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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Springer front end /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1592194438 Message started by SoC on 06/14/20 at 21:13:58 |
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Title: Springer front end Post by SoC on 06/14/20 at 21:13:58 Looking for insight on doing a springer front end on my '2011'. Would like it a little long and definitely with a front disc brake. Anyone know of a bolt up after market for the bike? My next question is what consideraration are there for adding a springer to a bike with rear shocks, I have heard several different opinions on this. I know there have been some conversions involving adding springer like Sanderman's, where he built his own, but I would like it a little more simple. Definitely do not want to go to a hard-tail. Thanks for any input on this. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/15/20 at 04:40:46 What you're looking for is a girder - I've seen many 70's amen savior framed bikes with girders - google - Durfee girder front end. There was even someone here 7-8 yrs ago with one. No idea if it had a disk or not. Good luck on the project. And pics please. PS: This looks a beaut. http://www.spartanframeworks.com/Forks/Girders.shtml Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by ohiomoto on 06/15/20 at 14:39:23 Cool idea, pics if you go for it! |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by DieselBob on 06/15/20 at 16:05:27 - Like srinath, my clear preference is for the girder. That said, I would argue that the springer does in fact play well when done right on the Savage. And if you were just a bit closer, we'd cobble one of those girders I have out on the shop onto your bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuTXjslggU&t=10s |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/16/20 at 13:07:53 Looks like a springer but acts like a girder (or something like that LOL) https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-C11-10-B21-250cc-Front-Springer-Girder-Fork-Assembly-Chrome-Black-paint/184208785903?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D5d98935ac4ad476c9c9a4daa648aea96%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D184208785903%26itm%3D184208785903%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A92d4b0ff-b00c-11ea-9d4d-74dbd180ea60%7Cparentrq%3Abebb94271720aaa30a548599fffe53fc%7Ciid%3A1 The problem with any of these I am seeing is - once again - as with all front end swaps - The tank. This promises to hit the tank … hard. As does the spartanframeworks one. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/16/20 at 13:19:25 Add shims to turn limiters? |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/16/20 at 13:25:50 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
It wont turn 3 degrees either way LOL. Of course most all modding with this bike, the first thing to go is the tank, it looks wrong on everything except a stock bike. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/17/20 at 04:02:33 This came up not 10 miles away. Columbia SC craigslist. $1750. https://columbia.craigslist.org/mcy/d/lexington-vintage-cl450-chopper-old/7142685566.html Not too shabby IMHO, but I'd have raked it further to get the original motor stance which I believe was vertical not canted back. Pics - in case the ad gets pulled. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/17/20 at 04:03:04 More pic. I cant tell if its canted back or not now, it may be the slope of the driveway or camera being tilted to one side. Dunno. Cool. Srinath |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/17/20 at 04:03:33 More pic |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/17/20 at 04:04:20 More pic, |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/17/20 at 13:23:05 I think I have enough contacts to make a "kit" for something like this - http://www.spartanframeworks.com/Forks/Girders.shtml Its not going to be welded but will require minimal welding, and it may be a bit open to shock choice/rake choice caliper location - BTW that design IMHO is likely to break at a few of those welds. As good a welder is, if they leave a weld open to pure shear like the tops of the springs IMHO is a disaster waiting to happen. I'll build it so the thing will stay in place even if there were no welds - almost 100% bolted together. Cos I am an engineer - a civil engineer and not a welder. I'd also like to get it completely adjustable for rake and wheel base with just shock and dog bone choice. I'll also try to build it around an easy to find used shock, like a Katana 600 so you have a lot of applicable swappers cos all rear shocks off nearly all monoshock bikes made ad-nauseum will fit with minimal dog bone mods. And dog bones being adjustable with many holes will do it some real good too. This is a good product that's missing a few easy options and complicates a few things unneccessarily. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by SoC on 06/17/20 at 20:00:43 Hey All, thanks for comments, I get the gridder thing, may have made a mis-statement to reference in original post. A springer is what I am imagining, with the offset at bottom to axle. I want to keep the bike level with just a bit of stretch up front. Fast650 sent me a link to Sugarbear, nice stuff but price is up around doing the Seeger/AME triples and extended forks. Looking for something more practical as to cost. Thought was with the post, is there an off the shelf springer that fits with little to no mods that anyone knows of? Building a custom springer is thrown away money, cost as much as the bike. Putting a 2k front end on a Savage is not in my budget, I would consider a grand. At that price if I couldn't sell ride, if necessary, I could swap it back to the forks and still have the springer. My thoughts at current are with 3 savage/s40's currently in my possesion there will be a Savage in the shop in mod mode for the forseeable future. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/18/20 at 08:10:48 I'm shooting for something in the $5-600 range - with finishing and welding left to the buyer. Also the non weld needed parts will be made with stainless. The welding will be minimal and the bike would roll and be transportable on trailers etc. That way you assemble it at your garage and trailer it to the muffler shop. Heck I'm hoping it will actually run pretty well to test ride it without welding, because once you weld it it may be not adjustable for rake, trail (independent of rake) etc. It will be fit to a savage wheel and brake. Drilling may be required for brake fitment the way I have it designed. Rest assured $1000 isn't going to be breached. But shock would need to be bought as is welding and brake line and a few other nic nacks. But savage front wheel, disk and caliper are to be reused. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/19/20 at 15:26:08 Gaaa looks like I'll have to redesign - or design, cant rip off spartanframeworks - the true girder at every pivot has a bushing or a needle bearing. Worse yet, the addition of rake isn't easy with the thing unless you want it to handle worthlessly cos it will have a huge negative trail. I'm on it, but may do a raked triple set to take dirt bike forks first. Cos he's got material for that yeaaaayyyyyy …. Now anyone has a CAD drawing of a savage triple ? Upper or lower is fine. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by DieselBob on 06/19/20 at 20:35:32 - Sure you don't want a leafy? And then, would those laser cut question marks in the front rotor be a form of situational irony? http://www.kchoppers.cz/image_show.php?file=upravy%2F002_savage%2Fsavage_009.jpg And I post this springer, not so much as an example of a springer, but for the upper forward controls mount. And now get that life insurance premium paid up, would you. http://https://img.index.hu/imgfrm/2/0/7/0/MED_0014252070.jpg |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/20/20 at 06:53:08 Those are both not bikes I've ever seen … but I am also shooting for a 9 degree rake. Else a springer is a joke, you can buy an Injun made one for $330 or so, mod it a bit and viola. https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-3HW-3SW-WWII-350CC-FRONT-END-GIRDER-FORKS-CHROME-BLACK-PAINT/143629920836?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D12f9b99615c3478498d9bc8b408a1966%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D184318819890%26itm%3D143629920836%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DTriumph&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af6b808fe-b2fc-11ea-af40-74dbd180715d%7Cparentrq%3Ad1fe716c1720aca49bff097efff65e6b%7Ciid%3A1 Its actually worth asking those guys a few questions and seeing what they've done with the stem, what dia the axle is (which is likely decipherable from the model they sell it for. In any case, the rake is what's gonna require the engineering, and the fact that I would take trail to near 0 making it handle light and low effort - far far lower than a stock savage if you were to do like my dirt bike FE of 10 yrs ago. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by Dave on 06/20/20 at 08:17:42 srinath: Not sure what you mean by "take the trail to near 0" - but if you do you will get an evil handling bike. Normal trail is between 3-6 inches. http://www.thompsonchoppers.com/rake-and-trail-calculator/ |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/20/20 at 09:03:35 Trail should on a raked out bike should be low - well under the 3". The wheel base gonna determine your turning radius and how nimble it actually is. The rake which would get close to 45 degrees will also make for a slow steering bike. Trail should be low, else the effort to steer would be ridiculous not to mention raking it at the neck vs raking with triples has its own set of math. You remember about my KX125 fork fitted bike right. It had 9 degrees of rake all at the triple. he ride height was almost unchanged from stock. If I had the forks fitted the right way - with the axle leading - the bike handled like crap. Flip the legs left to right and the axle trailing instant heaven. It felt lighter to steer than a stock savage, in also was quicker off the line and oddly I thought it just was better in every way compared to a savage - handling, braking, acceleration etc etc etc. Now the front end contribution is mainly the fact that while it added almost a foot to the wheel base and 9+ to the rake it also turned a small negative trail from the right way to a small positive trail by flipping, a 21" aluminum wheel spins slower at any speed than the stock 19 and its narrower, lighter by a lot (aluminum vs steel) and the best part was due to the kinetic energy of rotation dependent on square of the rpm, cutting the rpm by 20% gives you a 44%+ reduction in RKE. The rear end was lightened by tossing the fender, rear seat sissy bar etc etc etc as well as that boat anchor of a muffler and the carrier bracket was cut to just the minimum required to slap the exhaust can. Instant nirvana - just from that, but the handling is where the front end shines. The trail for a non raked @ the triple with 3" - 6" would work. Obviously a lot of jap bikes are built around those numbers. But the raking at the triple is an entirely new animal. That's why I keep saying 9 degrees, dirt bike front end flip the legs 1000's of times. If you've ridden a virago 535 or even a vulcan 750 or a Yamaha 700 maxim etc etc you'd see a bike with an extra 100 lb or so handles with such lighter effort than the savage. The savage is light and has low CG and you'd think 5.8 trail would make it light handling, except that offset in the triples is killer. That's one reason it has such high effort to steer compared to anything even much heavier. Rake it an added 9+ stretch it a foot and nowhere near 5.8 would be rideable. Stuff like the seeger kit - I have to look into it maybe it makes the trail near 0 but running a dirt bike FE the right way will get you negative trail. Actually let me build my FE and I'll send y'all an invite to come and ride it - Near Columbia SC. When you're this way you're welcome to come by. I actually have some guys who I'm talking to about building it as a custom item - you buy a dirt FE and send me the fork diameter and the c/c distance and I'll cut plates with 9 degree rake. Sort of like a mail in custom service. Lets see how it works out for the prototype. Below is the bike I did 10+ yrs ago, and sadly it was rear ended on the first ride (almost) I sepnt 3 months going to chiropractor every week and I sold that bike within days of the accident cos I was just not having happy thoughts about it. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by jcstokes on 06/22/20 at 01:03:37 https://youtu.be/hJ3IxKiWB_I See if it works |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/22/20 at 07:10:36 I've been emailing those guys, asking them for a detailed upper triple drawing, and if they're thick enough to mig weld or has to be tig welded cos we need a brake bracket and some other general info like that, and promptly they reply saying - get this - It will cost $1600. OK then, sounds great, lets order 100 and - No I don't think so. I'll first start with the raked out mail order triples made to fit dirt bike forks. Lets see if the guys want to mess with my bike standing in their shop - apparently there is an entire gaggle of welders, machinists, fabricators and none of em rides a motorcycle. I think I've found the only pack of 50-60 metal smiths who don't ride a bike like WTFFFFFFFFFFFF. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by ohiomoto on 06/22/20 at 16:15:00 Doesn't look too promising on those Indian units... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ3IxKiWB_I[/media] |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/23/20 at 05:24:44 5C5B5A5C5E5C475C330 wrote:
And they dont have any people skill either. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by SoC on 06/23/20 at 21:20:17 So, lots of discussion, but my original question was intended to be about a springer that was an easy fit on our ride. Not looking to, as they say, re-invent the wheel here in fabrication, just maybe do some bolt up, spacer install type modiication. My toughts were stock offsets good. Maybe a little stretch, increase rake, but not change level of bike. I had a recommend from Fast to look into Sugarbear, got an exposure to them on Counting Cars last week, money just too much. Companies like TC Bros have a $500.00 front end for a Yamaha XS 650, but they specify it to dimensions of a Harly, which is actually what they modify for application. For example they say it is a "standard length for a Harley", but with bearings to fit an XS 650, but don't really tell you what those dimensions are. I was just looking for some reference for going forward. So my question really was has anyone bolted a springer on and what was it, and what was involved to do it. Thanks to all who replied. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/24/20 at 05:22:41 IIRC yamaha bearings were 25 and 28mm Suzuki like the savage was 25 30. You may be able to get the 55 OD needed in a 28ID lower and slap that in there and the stock upper would work. The basic idea is upper is 25 id 47 OD, lower is 30 X 55. 189mm free stem length. If you can ream that lower triple 2mm OD you can put the savage stem in there. Oh a stock HD is 1" - may be the 25mm upper will fit it but you can just sleeve the lower to 30 mm. Its 2 mins for a machinist even if you had to shave the upper 1" to 25mm. Then you could just use a HD wheel/disk set. Remember the legs of that springer will clobber the stock tank. So you'd need to change that. But you may end up with a much better handling bike, even the stock rake springer FE looks long and like it will leave your offset much smaller than the savage has right as it is, making for a low trail. Try it and post back. The biggest issue I was facing was that I am trying to rake it just with the front end. I need to design it etc etc and no one wants to make it looks like. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by Fast 650 on 06/24/20 at 11:57:35 Another thing to watch out for when adapting a springer made for a different model, it is easy to get the geometry all messed up. With the wrong combination of rake and rocker length, it is possible to turn the wheel to the left and discover that the bike is turning right even though the wheel is still turned to the left. If it does that you and the bike will fall hard in the blink of an eye. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by DieselBob on 06/24/20 at 15:06:42 To an earlier point, many of Sugar Bear's springers had 0 trail. And handled beautifully. Kinda hard to get my head around. But then, given the severe rake and weight of those bikes, you'd want to do all you could to avoid the potential for "flop" I suppose. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/24/20 at 16:22:20 0 trail means the rake and wheel base keep the bike from changing direction too quickly without a handlebar input (rather the wheel doesn't force a handlebar input nor does it take monster effort to prevent it), however on a light as a feather bike like a savage if you don't rake it more than say 12 or so degrees and don't stretch it more than a foot or so, you could get a fantastically low steering effort bike is 1" or therebouts of trail. This sucker handled with near no effort - might have hit 1" for its trail number. Stable as the gold standard till you tip the handlebar or lean the bike. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/24/20 at 16:23:58 This was a nightmare - same bike, forks wheel etc - just installed the right way around. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/25/20 at 13:11:26 I've seen some of those sugar bear choppers, huge huge girder/springer front ends, with even a massive Klingon "batleth" like extension and a 21" wheel … The part that's hard to see is - the rake is in the neck. The neck may be raked 50 degrees, the massive front end would turn that 50 rake to say 48. But the wheelbase is now several feet longer, mass in centralized cos the motor, the rear wheel and the rider are several feet away from the front end. Then they have the huge extension to fit a 21" wheel … effectively the whole thing ends with … 0 trail. It steers with low effort - but obviously like something that's 10 feet long. I'd almost say its a good compromise to get a good looking (if that's your preferred look) and a rideable bike as long as you know your front wheel is in the next zip code. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Springer front end Post by srinath on 06/26/20 at 06:08:48 https://cyclesource.com/chopper-history-with-sugar-bear/ That front end apparently handles like a feather. The rake and wheel base dictate how it handles obviously, mentally you can disconnect though, light as a feather, you flip the bars left and think you're on a GP bike with the effort only to have it remind you painfully that it is 18' long and weighs 3 tons. But see Harleys have the neck ahead of the forks on some models, that one definitely looks so. The Savage is so freaking terrible in that aspect. So that axe looking thing essentially lets the trail be 0 otherwise it will have like 9-12" if the wheel was fit right at the bottom of the forks. Cool. Srinath. |
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