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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Not starting blues /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1587492074 Message started by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 11:01:14 |
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Title: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 11:01:14 i was able to get the carburetor on my 2011 S40 cleaned and rejetted. This is an unknown bike to me having bought it not running. It hadn’t run for about 4 years according to the PO. It has fuel and spark but just cranks and cranks. I tried a shot of starting fluid still won’t pop. This usually means bad news in my experience. Any ideas of things to check before I start looking deeper. I thought about doing a compression test but not sure if that will work with compression release. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 11:44:19 Only compression reading I get is very low...35 PSI. Went up 10 with a squirt of oil. :-X |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/21/20 at 12:49:05 That's also possible in a perfectly fine bike due to the decompression solenoid working properly. You sure you're getting fuel ? I had a clogged pilot jet in a perfectly clean carb. In fact the only part I cleaned was the carb and it fired up first try. I'd bet something is off in the carb. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Yoshi on 04/21/20 at 12:54:12 You said you have spark but is it nice blue strong spark? Fuel and spark with some compression should atleast light up for a second. Whats the mileage? Valves opening and closing correctly? |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/20 at 12:55:07 I'd disconnect the decompression |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 13:15:30 I did disconnect the compression release. Same number. 35 PSI. Yes I was thinking even with low compression it should at least pop. I put new jets in the carb so it’s not a plugged pilot jet. Spark is bright blue. Bike has 5500 miles on it. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/21/20 at 13:56:04 29282323243E2A2F4D0 wrote:
A lot of people think that - except if you have 35 psi compression, you're likely under 1/2 (negative) that in suction. Not enough to suck a lungful of air fuel into the chamber. That's why the bike doesn't run with low compression. Now make sure you're not misdiagnosing this clean to an unnecessary engine rebuild - The valve clearance and timing is your next step to check and adjust. Relatively easy to do. Do that and you'd know if the timing of the valves opening closing is right OH BTW Compression check to be done with throttle WFO - You did that right ? don't worry, tripped up many an "expert" mechanic. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 14:35:17 Dang..I didn’t open the throttle. I have the carb off now, will that act like WO throttle? |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/20 at 14:38:00 Oil the cylinder.. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 14:56:10 I did oil the cylinder. Reads 60 PSI with carb off. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/21/20 at 15:13:36 11100B0C03160A620 wrote:
This is interesting. I did also spray some starting fluid into the intake and got a little muffled puff. 11100B0C03160A620 wrote:
Yes this was my next step. I can see the intake valve opening and closing so that’s something anyway. Could the valves be out of adjustment enough to cause it not to be able to suck fuel...I’ve never run across that in my 50+ years of working on engines. The way it’s acting it seems like valves are out of time. I will check the valve clearances first and see where it leads me |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by ohiomoto on 04/21/20 at 18:51:53 A low milage bike, if it looks to be complete and unmolested, is probably solid. Don't overthink this...yet. You got a puff with the starting fluid. Keep in mind that WOT only opens the butterfly in front of the carb. The slide is still at idle so very little starter fluid is getting through very fast. Did you remove the airbox? If so you can open the slide a little bit when you shoot the starter fluid in there IF NEEDED. Don't go starting any fires! It's probably a fuel issue. You said you have fuel, but are you sure it's getting to the engine? Start with the simple stuff first. Is your petcock functioning properly? Have you checked that you have fuel in the carb? Replacing a clogged jets doesn't guarantee that fuel is actually flowing through the carb. Did you test the float needle and seat? What about the petcock? Is it the stock petcock? If so, did you test it? Did you test the vacuum lines? Are they pulling vacuum? Did the PO give you any indication of why it sat for so long? If they didn't tell me something bad and the bike doesn't look like it was torn apart (and it shouldn't at 5500 miles) there is no way I'm looking at the top end of this bike until I've exhausted all other possibilities. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 06:39:15 Is your petcock functioning properly? Testing on a bottle. No tank Have you checked that you have fuel in the carb? Float bowl is full. Did you test the float needle and seat? Yes, everything checked out when cleaning carb. Fuel is getting into carb and float is shutting off What about the petcock? Is it the stock petcock? If so, did you test it? Did you test the vacuum lines? Are they pulling vacuum? As I said I testing on a bottle. I have the vacuum line blocked as I replaced the petcock with a Raptor. Did the PO give you any indication of why it sat for so long? If they didn't tell me something bad and the bike doesn't look like it was torn apart (and it shouldn't at 5500 miles) there is no way I'm looking at the top end of this bike until I've exhausted all other possibilities. PO said bike sat because he bought a Harley and just didn’t ride it anymore. I agree with what your saying here. I’ve been working on bikes for 50+ years and do a lot of turn bikes. Usually on a non runner, fluid change and carb clean is all that’s needed. This one is acting like a timing issue or really bad valve adjustments. I’m starting to suspect someone tried to adjust the valves and messed things up. I don’t hear any noise in the engine when rotating so doesn’t seem major. I need to fix the leaky head plug anyway, so that will give me an opportunity to look at things and check the timing. From there I should get some answers. Appreciate the comments. It’s helpful to think thru things. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/22/20 at 06:46:05 Checking timing is far far easier than getting to the head plug. Don't over complicate this. And yes an open valve can kill compression, and if exhaust is hanging open it will kill suction, obviously. The jump to 60 psi from carb is a good sign. Could you have sticking rings ? Never tried those penetrating stuff in the cyl - but worth a soak and recheck. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/22/20 at 07:00:37 Going into places that create an opportunity to create another problem before youve got it running goes against everything I know about fixin stuff.. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by ohiomoto on 04/22/20 at 10:45:02 I think Dennis will be fine. I forget which of the newer members are on it and which need it dumbed down. Still, I agree with JOG. I like the idea of sticky rings, and I like the idea of getting a bit more than a puff before proceeding. I'd stick with it a bit more before getting into valves and plug leaks. I mean I guess you never know why that guy bought that Harley. Maybe it's toasted. :) |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 11:25:57 56574C4B44514D250 wrote:
I think I’ll try soaking it. The carb had black shiny stuff in it. If by chance some fuel leaked into the cylinder during storage... I need to clean the bench today before I work on it anyway. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/22/20 at 11:31:37 05040F0F08120603610 wrote:
I think I’ll try soaking it. The carb had black shiny stuff in it. If by chance some fuel leaked into the cylinder during storage... I need to clean the bench today before I work on it anyway. [/quote] Oh yea - you need some mega strength penetrating stuff in the cyls and you still may need a few heat cycles to get them all cleaned out. Black stuff is caked up gas ? Usually I've seen it like maple syrup - but I guess if it sits it turns to molasses then to coal. Did it overflow from the carb ? Usually overflowing happens before it turns to black cake. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 11:34:29 24252E2E29332722400 wrote:
I think I’ll try soaking it. The carb had black shiny stuff in it. If by chance some fuel leaked into the cylinder during storage... I need to clean the bench today before I work on it anyway. [/quote] Yeah I’ve rebuilt many engines over the years. This is not very complicated compared to my CBR’s ;) No fear here tearing into it. At some point I will need to fix that head plug because it’s leaking pretty good. I hate all that ugly oil all over the front of the engine. The PO seemed like a decent guy but you never know in these situations. As we all know when you take on a non runner it’s a crap shoot. I’ve been lucky over the years but have had a few clunkers. Bought a Yamaha Raptor 4 wheeler that the guy installed a clutch in and put the balancer in upside down...and never told me any of it. Took a long time to figure that one out. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by batman on 04/22/20 at 12:10:04 You may need to adjust the valves , rotate the motor to TDC by turning it in the same direction as the wheels (the Clymer manual has it backward) |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 12:52:01 282B3E272B247E724A0 wrote:
Thank you. I discovered that mistake here and a buddy told me that to. Not sure why anyone would turn it backwards. Hard to find TDC that way ;D |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 14:57:42 I found my bore scope in it’s melted case from the fire in my shop. The unit was inside and actually works! I stuck it down the spark plug hole and the cylinder is scored badly and the piston is melted on the edges :'( Looks like a full rebuild. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/22/20 at 16:59:35 77767D7D7A607471130 wrote:
How did that happen at sitting ? Anyway looks like that bike is in the right hands. It likely was running lean. My MZ660 cracked a piston from being high compression and I bought it where the PO didn't tell me and I let it get clogged etc etc and run lean. Hairline crack - in fact it ran till I shut throttle after 15 miles of WFO. Anyway - fix all its other problems too - look on the mods and improvements etc etc page. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/22/20 at 18:24:02 Yes it’s taking me into a well known territory. If you have to rebuild do it right. No economy is not doing all the good stuff. Now I get to pour over the forum posts from a completely different angle :) |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/23/20 at 07:47:43 I really suspect you may have had the oil filter backwards story as well. The cyl piston scoring sounds like heat and lack of oil. I cant believe it would happen on a savage with a functioning lube system. BTW I noticed the post 2009 time frame the quality of most jap bikes, especially Suzuki took a crap. The most significant one is the GS500. The 89-95 bikes were of IMHO the best quality, 96-2000 was second. 01-02 was third and 04-09 when they moved production to spain was dismal. To top it off they slapped a wanna be GSXR fairing on it, that made it cut through the wind better and top out at higher speeds, so people also wrung them out more. Well on a savage - Question to the general forum's intelligence - did there be a drop in quality. Maybe more Chinese parts were used etc etc. I know the 4 speed first gen bikes had the starter gear breaking issue, but really I fixed 2 of those and proceeded to ride those for years after. The rest of the bike was solid. IMHO - just a little rust prone. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/23/20 at 08:25:25 IIRC, back during the first search for treated cam chains, a big conversation came out on that. The cam chain, according to some early reports n Old Style Savages, the chain lasted longer,, Well,, maybe so,, But, IMO, the Big chain wrecker is the tensioner design. Will a nitrided chain last longer,, Orobably, but nobody I know of has a nitrided chain who isnt also using a modified tensioner.. The valve adjusters have gone through some changes, better now? Maybe,.The rockers are no longer just a polished cast, they have a hard surface applied. The rear brake on the 02 worked Great! The 05? Just Look at it and lock it up.. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by verslagen1 on 04/23/20 at 08:43:42 The newer tensioners do have a stronger spring and that will impact life of the chain. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/23/20 at 09:07:23 43504746595452505B04350 wrote:
Newer as in what year ? BTW the CCT comes apart in 2 and Suzuki "fixes" that by putting in a stiffer spring ??? :o Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/23/20 at 09:37:57 I really suspect you may have had the oil filter backwards story as well. The cyl piston scoring sounds like heat and lack of oil. I cant believe it would happen on a savage with a functioning lube system. Maybe. Hard to know without the back info. When I changed the oil not much came out and it was thick and black like molasses with a funky smell. After the fact it makes sense. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by srinath on 04/23/20 at 10:05:01 3F3E353532283C395B0 wrote:
That's just not changing oil - even so I doubt in 5K it lost that much and it turned black etc. But who knows - maybe this one burns more at high speed. Just build it back perfect and set ring gaps etc etc perfect. It will not burn oil then, and check guides and seals etc too. I've run 4K on my bolt, a lot of it at high speed, putting on those miles rather rapidly - in a span of maybe 3.5 week in the peak of summer. It has a 4qt capacity and every bit of 4qt came out - yea was black but it was still "oil" not molasses by any stretch of the imagination. Of course it was a running bike, and I drained it after a 100+ mile ride waiting barely long enough to find my wrenches and drain pan. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Not starting blues Post by Dennisgb on 04/23/20 at 10:26:36 The amount of oil in the engine didn’t show on the site glass. It was very low on oil. I just assumed the oil had been drained for storage...except most people wouldn’t do that. I think it was run without oil rather that a backward s oil filter. The filter cover was intact and filter was in the right way. I’m struggling a bit with the project having lost my shop. My work area isn’t the best right now. After reading up on the rebuild process it looks like the engine will need to be removed. Figured that anyway given the damage it will need the bottom end looked at. |
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