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Message started by Dave on 03/05/21 at 12:35:03

Title: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/05/21 at 12:35:03

I was installing cast wheels so that I can run tubeless tires - so if I get a tire puncture I can insert a plug rather than have to dismount the tire and try to patch a tube while on the road.

I was careful to buy wheels that stated "TUBELESS TIRE APPLICABLE" on the rim. My rear rim came from an 85 GS550, the front rim from an 84 GS450.

The front wheel came with a 90/90-19 tire with a tube in it, the rear came without a tire and had a rubber valve stem.

Now that I have the rims cleaned up and ready for tires - I see there is an issue. The rear tire has a valve stem and a normal .453 valve stem hole, and the rim has the raised lips on the inside edge of the rim where the tire bead seats. The front wheel has a small diameter valve stem hole for a tube - and the wheel does not have any raised rib where the tire bead seats.

While I could make the front wheel valve stem hole larger and install a rubber valve stem - there is still the issue of not having the raised ribs on the rim. I believe these raised ribs are what makes tubeless tires so hard to get off the rims.....and what helps keep the tire on the rim if the tire pressure gets low.

Tubes are not good as they can blow out nearly instantly if punctured - tubeless are not so fast to deflate and give more warning......and with or without a tube a flat front tire can come off the rim when deflated and put a quick end to your riding.

I looked on many front wheels on eBay - and I cannot see a single 19" wheel that is set up to actually be tubeless....even though they say they are tubeless tire compatible. You have to go to a 16" front rim if you want to have a true tubeless tire rim.

I guess if I have to run the front with a tube and the rear tubeless - it is still better than having tubes on both ends.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/05/21 at 12:37:06

They both claim to be "Tubeless Tire Applicable" - but the front may not be able to work safely without a tube inside the tubeless tire.

I don't know what the rest of you with cast 19" front wheels are doing.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/05/21 at 13:01:50

The wheels. Front one is much cleaner as it didn't have to deal with chain lube and all the dirt that the back wheel accumulates.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/05/21 at 13:19:03

Another alternative would be to repurpose the t-clamps, forks, axle, rakes & wheels from another bike that uses a 19" front wheel.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by badwolf on 03/05/21 at 17:02:55

Dave, I had to search to find the posts I did last year about tubed vs tubeless front rims...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1597455400/3#3

A picture in there with the two side by side, I think you DO have the tubeless rim. The tube type is waaaay diferent in profile with no square shoulders and a round center.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/05/21 at 18:25:50

Badwolf:

I definitely have the rim with the squarer shoulders....and it says it is Tubeless compatible.

It doesn't have the raised rib that holds the tire bead - like the rear wheel does.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by badwolf on 03/05/21 at 18:57:57

Dave, I don't think you'll find that on a front rim.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by verslagen1 on 03/05/21 at 19:34:45

pretty sure mine did.

I know I didn't have to modify anything to get the valve stem on.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by badwolf on 03/05/21 at 20:13:55

Your rim also has the recess for the base of the tubeless valve stem. It's tubeless.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by zipidachimp on 03/06/21 at 01:17:02

Got exactly the same wheels. was tempted to drill out the valve hole to fit. I'll let you go first! (lol) ! Rear wheel went on in less than 10 mins. 120/90-16 gives great handling, any bigger would be a waste!
Cheers! 8-)

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/06/21 at 04:48:12

Well there is not doubt that the "TUBELESS TIRE APPLICABLE" rim was made to be used with a tubeless tire - as the tire bead area is wider and made to seal air tight on the rim. The "tubed" tire that came off the front rim had a much narrower tire bead than a tubeless tire does.

In looking around for articles that discussed this issue most of the information was about cars. Evidently tubeless tires came into common use in the 1950's - the bead was not common until the 60's and not made mandatory until the late 70's. The common belief is that the bead only functions at low tire pressures and helps to keep the tire bead seated at very low tire pressures. On cars/trucks the tires are subject to side loads as you turn - and if you are cornering at very low tires pressures the beads can get pushed off the rim and all the air will rush out.

I can see how having the safety bead around the rim would help - but I am not sure that running a tubeless tire on this rim without a tube is any less safe than running the stock Savage spoked wheels with a tube....as long as you have adequate tire pressure. When you have a blowout on either the stock spoked wheel or the tubeless tire on a rim without the safety bead - the tire can come unseated. I have a friend who plays bass guitar in a band that broke 3 fingers while riding his Ducati 750GT. His tubed tire on a spoke wheel blew and deflated instantly - and when the tire unseated the bike went down on the left side.....there was nothing he could do to control the bike as the front tire wallowed around on the rim.

Here is an eBay listing that shows the rim as used tubeless. The narrow valve stem has nuts like a regular tubed valve stem....however the back side has a rubber seal.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/06/21 at 04:49:00

Here is the backside:

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/06/21 at 06:32:03

This looks like the type of valve stem that would be required. The stem size is the same as the threaded cap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pcs-Tire-Valves-Stem-Bolts-Screw-For-ATV-Lawn-Mower-Go-kart-Boat-Motorcycle/133648732139?hash=item1f1e15cfeb:g:cJIAAOSwdCdfhTYY

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/06/21 at 06:38:14

This looks like the type of valve stem that would be required. The stem size is the same as the threaded cap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-New-BikeMaster-151402-Chrome-Tubeless-Valve-Stems/382641160171?epid=171086001&hash=item591730bfeb:g:t0UAAOSwtilb9pbB

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by Dave on 03/11/21 at 16:21:57

So I have decided that I am going to run the front wheel tubeless - even though the rim doesn't have the bead along the inside edge.

I have decided that the bike would be safer with them - but it is not really any less safe than the stock wheel with spokes and a tube. If the stock wheel goes flat the tire is not likely going to stay seated - and the tire with a tube is more likely to get a "blow out" than a tubeless tire is. I am not sure why Suzuki did not put the bead on the rim - however after mounting the tire on the narrow 1.85" wide rim I wonder if there wasn't room for them like there is on the 2.50" wide rear rim.....the front tire was a bit tough to get mounted as there wasn't a lot of room for the beads to drop down into the wheel center as the tire was being mounted.

I have a feeling that others have already made this change and not worried - as the rim states it is Tubeless Compatible.

The metal valve stems worked fine. The stem went right into the back wheel - I did have to trim a bit off the diameter of the inside flange to allow it to seat properly in the front rim.

Title: Re: Cast Wheel Quandary
Post by ohiomoto on 03/11/21 at 16:33:43

Great work as always. My doner bike has the 19" front but I don't think it's labeled tubeless compatible.

I would like to see if I can get the 18" rear wheel to work on the LS. Seems like it has proven to be a no go for others.