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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1588622811 Message started by philthymike on 05/04/20 at 13:06:51 |
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Title: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/04/20 at 13:06:51 The Clymer book says 40-60 Nm. Set the wrench to 50 and snap - off with the head. Set the wrench to 45 and snap - off with the head. Set wrench to 40 and snap - off with the head. Before I decapitate the final bolt, WTF? Bad bolts? Bad torque value? Bad wrench? FWIW the wrench is brand new and I have been using it on many other bolts without problems. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/04/20 at 13:18:29 If those are the 10mm head, 6mm thread, then 6-7 ft/lb. 72-84 inch pound. 4(?) NM |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/04/20 at 13:45:52 6-7 ft-lbs is 8 to 9.5 nm According to Clymer the Clutch Spring bolts should be torqued to 11-13 Nm or 8 to 10 ft-lbs (Chapter 5, Clutch, Table 2. page 163). There's nothing in the clutch assembly that gets torqued to 40-60Nm as you noted. The clutch lock nut is closest at 36-51 ft-lbs (50-70 Nm). |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/04/20 at 14:20:27 I see now. For some reason I failed to find table 2 on 163 and not finding it thought it must be referring to table 2 on page 20 under General Information. Doh! My bad. Still, they couldn't put the value in line with the text for step 22 on page 158?. Or at least provide the page number for table 2? Step 22 could have easily read "Using a crisscross pattern, tighten the clutch bolts to X lbs. Instead of "Using a crisscross pattern, tighten the clutch bolts to the torque specifications listed in Table 2. It's 6 less words to just put the value in line and save having to go to another page. Seriously anal retentive authors... |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/04/20 at 14:35:36 After you do this for a while, you'll realize that 30-45 ft/lbs for a 6mm fastener is WAY wrong, even if that is what you are reading. In my bike class I have a block of aluminum that I've threaded 6, 8, and 10mm. I have the students (using a torque wrench) torque bolts into the block at the standard torque specs for those sizes. Just so they'll know what is 'normal' for those size bolts. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/04/20 at 14:50:57 445C5D58405C4D595D5F51340 wrote:
I've been using Clymer manuals since the early '80's. They aren't always the best, but they are consistent - torque tables are always at the end of the chapter. I guess so it's easier to edit. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/04/20 at 14:58:57 6963676D666F6B623C3A3E0E0 wrote:
I've been using Clymer manuals since the early '80's. They aren't always the best, but they are consistent - torque tables are always at the end of the chapter. I guess so it's easier to edit.[/quote] I find it infuriating. Especially when the Clutch chapter refers you back to chapter 1 for clutch adjustment instructions. Seriously? And of course it doesn't say which page in chapter 1. But consistency for me would be having clutch adjustment procedure in the chapter for the clutch. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/04/20 at 15:03:25 457669616A040 wrote:
The bolts are 10mm. It wasn't an unusual torque value for the size. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by verslagen1 on 05/04/20 at 15:16:01 3129282D3529382C282A24410 wrote:
The bolts are 10mm. It wasn't an unusual torque value for the size.[/quote] The hex may be 10mm but the threads are M6. and you may get away torquing those to 30-45 a couple of times, but they'll break sooner or later... more likely sooner. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/04/20 at 16:15:27 Philthy, Common mistake. Fasteners are described by their thread diameter, not wrench size. Most 6mm bolts are 10mm wrench size. 8mm are either 12 or 13. 10 can be 14, 15, 16, or 17. And so on. I remember once a student in my bike class announced that all the motor mount bolts were defective, and had broken when he torqued them. Turns out he was going by the 12mm wrench size instead of the 8mm thread diameter. Instant two piece bolts! oooops ::) |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/05/20 at 06:59:43 I'm gonna chalk this up to never doing hooked on phonics as a kid. Ordered a new pressure plate to the tune of $41. Lesson learned.... |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by norm92de on 05/06/20 at 14:16:02 I'm really not trying to be a smart ass. But I seldom use a torque wrench. I have worked on bikes, cars and anything else that happened to get in my way for many years. Never break a bolt or strip threads. What am I doing wrong? Perhaps on a cylinder head or something like that I would use one but routine work never. Maybe somebody up there likes me? I am not plagued by leaks or anything else on my stuff. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. :) |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by ohiomoto on 05/06/20 at 16:33:09 I'm with you norm92de. I probably do 90-95% of my work by feel. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/07/20 at 07:06:17 True confessions, I'm with you Norm. Use torque wrenches for stuff like cylinder heads. A lot of the stuff I work on is old, and have had more hands on them than a drunk hooker at a frat party. Doing by feel allows me to feel the threads/fastener to stretch. Many times the right torque spec on old stuff means ripping the threads out. Loctite is your friend on old stuff. And every now and the the manuals are wrong. I could bore you with examples, but I've busted lots of stuff using torque specs. For a beginner, a torque wrench is a good way to develop a sense of how tight is tight enough. When I teach my class and have folks torque bolts to spec, they almost all say they would have over-torqued the 6mm fasteners and under torqued the 10mm ones. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/07/20 at 07:18:19 Depends on the fastener. Engine parts, fame bolts, almost anything M8 or higher I use a torque wrench. For the run of the mill stuff, M5, M6..I go by feel...and blue loctite when I'm concerned. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/07/20 at 16:23:05 If you're tightening bolts compressing springs can you really get any accuracy by feel? And parts I ordered are indefinitely backordered. Crappy. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/08/20 at 06:06:29 Eventually the plate bottoms out, and you can feel the difference as it is being loaded. Not sure if thats clear, but you will feel a difference. If you use a small wrench, not a long torque wrench. Stuff like this is perfect for a set of T handle wrenches. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/08/20 at 06:20:45 7A6263667E62736763616F0A0 wrote:
Why not use an extractor to remove the broken bolts? |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/08/20 at 15:27:28 I saw a guy use an engraver to run bolts out. Unless youve got the skill and experience and equipment to get a drill centered, you will only ruin stuff.. The bolts are harder than what they go into,, dont try drilling, If the broken end is high enough to work with, maybe you can do it, but your best bet, before you touch it, take it to a machine shop and ask what they can do ..Ive been treated very nicely by machinists. They often charge average folks less per hour than their Big Industry customers. You might need to check out more than one,, and looking for Motorcycle parking and bikes is never a bad idea. You can also call the dealerships and ask where they take their heads and stuff,, |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/09/20 at 07:47:56 After trying to extract the stripped seat bolt unsuccessfully I'm gonna pass on extraction. I ended up having to drill the bolt out and tapping the hole left in the welded on stand-off in the fender. I ordered a used clutch assy from EBay. It'll be delivered today. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/20 at 10:54:48 Probably a wise solution.. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by ohiomoto on 05/10/20 at 13:00:45 I'm not too proud to admit that I've failed more times than not with my bolt extraction. Another "black art" I haven't mastered. haha |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/20 at 20:03:40 The smaller th bolt, the worse the odds.. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/11/20 at 09:18:32 So the used clutch that came the other day is complete and in excellent condition. The pressure plate and bolts are all I need from it though. When Babbits finally gets the pressure plate in stock again and ships it out I'll use that part to make this used clutch complete again and try selling it here or Ebay. I don't want to put a good clutch to waste. Babbits just emailed to say the bolts and other parts for my order have shipped. That's good news. No ETA on the pressure plate though. Anyone here see themselves needing an entire clutch assy in the near future? |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/11/20 at 09:19:33 This is the used assy from EBay. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/11/20 at 09:41:56 That's a fairly new looking unit. Ebay is always a crap-shoot...you appear to have done well. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/11/20 at 10:07:24 The price was right too - $69! Very well packed, shipped immediately - within hours of clicking Buy Now. Good communication and the package contained a proper invoice, a thank you note and business cards with contact info. I'm impressed. The seller is xylomx on Ebay and has 100% positive reviews. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/11/20 at 10:46:30 Hey Mike, Congrats on the buy! If you want to send me the piece with the busted bolts, I can try to get them out. I have some vague idea what I'm doing, and have three drawers of hammers :-0 |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/11/20 at 10:52:32 447768606B050 wrote:
It's all yours. Send a private message with your addy. I probably won't work on the bike again until the weekend since I'm still waiting on the gasket and fancy clutch tool. But I'll be sure to set the old pressure plate aside for you. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/13/20 at 10:18:41 Got 2 parts orders today and Babbits shipped the backordered pressure plate so looks like I'll be back in business soon. It seems ordering the used clutch was unnecessary in retrospect but at the time I didn't know how long the backordered parts would take. Anyway I've got a used clutch for sale now - $69 (what I paid). Can't wait to try this fancy clutch tool. I almost went over sideways trying to tighten the big nut while applying the rear brake. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by verslagen1 on 05/13/20 at 10:25:03 3B2322273F23322622202E4B0 wrote:
Been there, done that, learned a better way. put a ratchet strap around the OD of the wheel to the frame. tighten down the strap and that wheel ain't going nowhere. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/13/20 at 10:34:05 4A594E4F505D5B59520D3C0 wrote:
Been there, done that, learned a better way. put a ratchet strap around the OD of the wheel to the frame. tighten down the strap and that wheel ain't going nowhere.[/quote] Funny part here is a just recently used a ratchet strap to open a can of PVC pipe joint cement and put the thing away without it even dawning on me that I could have tried it on the bike. Doh, stupid brain! :D |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/13/20 at 11:59:06 Against advice in the manual, Ive never messed with the clutch that I didnt use my IR 1/2" drive impact,, And never had a problem,, |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by badwolf on 05/13/20 at 13:55:14 I also use my impact wrench, and a rag jammed into the primary gears. works! |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/13/20 at 16:07:10 I use a chuck of leather in the gears, but,, whatever,, A penny just might not be the best answer.. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/15/20 at 07:12:29 Well I have the special tool now so I guess I'm a big wimp compared to all these other manly-man, bubby-rigged and half-assed solutions. Shame on me for wanting to use the right tools for the job. Remaining backordered parts came in yesterday and in time for the weekend. Let's see if I can manage to do it right this time around without busting crap like a clutz. Itching like mad to get out riding.... |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/16/20 at 10:50:33 Clutch all put back together and cable adjusted. Working good now. Have to get used to the heavier pull from Barnett Springs. Finally have the powder coated clutch cover installed. Need to go bed in my new pads and rotors now. That fancy tool was useless. Couldn't fit the socket through the hole in the middle. Of all the dumb stupid things.... Back to the store with it! Note: Vertex gaskets do not have the sealant applied. You gotta diy |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/20 at 11:10:05 Bummer that your best efforts to do it right were thwarted. So, which manly-man, bubby-rigged and half-assed solution did you wind up goin with? |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/16/20 at 11:30:21 2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:
Put the old lady on the bike to push the brake pedal ;D |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/20 at 11:51:05 I wonder how much concern I could have avoided had I only asker her to stepon that pedal... Smart move,, |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/16/20 at 12:41:05 If you want to send me the tool and the socket, I can either skim the socket or open up the hole in the tool, or both. Was it an impact socket? Those are usually more full figured. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/16/20 at 12:52:39 NO MORE STINKING CLUTCH SLIPPAGE!!!!! HALLEFREAKINLUJAH!!!- 8-) |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/20/20 at 11:23:34 Hey hey, Got the package today. Turned the clutch plate over, found the biggest transfer punch that would fit in the hole (thru holes, not blind), gave each broken bolt a center dimple, and drilled them from the back with a standard drill bit. Once the bit caught, the broken bolt started to unscrew, Grabbed it with a vise grip and unscrewed the rest of the way. Chased the holes with a 6x1 tap in case the threads were unhappy. All told, about 10 minutes. So, what size socket were you using on the clutch nut? Not enough metal to open up in the clutch tool Have to turn down a socket. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/20/20 at 12:45:17 Sweet job Armen. Very cool method you used. Man, would you look at the stretch in those threads. You think Mike got em tight enough? ::) |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/20/20 at 15:36:27 5E6D727A711F0 wrote:
My Hero! Dang dude I'm at a loss for words. 10 minutes? Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick! I think the socket was 32 mm. You can see in the picture how bad it is. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/20/20 at 16:01:32 6A6C631F1D1A1E2E0 wrote:
Sometimes I don't know my own strength. Or reading comprehension level :( |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by Armen on 05/20/20 at 19:53:42 I honestly don't see how that tool could work. No room for a socket. Is it supposed to sit deeper? Not enough metal for me to open up the hole in the holder. |
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Title: Re: Torque Clutch Springs Bolts? Post by philthymike on 05/20/20 at 20:11:44 497A656D66080 wrote:
I don't get it. They took such pains to make it fit the hub... ??? I know I make some dumb mistakes but this kind of thing is just hard to fathom. :-/ |
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