the “oil Lock” (Pc 11)? If so, is that the amount of travel I should shoot for under panic braking/extreme conditions. For instance, if I use like 90 to 100% travel under extreme conditions, should I raise the oil level a bit? Try and get the max travel used down to 80 to 85%? I appreciate the help. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/08/21 at 15:41:48 I decided to do some panic stop tests. Made sure I did the stops over long sections of poorly repaired potholes. It was brutal. The forks seemed to take it in stride. No loud clunks, ran straight, return was smooth and controlled. I kept that story about flying off the Katana in the back of my mind. I didn't have any trouble staying on the bike. It used 4.87" of travel, about 96%. So Gary, what is the downside of leaving it as-is? The front seems to be working good but is using a lot of travel. If I throw in more oil is it going to sacrifice ride quality for the occasional panic stop? Since I don't have any problems hauling it to a stop is there any merit to bumping up the oil level? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by badwolf on 11/08/21 at 17:13:29 I guess I missed it, but what front brake and rotor are you using? I found the stock brake was so weak it would turn most stops into a panic! I'm running a dual piston caliper from a sv650 and a 295mm rotor on a 100/90 16 up front and have renewed confidnce when it comes to stopping. I always thought improving a bikes stopping should go hand-in-hand with increased power. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/09/21 at 05:07:34 Mike, Yes, go ahead and raise the fork oil height by 10mm. That will effect both compression and rebound. You have to determine the trade off between ride comfort and suspension travel and triangulate between. There are no rules here...it's all feel. So how much oil do you add for 10mm? The inside diameter of the fork is 33mm and you want a 10mm change; that is 8.55ml (0.289oz) for every 10mm [Volume = Pi x R^2 x Length]. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/09/21 at 10:48:35 Badwolf, at the risk of being run out of town on a rail, I don't find the stock front brake to be all that bad. I spent twenty-five years riding a Harley Softail. Now that's a motorcycle that sorely needs a front brake. It was heavily modified and would routinely run about 135 mph through the traps at our local drag strip. My buddies used to say that "Mike's ride didn't start until the end of the race". Needless to say, it was a real challenge to get that sled down to a reasonable speed by the last turn-out. The stock caliper and rotor work fine for me. I'm retired and confine my riding to those times when traffic is at a minimum. I'm not a canyon carver and I don't feel the need to show off. All my WOT stuff is reserved for wide open roads in a straight line. I am always open for improvement. Tell me more about your brake setup. Given the tire size, I assume you have changed your front wheel. I have noted that new brake rotors for the Savage are very expensive so I have been searching for replacements. Anyone know if there are any other rotors that will bolt on. As I recall, someone has a kit to upgrade to a R1 rotor and caliper. Any links to that? BTW, I recall reading some sort of astronomical odometer data on one of your posts. I'm very curious about that. Do you think you could do a post with a picture or two. Maybe give us a little background info on your ride. I assume it's your daily driver. Logging over 100K on one of these little LS650s is worthy of praise. I'd like to get a look at Badwolf's Badboy. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/09/21 at 10:56:47 Gary, OK I will throw in some more oil and see what it does....but....what am I trying to achieve? "Am I correct in assuming that the front end should start going into hydraulic deceleration and lock at about 85% travel where it starts overlapping the “oil Lock” (Pc 11)? If so, is that the amount of travel I should shoot for under panic braking/extreme conditions. For instance, if I use like 90 to 100% travel under extreme conditions, should I raise the oil level a bit? Try and get the max travel used down to 80 to 85%?" What is the downside to leaving it as-is at 96%? What is the upside to adding more oil? |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/09/21 at 11:41:48 85-90% under extreme braking leaves a little margin in an emergency should you hit a pothole as you are braking for your life. If the forks bottom out you could either get a significant rebound (thus loosing control) or your hands could come off the forks (again loosing control). The goal; a comfortable ride without bottoming the forks. BTW, there is a "secret" 1/2" of additional travel via the top-out spring. If you are happy with the ride of your bike, I'd leave it. But if you want to tinker (I know you do) then go from your oil height of 120mm to 115mm. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by badwolf on 11/09/21 at 13:26:01 DBM, My bike is converted into sort-of a solo bagger. Homemade seat sprung off the top shock mounts, a box/backrest where the rear seat was, big windshield, saddlebags made from .50 cal ammo cans(and a lot of fiberglass), tubeless wheels off a 02' Marauder, GPS speedometer, 4.5 gallon tank from a Yamaha V-Star, and front & rear Kaw drive pulleys, Daymaker LED headlight, and a bunch of LEDs made into a light bar on the back.(it's a ulgy thing for a tailight, but here in Fla. people have a hard time seeing a semi, so the more lights on the back the better!) I travel on it a lot, best trip was Salt Lake City in 18' (was at opening day of Speedweek on the salt flats,,,VERRRRRRY COOL, for 105 degrees) Up to Western NY where I grew-up and back, and a trip or two every summer to see Moe at the KSL in western N.C. (DON'T LAUGH) I also go to a LOT of Roller Derby bouts and tournaments all over the southeast and mid-west. That has been put on HOLD for the last 2 years cause of Covid. This is a link to a post from Oct about the front brake and tubeless wheel conversion. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1633901114/0#0 Both have been covered before by others in more detail. I belive Dave was the first to go with the dual piston caliper from a sv650. Front wheel & brake- https://www.dropbox.com/s/82r6vtncl0b7ba5/IMG_20211109_160337_1.jpg?dl=0 Bike- https://www.dropbox.com/s/00zwwew5a5rqq9v/IMG_20211109_160312_9.jpg?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by Dave on 11/10/21 at 02:18:55 Mike: The SV650 brake caliper works just fine with the stock caliper and stock master cylinder.. The first one I modified I sent to MMRanch (I let him be the Guinea Pig). He has had it on his bike for several years and several thousand miles and says it work great....he claims he can do a "stoppie" with two fingers! I modified mine by cutting the bracket and welding on more material......Badwolf made an adapter. Currently I am working on one and will use Badwolf's method as it requires less cutting/welding/grinding. Here is the thread about the SV650 caliper. Unfortunately my photos are gone.....I will repost them again in the next couple of days. The other option is to buy the Big Brake kit offered by Shawn. I have it on my Cafe bike and it works well and looks good. If you do a lot of heavy braking it is the way to go......lots more surface area to help dissipate heat. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1475013866 |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/10/21 at 20:40:43 OK Gary. Thanks for the advice. I will add some oil and see what happens. BTW, my current oil level is 180mm, not 120mm. I will try 170mm and possibly 160mm. Progressive cautions against going higher than 150mm. I think I will shoot for 85 to 90% over my current braking test surface which is a pretty darned rough section of poorly repaired pavement. Dave, thanks for the info on the SV caliper and the link to the Big Brake kit. It looks like a nice setup. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/10/21 at 20:51:04 Badwolf, your ride looks like the ultimate long-haul Savage. I like the front wheel setup. What wheel are you running out back? It looks like a drum brake, do I have that correct? The tubless tires are a big plus. When you get out on the open road do you actually lean back into that Barca Lounger setup. That seems like it would really reduce fatigue due to the wind blast. Combined with the windshield it must be the cat's meow on the interstate. How many miles do you have on it? What sort of repairs have you had to make? Cam chain? Piston? Rings? Leaks? Original valves? Cam? Rockers? What is your go-to oil? How many miles can you squeeze out of a rear tire? Thanks for sharing the post on the wheel & brake and the pictures. Very cool. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by badwolf on 11/10/21 at 21:42:08 DBM, The back wheel is the mate to the front, a 15x3.5 tubeless.(front is 16x3.0) Drum on the back. I lean back all the time, don't know how I rode so many miles without it. I run Shell Rotella T4 dino 15-40, changed the cam chain at 80k(but the follower was the real wear part there, have since removed the tenisoner pawl spring, turned the plunger upside-down and shimed it to 1.5mm movement and no more plunger extension for the last 20k) Ran Shinko 230's either 150 or latley 140/90-15's and got about 15 to 18k on them but got a good deal on a Mich. Commander 2 140/90 15, currently 6k and showing very little wear so far, but seems worse in the rain. Had the head plug leak and lower head bolt leak.(who hasn't?) Some clutch slippage so I put a extra steel plate in it to cure that. 132k on it now and plan to look inside the left side case again at 150. I have a new cc follower to put in then and I think the cc will go to 200k with the pawl out of the picture. |
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Title: Re: Rear Shocks Post by DragBikeMike on 11/12/21 at 08:55:01 Badwolf I'm impressed. Thanks for the info. I could never run up the miles like you. Your bike is hard core and so are you. A testament to durability. :) |
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