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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> May have ruined engine. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1586363497 Message started by Bokobob on 04/08/20 at 09:31:37 |
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Title: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/08/20 at 09:31:37 2009 Suzuki Boulevard s40. Thumper. I'll get to the "failure" in a moment. Changed oil several days ago. Shell Rotella T, conventional, 15W40. Did not change filter..I didn't have a new one. Rode bike probably 200 miles total from new oil change to yesterday morning..Had it up to 70 mph a half mile at a time for a few times when out in the country. Started bike yesterday morning (cold engine) with full choke and no throttle...Ran good for a few seconds and stalled. (Not unusual for this bike) Tried starting again two more times or so and it got going and wanted to falter again so I pushed in the choke about halfway and "helped" it with the throttle..(Please don't scold me.) The engine was revving vigorously but hardly more than a third of its rpm capacity if that even. This whole starting episode from the very beginning to the very end lasted less than a minute. The final time I started it - third or fourth try - it revved up and all of a sudden two thirds of the three-sided metal cover for the oil filter was blown off clear across the garage. Lots of oil "dumped" out..The engine either quit or I shut it off (forget which) immediately. Did a lot of research and watched a few tutorials trying to find out what to do. Got on Ebay and bought a number of items: new metal sidecover, small and larger o rings applicable to the oil filter and filter cover, springs, OEM filters. Cleaned up the mess and added 1.5 quarts of oil to the crankcase. leaned the bike way over to left side and right side and notice no leaks... Now oil level glass is just at the full mark...must have not lost every bit of the old oil. I am wondering if once I get it buttoned up when the new parts and supplies arrived and I install them if you good folks think I should just try to start it up? If not, what would you suggest, please. Many thanks... |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/08/20 at 09:43:28 This bike can survive on very very little oil. However you may have had a blockage in the flow, likely in the oil galley. Bottom end is ball bearings. Cams are in an oil puddle, the end bearings for the cams are plain bearings - need oil pressure. There is an gasket groove on the upper side of the right case that's required to be clear to let oil pressure to the cam bearings. You may have a plugged up oil passage there, or a bypass spring etc installed wrong. But losing that cover also meant you likely have bad threads in the case where that cover bolts go in. Make sure that those bolts threads are intact before proceeding. The oil galleys also should be clear and not plugged. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by oldNslow on 04/08/20 at 09:54:26 look at this http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1099572561 scroll down till you find Verslagen1's reply titled "OK newbs, pay close attention here" I think your oil filter was installed backwards. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/08/20 at 09:56:06 If you will park it till the corona clamp down ends - I will come by clean the carb and swap the float bolts for allen and we can inspect and attempt to start it. You got the other one running right - just ride it. Man I cant get my 17 yr old to learn/ride without literally dragging him every inch of the way. And you're here @ 85 raring to go every chance you get. These Millennials are just another breed of lazy. The minute you tell them for having sex you have to move, you can hear most of them letting out a groan. And that will be the guys, the girls would likely ask - do I have to move or just the boys. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/08/20 at 09:58:45 023C3D31233F3E500 wrote:
Oh wow, you guys have every aspect covered - I didn't even know that was possible - not only is it possible someone already done it and has the scars to prove it LOL. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/08/20 at 12:25:46 5967666A7864650B0 wrote:
He said he didn't change the filter. Moreover he put 200 miles on the bike after he changed the oil. The typical filter blowout happens immediately. Something else is going on. Do not start the engine just yet, because you'll likely will get the result. I have to give this some thought to think about what could be causing such a blockage the filter become ballistic. Bob, did you account for everything you used to change the oil? Is it possible that a rag or something else found its way into the engine? Did you find anything on the floor or lodged in the filter that looked like it came from your workbench? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/20 at 12:34:14 He didnt change it,, but did he pull it and dump it? This observation is valuable.. Moreover he put 200 miles on the bike after he changed the oil. The typical filter blowout happens immediately. Something else is going on. So, maybe it's gonna live,, |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/08/20 at 13:40:15 Yikes! Sorry to hear that Bob. Odd, as others have stated, since you didn't change the filter. That blow-out is usually from a filter being in backwards. I have a parts '95 engine...if you need anything I have that is '09 compatible let me know. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Hiko on 04/08/20 at 15:23:50 A blowout like this seems as though there is a blockage somewhere on the pressure side of the oil pump and the filter cover is the weakest point to relieve that pressure You recently changed the oil Was the old oil in really bad condition? Rotella is a high detergent oil designed for diesel engines to reduce sludge buildup it may be possible that the new oil released a gob of sludge that blocked a small oil gallery somewhere. I have heard of this happening on other engines other than motorcycles Usually the small passages leading to rocker arms. My sympathies Bob |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/08/20 at 16:09:10 Thank you guys for the MANY helpful and informative replies...I am going to read them all again this evening and take notes and also record your questions and then tomorrow write a full reply. My hunch is that it is "probable" (based only on hunch :-) ) that the following may well be among the reasons (not in any order) : 1. After cleaning filter cavity and putting old filter back in, may not have seated it perfectly but I know I put in the right way and not backwards. 2. Put in too much oil?? 3. High detergent oil may have broken loose some sludge as one of you suggested. 4. Any one of several other reasons. 5. Unknown. hope the engine isn't permanently damaged...we will see. Again, thank you.. Bob |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Hiko on 04/08/20 at 16:43:03 This backwards filter thing got me curious and being in virus lockdown here in NZ i decided to check it out. I always assumed that the filter cover being damaged was due to the bolts being tightened with the filter installed wrong way around but on my bike and checking with two different filters there is still 2.5 to 2.8 mm clearance even with them installed back to front This is enough to provide full flow by pushing the filter back against the spring as one quarter of the diameter of the 10mm port provides this. I conclude then that the damage is caused by the hammering of the filter against the cover by the pulses of the oil pump. Not saying this is the case here as you are sure you installed correctly |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by jcstokes on 04/08/20 at 17:07:44 I recently took a horrible risk and changed the oil and filter myself, because of the lock down here I've only done forty odd miles, so far so good. I'm wondering if the filter cover O ring hasn't slipped out on re assembly and has some how got into the system. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/08/20 at 19:23:48 If the cover oring were missing or partially broken I would expect visible oil squirting out under pressure. In fact, that leak may relieve enough pressure to avoid the cover exploding off. Maybe? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/20 at 20:14:20 .dealerships are not immune to installing a filter bakkerds |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/09/20 at 06:01:30 Good morning guys... New day, new high hopes...Not for the "injured" bike for this 24 hours though, seeing as the needed parts on order from Ebay are not here yet, most notably replacement triangular side cover for the filter, as well as new filters, spring and new o rings for filter-related use. (Dumb question: if when I get the replacement side filter cover installed, might it be staying on the safe side to not put in a new filter initially?) If I do that and am brave/dumb enough to try to start bike that way and it runs ok, then after a few days riding, I could change the oil again and add a brand new filter. (Advice please) I addressed several or the various questions you good folks asked by individual PMs last night. Summarizing: Nothing "foreign" such as rags, etc., got into the engine. I did not replace filter with new, but did clean out the cavity and am certain I put all pieces back in properly: filter, o rings, spring. However, spring seemed a bit cockeyed and might be the culprit. It was difficult to get the filter buttoned back up. Might well be the reason, but again, I rode 200 miles over three days or so on the new T4 Rotella oil and had no problems.. When installing the filter over the little o ring, should it "stay put" by itself so that the little cover and spring can be placed over it easily? (Mine did not). As said, it was difficult to reinstall. Drained Oil was "ready" to be drained but nowhere near filthy. Conceivably the T4 oil's high detergency qualities may have broken loose some sludge as one of you suggested.... I mentioned adding new oil and rocking bike from side to side as far as I could lean it while straddling. No leaks were evident from doing that. At present the oil in the oil window is right at the top. I only added a quart and a half or so. Thus I feel certain some oil did not blow out when part of the filter side cover got blown off. The allen screws holding the oil filter cover to the engine block did not blow off or loosen at all. Just the center of the cover blew out. It was a piece 2/3 the size of the filter "circle." The drama continues.....I appreciate all the suggestions, good will and offers of assistance.... Meanwhile, my other thumper (1996) is in the shop getting new rear tire/tube installed and will be rideable once done. (I did install a new filter in the 1996 bike when I changed the oil to motorcycle specific oil a couple of months ago when I bought it. ) Best, |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by oldNslow on 04/09/20 at 06:52:15 The end of the filter with the 5/8" hole in it goes toward the crankcase over the little round spigot cast into the crankcase. The small o ring fits over that spigot between the filter and the crankcase. The side of the filter that faces the cover is closed. The spring fits in the recess on that end of the filter and presses up against the cover to keep the filter pushed onto the crankcase spigot when everything is buttoned up. If the filter is installed backwards the hole from the crankcase is blocked and oil cant flow into the center of the filter and out through the pleats into the cavity created by the cover. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/09/20 at 06:54:31 795450545954593B0 wrote:
The good news is, your engine is not ruined. However, running without the filter could do that...don't run it without a filter. It's part of the oil "system" and I'm not sure how the excess flow /pressure would react. Follow the instructions on this forum closely for installing the filter and cover. It should not be difficult. If it is, that's a red flag to stop what you are doing and check fitment of the filter and spring. You got this old timer. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/09/20 at 07:53:48 Bob, I think my old parts engine is still closed up on the oil cover. If it is, I will open it up tonight and snap some current pics for you on these parts, the order, and what NOT to do. It is super easy to get the filter swapped 180 if you turn your head away for a second. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by IslandRoad on 04/09/20 at 12:59:07 When you're checking the oil level in the little window, is the bike on the sidestand or is it upright? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/09/20 at 16:13:55 476A6E6A676A67050 wrote:
Where are you doing that ? My firnds at Gaston Motorcycle shop ??? If you go there, give Peavey a slap in the face and tell him the Injun called paaco says hi. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/09/20 at 17:12:36 More thanks to all. I hold the bike straight up when checking oil window (with telescoping mirror.) I did the filter as per the explanation just provided but as said, when putting the filter back in after wiping out the cavity, it was difficult... I had tire put on at Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki Bike dealer on Franklin Blvd in Gastonia. (MS Motorsports) Is the dealer Srinath mentioned on New Hope Rd in Gastonia? Might it be Gaston MotorWerks instead? (I don't deal with either of those two dealers, though I have nothing against them.) One day the bike will be all fixed up and running just right, but that day is not today... Many thanks, :) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/09/20 at 18:16:18 Ok...so here are all the bits inside there. Not counting the engine case, the order they go in are: (a) Little o-ring (sitting on the oil filter) goes over the engine oil port hole. (b) Oil filter with the OPEN HOLE SIDE FACING IN goes on the oil port hole snug to the little o-ring. (c) Large o-ring (goes on the oil filter cover in the obvious recess). (d) Spring (keep this on the cover when reinstalling and push the cover and spring on simultaneously). (e) Oil filter cover. Pretty simple, but very easy to get that filter in backwards. When putting on the cover, push the spring onto the cover and apply gentle pressure as you make contact with the oil filter, then wiggle it slightly while holding light pressure to make sure that the spring sits into the recess on the outward side of the oil filter. That's it! 8-) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/09/20 at 18:17:35 Engine side (with the open hole) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/09/20 at 18:18:26 Outward facing side (no hole, but recess for spring) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/09/20 at 18:22:38 Spring should be sitting in the recess like this when you push the cover on. ***Spring would be on the cover when reinstalling, just removed for this visual. If you try to cram the spring between the cover and filter while sandwiching them together it is likely you can misaligne it and not seat it properly on the cover side since you cant see up in the cover very easily. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Ed L. on 04/09/20 at 19:43:50 Doesn't the stock filter have a pressure relief type valve in it's center? I'm not sure but I think it has. It's a long shot but maybe this happened, If you ran heavy weight oil with a used filter for 200 miles which partially plugged up the filter then had the relief valve not work during a cold startup the extra pressure from the plugged filter and thick cold oil would have to go somewhere and popped the cover like a pimple. Just a thought, wish I could describe it better. Hope the engine is OK. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/10/20 at 07:21:26 4A6B5043210F0 wrote:
Everything I see has that little piece of metal welded to the center of the outer-facing side of the filter. If this wasn't meant to offer some sort of relief at a certain pressure I would think it would just be one solid stamped piece? When I have time this weekend (and need to sneak down to the shop for a beer) I will take the old one I have and see if I can hack it open and investigate. I'm curious now :-? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Dave on 04/10/20 at 09:48:36 4D6C574426080 wrote:
When mounted properly, I believe the spring allows the filter to move outwards and bypass the filter - without blowing out the aluminum cover. This sure looks like the classic explosion that happens when the filter is installed backwards......there really is no other logical explanation. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/10/20 at 09:58:35 310A0710010D16100B030E11620 wrote:
Yeah, that sorta makes more sense. Installed correctly a majority of the pressure can get through the filter and as it gets clogged with debris it can push out a little if the pressure gets too much. Backwards, there is no other relief and nearly all of the pressure is against the closed-side of the center of the filter and then, KABLAM! |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/10/20 at 10:47:56 684541454845482A0 wrote:
Gaston motorcycle shop is on new hope road by the school on the road that cuts through cramer mountain. They're a pop (Andy) and nephew (Peavey) shop. Really good, but very very old school shop and yard. Peavey just talks too much. Old fashioned junkyard - where you can go through the yard looking for parts too. I got my dirt bike FE's to slap on my cheater chopper there. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by norm92de on 04/10/20 at 16:17:22 I have just examined a new filter and it definitely has a pressure relief valve in the center. I believe its purpose is to relieve excess pressure when the oil is cold or if the filter becomes blocked. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/10/20 at 18:55:08 Ditto. Here are two close-up pics. This is the engine side. See the spring inside. I see where norm is going...but this valve pushes in from the other side. This just confuses me as I imagine oil going in the open hole and if pressure inside the filter builds up this valve would need to go the other way....but I'm no engineer either. :-? :-? :-? Does oil go the other way? If yes, then this all makes perfect sense. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/10/20 at 18:55:41 Here I am depressing the valve. This view is from the outward-facing side. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/10/20 at 19:44:38 Well Now I'm confused. That's a one way check, if I'm seeing right. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/10/20 at 20:10:27 The pressurized oil fills the filter cavity and flows into the filter through the pleated filter media. The oil flows from the outside of the filter to the inside of the filter. It flows through these pleats. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/10/20 at 20:14:52 When the oil is cold and thick, or if the filter media is very dirty/clogged, a relief valve lifts to let the oil bypass the filter media. That relief valve is located in the outer metal casing of the filter. This shows the relief valve disc (shiny metal thing that the pen is pointing to). If you gently push on that disc with a soft object, you will note that it will move inward. The internal spring holds the disc on its seat until oil pressure is sufficient to overcome the spring. Stewmills zeroed right in on it. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/10/20 at 20:20:04 After the oil passes through the filter media, or past the relief valve, it exits the filter through this hole. It then proceeds through the end of the crankshaft to lubricate the rod bearing and cylinder, and also through the channel in the engine case that directs oil to the top end and the gearbox. Note the perforated metal in the picture. That perforated metal is there to support the paper filter media so it doesn't collapse and get run through the system (a fate worse than death). :'( |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/10/20 at 20:23:09 This is why I don't use aftermarket oil filters unless they are from a quality aftermarket vendor like K&N or Wix. I really prefer the OEM filter. I know that I'm getting a filter with the internal bypass relief set to factory specs and capable of flowing the minimum specified. Note the words "Factory Tested" on the package. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/10/20 at 20:28:47 So, Bokobob, I believe you said you reused the filter that was already in the engine. If you are absolutely confident that you had the big hole in the filter facing the crankshaft, I think there is only one way the pressure could have built up to the point of blowing your filter cover to smitherines. The relief valve didn't lift. My recommendation is to get one of these and make real sure that its installed correctly, with the hole facing the crankshaft and the relief valve facing out. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/11/20 at 07:03:31 I've been using these for the last few years. I have no reference to the true quality but I haven't blown my case yet. I also change my oil VERY often as to never have a clogged filter. We have learned a lot this week 8-) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/11/20 at 08:04:50 45434C30323531010 wrote:
I was astonished to read that the oil flows FROM the outside of the filter to the inside through the pleated folds. I had thought for sure that it flowed from the inside of the filter to the outside of the filter and exited the "cavity" through a fairly small hole elsewhere in the cavity casting. So I ask, where does the incoming oil from the engine enter the filter cavity? Please note that the K&N filter that was in my bike when the side cover blew out while I was starting the engine appears to have experienced no damage whatsoever. The heavy metal side cover itself that blew out has a hole the size of a silver dollar or larger...Go figure. Seems very strange to me. :'( |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by norm92de on 04/11/20 at 14:34:38 I like the idea that whomever provides the warranty provides the filter. :) It a'int rocket science. Plus a filter is a pretty modest in vestment compared to a new engine!!! Course I may be "wrong" :'( |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/11/20 at 17:03:02 DBM is 100% correct on the oil flow (not that I didn't believe him). I went and looked at my parts engine. Look at the image. In yellow on the engine side is what I will call the oil pump outlet, and on the case is the inlet to the oil filter area. If you look at this and think about what is going on, oil has to flow this direction and it all makes sense. The oil pump outlet fits snugly into the corresponding hole in the case circled in yellow, which is of course the oil filter cavity. See the red "oil path" Oil goes into this little filter cavity under some degree of pressure, flows into the outside of the filter down through the center of the filter (now clean, filtered oil), then up into the little oil passage that eventually carries oil up to the top of the engine and (I think) to the backside of the clutch case where it spits out clean oil there too. So, if you have a gunked up filter and oil comes shooting into the oil filter cavity under pressure it has to go somewhere. :o :o :o |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Hiko on 04/11/20 at 18:53:07 Well I have learned something I assumed the oil flow was from the inside out and it is now obvious to me it goes the other way for the reasons that Mike said I have an old unknown make filter laying around here and I checked the force needed to open the relief valve on my wifes kitchen scales when she wasnt looking and it came out at 155 g or 5.4 lb It would be interesting to know what the opening force is on your filter Bob Stewmills great pic but it appears to me that the oil from the pump comes up the gallery to the left of your yellow circle and DOWN to the crankshaft where you have marked the flow up [Your lower red arrow] ? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/11/20 at 19:19:02 My red arrows might be off. I will take a peek tomorrow and get it right so I don’t lead anyone astray, and we can have an accurate reference. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:20:31 Oil from the pump discharge enters the clutch cover here (circled in red). It travels up an internal passage in the cover and enters the filter cavity. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:23:10 The oil enters the filter cavity here (circled in red). Then it surrounds the filter and passes through the paper filter media. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:25:10 Filtered oil then enters this hole where it is distributed to the crank, top end & transmission. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:29:25 There is a seal in the cover. The seal fits over the end of the crankshaft. It keeps the oil from leaking past the rotating crankshaft, which would degrade pressure and prevent lubrication from getting to the rod bearing and cylinder. This is the crankshaft supply port and the seal. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:31:52 Another internal passage in the cover directs oil from the filter up to the groove in the cover. This groove distributes oil to the top end and the transmission. Top end supply exits in this area. There is a port in the mating surface of the crankcase. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/12/20 at 00:34:10 Transmission oil exits in this area of the clutch cover groove. There is a small brass orifice in the mating surface of the crankcase that controls oil flow to the transmission. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/12/20 at 06:47:08 Thanks DBM. Saved me a trip to the shop this morning. ::) ::) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/12/20 at 07:57:32 Posts with photos by Stew and DBM are very enlightening. Thank you. Thanks also to all others.... |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/12/20 at 09:11:50 HALLELUJAH, THE THUMPER HAS RISEN..... I am delighted to report that the bike is now running again and well at that. New filter. Replacement three-sided filter cover. New O Rings. New spring. New oil. Rotella T4 Buttoned it up. Started it up with full choke and it caught nicely and I let it run for a good minute or so with full choke. Gradually I pushed in the choke and let it idle for ten minutes. I rode it around my no-traffic neighborhood for ten minutes, taking it easy, but eventually "goosed" it hard from 20 MPH to 40 MPH in second gear. Ran fine. Took it out for a short run on country roads, but had to come home after just two miles because it had started to sprinkle a little bit and so felt it wise to return home. As said I feel certain I had not put the filter in backwards but I could be wrong....After all, I am a geezer. (I do point out again that before the failure I rode the bike for 200 miles in the couple of days after I put in the new oil several days ago. ) My strong hunch is that when I started it up immediately before the failure a few days ago, I revved it up a good bit with full choke on and the oil pressure was perhaps enough to blow out the filter cover. I say that as a hunch...Whatever the exact cause was, may never be known, but I am so pleased to have it fixed. A thousand thanks and more to all of you for your comments. I am grateful to have learned so much from this thread..... Grace + Peace, |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by ohiomoto on 04/12/20 at 12:27:59 Glad you got it worked out, but never idle your bike for 10 minutes. It would be better to put it on half-choke and ride away within 30 seconds. Once it warms up the rest of the way push the choke in the rest of the way. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/12/20 at 12:41:16 Id have to dissect that old filter and see what I could find |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by norm92de on 04/12/20 at 13:08:05 I second ohiomoto. Never idle your bike any more than necessary. There is no cooling airflow and the exhaust-cylinder head gets much hotter than it should. Your engine will thank you for it. It may even send an email. :) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/12/20 at 14:25:31 Thanks for tip to not idle very long...Forgot that it is air cooled. The old filter looks perfectly fine..Not a single blemish. I'll open it up and see what is inside as suggested...(The relief valve seems to function ok. I have no way to check how much resistance it has.) It has been raining steadily all day after the brief check-out ride so I have not been able to do any more riding today... I am looking forward to taking short rides for a day or two before venturing out for longer rides. (A long ride for me is close to an hour..that is all I can handle with this old body.) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/12/20 at 19:41:58 Just a guess, but the fact that you stated that the filter cover was hard to reassemble makes me think that the filter slipped slightly off center when you replaced the cover , (crushing the spring) your ride may have shifted it as you returned home moving it just enough to block the discharge passage. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by jcstokes on 04/12/20 at 22:18:52 Since I've just done oil and filter change for the first time, do any of you techies have a sequence for replacing the cover bolts? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/13/20 at 06:50:05 7A7363647F7B7563100 wrote:
I always just hold the filter cover snug to the case with my left hand, and with my right, turn in the bolts somewhat evenly until they are all as tight as I can get with my finger tips, making sure that the cover visually looks even. I then use the allen-socket to tighten them more by hand as much as I can (just the socket, no handle), then attach the torque wrench and go around turning each maybe 1/4 turn until I reach torque. I'm probably overdoing it, but I am very careful and don't want to strip out an aluminum case bolt! I think the real key here is holding the cover snug with your hand while turning in the bolts, and not letting the cover push itself out against the bolts where it can get itself crooked. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/13/20 at 07:45:35 I second what Stew said, it might help to use a small dab of grease on the base of the spring inside the cover to hold it in place as you put in on, you should feel only the spring tension ,easily held by your one hand. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by jcstokes on 04/13/20 at 12:53:52 Thanks for that info. I did use some grease mainly to keep the oring in place. |
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Title: The Actual Cause Post by Bokobob on 04/16/20 at 12:13:30 Guys, I found a photo that I had forgotten I took on my cell that I snapped after the side of the filter cover got blown off....(The size of the blown off piece was about that of a silver dollar. The rest of the filter cover and fasteners were intact, as was the filter still in the cavity.) To my embarrassment and yet, to my relief, I saw that I had installed the filter backwards. Thus the "problem" was my own fault. Thank you for bearing with me through this drama of my own making. And again, thank you for your many suggestions and tips. I will not be going to inquire about a room in the memory care unit of a nearby nursing home. (You will one day be in your eighties too) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/16/20 at 12:41:05 While I'm sure you are not happy that it went together incorrectly, I'm sure it feels a lot better knowing it was a known mechanical issue rather than some random event. darn I hope to be in my 80's one day. :) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/16/20 at 13:41:50 This is not a heads up, but I feel certain the "old age" is not for sissies. :-) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/16/20 at 14:39:19 No harm, no foul... As Gary said, the fact it is a known versus an unknown is a blessing. You're safely riding now and that's what matters :o |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by stewmills on 04/17/20 at 07:01:17 ...and we learned something new too. You can drive 200 miles with a filter in backwards. I think we assumed the impending explosion was rather immediate, but now we know it isn't ;) See Bob...you taught us kiddos something new. 8-) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/17/20 at 12:39:52 200 miles with filter installed backwards??? That is impressive. :o |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/17/20 at 16:16:19 7E78770B090E0A3A0 wrote:
Thing is, the spring was cockeyed and I think this caused the filter to be skewed when I pushed it in and fastened the filter cover down... The 200 miles of "good" riding is impressive to me too. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Hiko on 04/18/20 at 02:32:30 Bob thats an easily made mistake and has been done by all accounts many times before. Thank you for clearing that mystery up. I learned something too that the oil flows the opposite way to what I assumed at first blush |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/18/20 at 05:16:54 032E2A2E232E23410 wrote:
Thing is, the spring was cockeyed and I think this caused the filter to be skewed when I pushed it in and fastened the filter cover down... The 200 miles of "good" riding is impressive to me too. [/quote] On this bike - as well as a few others I have opened up - a Yamaha xs650 is another one - all the bearings in the bottom end are ball bearings. They can live with splashed up oil. Your one and only pressure lubricated bearing on this bike is the cam shaft, and the xs had ball bearings there as well. For giggles you could check and see if that has a higher than the range of plastiguage/mic gap. If it was higher, something like lucas oil additive or a thicker than the 10W40 recommended may cover your extra gap for decades to come. Or better yet, you could take out the cam shaft and take it to one of those Nascar people who coat it with a moly Teflon coating. That will take up a little extra room and most importantly it takes up oil and holds it. Therefore you never have a dry start on the bike for the only bearing that cares. In all honesty, if you ran the bike in 1 continuous 200 mile ride you'd have likely killed that bearing. But if you did it over 10-20 rides, you'd not even have scratched the surface. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/18/20 at 06:26:03 Srinath, thank you for your analysis. Alas, I am totally brain dead on wrenching and thus will not be tearing into the engine to do the measurements you suggest. Nor would I rely upon my dealer's mechanic to accomplish anything like you mentioned... For your information, the 200 miles of riding with the filter installed backwards was spread across four or five rides. As long as it keeps running I am not inclined to be concerned. :) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/18/20 at 07:08:58 You didn't damage anything I'm sure. At next valve check see if you can stick your fingers through and see if the camshaft can move - I'll bet it doesn't - and that pretty much should tell you its not really bad. Run 20W50 if you prefer - it usually doesn't hurt anything anyway. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Dave on 04/18/20 at 07:23:03 2C2D36313E2B375F0 wrote:
The popular forum opinion from us old guys - is the 20W-50 is a bit too thick for the Savage (unless you are riding in 100 degree weather). The thicker oil does reduce the amount of oil flowing, and Verslagen's tests showed the engine runs hotter with 20W-50 than it does with 10W-40. Stick with the Rotella T synthetic 5W-40 that you have in the bike. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by ohiomoto on 04/19/20 at 06:19:09 I agree with Dave and I'll add, do not overthink this. You have a solid and durable bike. Ride it! Don't fix what isn't broke. I've put thousands of miles on my bike every year with very little maintenance. Mostly just brake pads and tires. It sits in the garage every winter with nothing more than a full tank of gas and starts and runs like the day it got parked. That's why I choose this bike. I wanted to spend more time riding my bike than working on it. Forums are full of great information because they are full of passionate folks who overanalyze everything. That's cool if that's what you're into, but you're too old for that crap, get on with your life and ride!!! (But stay involved here because it's still a great forum.) :) |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/20/20 at 06:23:56 62595443525E454358505D42310 wrote:
The popular forum opinion from us old guys - is the 20W-50 is a bit too thick for the Savage (unless you are riding in 100 degree weather). The thicker oil does reduce the amount of oil flowing, and Verslagen's tests showed the engine runs hotter with 20W-50 than it does with 10W-40. Stick with the Rotella T synthetic 5W-40 that you have in the bike. [/quote] Ofcourse it will run a bit hotter because oil is also the coolant, and 20w50 doesn't get on surfaces as easy as 10w40 especially cyl wall which is essentially a splash lube situation as well. I guess if it is super warm ambient temp, 20w50 will splash as well as 10w40 does in the 60's and 70's. OK that makes sense. The higher viscosity oil would retain better film strength if the one plain bearing set in the bike has had a higher clearance situation. This bike was designed for 10w40 like a lot of Suzuki's are. I'd just stay with that. BTW aircooled yamaha's are built around 20w50. I tend to go with the bike's design spec oil usually. Has anyone done a pressure check of this bike when its running - as in bolt on an oil pressure gauge and ride it. I did it with a GS500 and the pressure readings were dismal, especially at idle after fully warmed up. Try 3psi or less. A higher viscosity oil will result in a higher pressure when fully warmed up. That makes the plain cam bearings stay away from metal to metal contact and/or rattling due to higher clearance. Anyway we're far far far from 100 degree weather, its been sliding back into winter around here. I cant even believe this is the 3rd week of april. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by DragBikeMike on 04/20/20 at 13:05:33 Srinath, I have an oil pressure gage tapped into my head cover. It measures oil pressure to the top end (IMO the weakest link in our lubrication chain, sliding contact rocker pads under extreme load). I also recently installed a CHT gage that reads off the 8mm stud at the front of the head. Oil pressure on my bike varies a bunch. When cold, it exceeds the gage range (15 psi) if I try to take the rpm above 2000. After approximately 1/2 mile of operation, its down to about 15 psi at 2000 rpm. By about 1 mile of operation it stays within the gage range (0-15 psi). Once fully warmed up (CHT at 290F or higher), pressure is as follows. Idle: 0 psi Cruise: 3 psi Freeway: 6 psi WOT 5K+: 7 to 9 psi My CHT ranges from about 295F to as high as 340F. That's with ambient air temps around 75 to 85F. I have not had the opportunity to observe the CHT gage with ambient air temp above 85F. I am very curious what I will see when ambient gets above 90F. I run Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin motorcycle oil. It is evident that the temperature has a huge impact on my top end oil pressure. It is also amazing how fast the oil pressure drops when I first start warming up the engine. I prefer the heavier synthetic oil, which also has a high zinc content. I run valve springs that are a lot stiffer than the stock springs, and an aggressive camshaft with very high lift and steep ramps. The rocker arms, cam lobes, and valve tips are holding their own. I don't expect to get the same longevity as a stock setup, but the reduced life expectancy comes with the territory. BTW, 20W-50 is one of the recommended weights listed in the owners manual. Considering that when the engine is cold my idle oil pressure is as high as 15 psi and it drops to zero when fully warmed up indicates to me that the heavier oil is better for my particular setup. The 10W-40 would yield even less top end oil pressure at idle, and I don't think it would perform as well under the extreme loads that the rocker pads and cam lobes are subjected to. I am planning to do a test report that compares 10W-40 to 20W-50. Since I now have a CHT gage, oil pressure gage, and tachometer, it should be pretty easy to do a comparison with a full set of parameters. The tricky part will be ambient temp, which changes rapidly as the day wears on. I want to collect that data to prepare for an oil cooler installation. I'm not too comfy with that 340F that I see occasionally. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/20/20 at 13:27:40 On my GS all bearings were plain and it too made the numbers you're listing. Scary, but it does live for 50-100K miles. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by verslagen1 on 04/20/20 at 13:40:39 My attempt at an oil temperature test... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283117891/0 On the beast I have a temperature gage on the front oil pressure port. On a hot day it'll go to 280. And I've had a pressure gage there too. Pressure at idle ~5psi to 50psi at 5000rpm give or take a mile. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/21/20 at 07:25:26 Without comparison testing I wouldn't be to sure that a 50w oil is better that 40 w. 40w might actually show cooler temperatures and maybe higher pressures at idle when the motor is warm, . and lower pressure at the cam (thus a thicker film layer) at startup when cold, pressure and flow are inversely proportional . Verslagen's increase of 6 degrees was taken at the lower engine side case , seeing as that is the total of oil moving thru the motor , the smaller flow (50w)l of oil passing thru the head area may have been several degrees hotter. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/21/20 at 09:55:34 3C3F2A333F306A665E0 wrote:
The right way to think of this is as a long pipe with the bearings at the end as the leakage spot. Your oil pump can easily produce all the pressure in the world - because when cold the pressure runs over 20psi and when hot it barely breaks 10. Here a higher viscosity oil simply plugs the "leak" of the bearings better maintaining a higher pressure where it counts at the bearing. It conversely doesn't fly everywhere as much and doesn't adhere to the surfaces as much because its viscosity is higher. I don't quite see a huge problem with a thicker oil if the bearing is at higher side of the limit. And actually a head temp being higher may just mean oil temp is lower, I forget where the temp was measured. Higher oil temp may mean extra engine heat getting pulled out. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/22/20 at 14:03:06 higher temperature of the heavier old may mean that the flow rate of the oil is less and is slower through the head and therefore it picks up more heat per unit of time, but doesn't necessarily remove it from the head. If heavier oil is better lube and heat absorbing we should be running 90 weight :D |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/22/20 at 17:12:42 No in my post I meant - I don't know where he measured the temperature. If oil temp was higher under the same conditions that means the oil pulled more heat from the engine. That is good. If head temp was higher - it means oil didn't get as much of the heat out, or there was more heat produced from friction. Both are bad. In effect 10w40 flows and gets on stuff better and easier and faster. 20w50 stays on stuff better and longer and I really can see merits in both. However the end determination for oil as a lubricant is in the 1 location where it works nearly completely as nothing but a lubricant - the cam bearing. If its near low end of factory spec that's 10w40 territory. If its at the high end or over the spec - its 20w50 territory. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/23/20 at 08:20:25 Well we could debate this all day, but to think that the cam bearing just uses the lube is false , with temps of 3000 to 5000F depending on combustion ratio I' m sure the entire head is cooled by the oil. I will agree that if wear is present ,as in a high mileage motor that moving to a heavier oil may be necessary BUT ONLY if normal oil pressure can not be maintained. Use of 50 or even 60 grade oils over 40 grade in air cooled motors like the Savage is mute as the viscosity of these oils are the same at temperatures of 300F that the motor runs near. the Fact that 90% of wear occurs at startup make 20w50 a poorer choose when compared to 10w40 or 5w40 synthetic and may because of this cause added wear to an already worn motor . Oil pressure does not lube the cam bearings it is the flow of oil through the bearings that protect them,( the reason we don't idle the bike sitting on the side stand) and 40 grade oil will flow better and warm faster at startup. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/23/20 at 08:45:41 26253029252A707C440 wrote:
90% of wear doesn't occur at startup - That is a total misrepresentation of reality. Yes 90% of non pressure lubrication occurs at startup. But cold starts typically are where clearances are high and the parts are cold and stationary before spun up. 90% of non lubrication occurs at startup. Wear occurs at high temp and high speed where spinning parts swell from temperature, clearances reduce due to that and clearances reduce further due to centrifugal force causing the spinning parts to swell more and so on. This is why engines seize up on the road, and cars dying in the driveway typically die from electrical issues, or battery or gas flow where some obstruction freezes up and wont let it start, or rats ate the wiring etc. I however agree with the need for higher viscosity oil if you cant maintain pressure with the lower viscosity oil though. When the head is cooled by oil is considered, a higher viscosity oil would stay on the head a little longer before getting down the drain. As a coolant and cushioning agent higher viscosities are better as well. The only reason a higher viscosity oil is bad is if the pump can not build the recommended pressure with it where the pressure is needed - at the cam bearing in this case and where its splash lubricated at the cylinder wall Basically the bottom line is - if the cam bearing oil pressure is inadequate due to the clearance being higher then higher viscosity would be a remedy. Possible side effect could be less splash lubrication onto the cylinder wall. All the rest is in favor of a 20w50 over a 10w40. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by ohiomoto on 04/23/20 at 17:20:02 @Ruttly OIL WAR!!!! |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/23/20 at 17:23:50 You have a need to do some research ,you have many misconceptions, I'll leave it at that. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Dave on 04/23/20 at 18:37:58 Youzguys ran the first 60,000 miles using Valvoline VR1 in 10-40 I believe, the next 100,000 miles was using Rotella T6 in 5W-40. At the 160,000 miles rebuild the only thing that was out of spec was the valve guides and valves. The cam and rockers were fine, the piston was fine, and even the rings were still in spec. The engine went back together with new valve guides, valves and rings - all other parts were put back in and the engine just passed the 200,000 mile mark. I really don't need any other proof that 10W-40 and/or 5W-40 works just fine. Most rocker/cam failures on this bike are from using oil with low ZDDP levels (rocker failure) - or cam bearing failure caused by running too low of idle speed. The bottom end probably could care less what oil is used, as roller bearings don't really need much oil to survive. The piston is somewhat similar and the piston/cylinder failures on this bike seem happen when folks run the engine out of oil. Every now and then somebody trashes an engine when the top of the exhaust valve comes off the stem - I suspect running too big of valve clearance for too long may contribute to that failure or too lean of fuel mixture - but I really don't know for sure. I am just going to keep running Rotellat T6 that is 5w-40.....and not worry about my oil doing a proper job. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Hiko on 04/23/20 at 21:00:44 Do you know the history of the cam chain and tensioner in all those miles? |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Dave on 04/24/20 at 04:08:48 2B3D272835272B28520 wrote:
I am on my 3rd one. The last two have been Lancer Nitrided Specials. Work fine, last a long time. [/quote] |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Bokobob on 04/24/20 at 04:41:30 Good morning, Guys...Cool to see this thread turn into an "oil war" as someone remarked a few posts previously. For the most and latest on OIL, there is this site which will tell you much more than you ever would likely ask: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm I don't know how much of it relates to MCycles, but it is quite informative. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/24/20 at 06:44:56 1D262B3C2D213A3C272F223D4E0 wrote:
I have had one of those highlighted in Magenta - that bike had a broken vacuum line sucking air. Now Why did he switch to a lower viscosity oil after 60k. Also the case we are talking about is one where the cam bearings are at the high end of the spec from having run without oil pressure for a while. BTW that having too low of an idle causing damage is proof that pressure can get too low - but a higher viscosity oil isn't going to help there. A higher rpm idle would. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/24/20 at 06:54:39 Dave , you're saying that valve failure might be caused by the valve clearance being set large ,this may cause the valves to be louder, and show some added wear on the top of the stems, but that wouldn't stop them from seating which they must do to prevent overheating. I think the it might be that they're set to tight, when the motor reaches temperature the valve stems expand and clearance is lost, they either don't have enough seat time or fail to fully seat ,and overheat. Srinath, the move from 10w40 to 5w40 was made because it's viscosity is only half as thick when cold, therefore causing less wear at startup where most wear occurs, even for non-believers like yourself. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by Dave on 04/24/20 at 07:31:54 4E4D58414D4218142C0 wrote:
Thank you for your responsible divergent point of view. I have read that valve failure can occur if clearances are too large. The theory is that the cam lobe ramp lowers the valve gently onto the seat and allows a slow change in the velocity of the valve as it approaches the seat with normal valve clearances - however with excessive clearances the valve spring can push the valve onto the seat too quickly and allow excessive force......which is then transferred onto the valve stem. Can't say for sure, as I don't have any experience with this issue and I have never had a valve come apart. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by batman on 04/24/20 at 08:14:45 Dave, I see your point, the spring could make the valves bounce off seat and do damage to the seat and/ or valves . Either of our thoughts could be correct. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/24/20 at 12:00:50 On this bike - the motor which I still have BTW the left exhaust valve broke because it was run for long time with the vacuum line broken at the carb. Batman - Once again - the 5 isn't the issue - that 5 vs 10 is at cold starts and I would say yes 5 works just fine. The 40 with a loose cam bearing would be better served by 50 wt. Seriously maybe I should have posted about a 10w50 or a 5w50 (which is easily available in castrol). This argument is going nowhere because we have no way of measuring the pressure at the cam bearing. 50 will make more pressure right out of the pump. But it would lose more per length of flow before it gets to the cam bearing. Now even if it arrived at a slightly lower pressure at the cam bearing, it could protect it better. But we don't even have that information. The pressure at the cam bearing is what counts. The oil pump is well capable of 3X the pressure or more because when cold the pressures are over 20 and when hot, they barely break 10 psi. Yea 10w50 vs 10w40 would have been less confusing IMHO. I didn't do that cos 10w50 is impossible to find. And unlubricated doesn't always mean wear. It can be unlubricated and not making contact or have high temp and disappearing clearance and hence no wear is occuring. Remember the plain bearings rarely wear themselves to a larger and larger and larger to where they're loose and don't work. Does happen, but that's in 100's of 1000 miles at what I'd call design life. They die when the clearance drops below 0 due to temperature, and swelling due to centrifugal force and at one point the spinning shaft makes contact with the bearing - hot fast moving metal onto hot metal taking a chunk of it with it. Its called galling. There ends your bearing in sudden death. The millions of cold dry starts may have prolonged this by wearing the bearing smoothly and gently increasing the clearance gently to the upper limit etc etc with still many 1000's of miles left - of course you can be like me and run a motor to 300K, have a mechanic pull everything apart and go - wow, this is perfectly worn, if not for your head gasket leak, you'd have got 100K more from the crank and bearings. It was a 97 F150 truck BTW. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/24/20 at 12:12:45 7A414C5B4A465D5B4048455A290 wrote:
Thank you for your responsible divergent point of view. I have read that valve failure can occur if clearances are too large. The theory is that the cam lobe ramp lowers the valve gently onto the seat and allows a slow change in the velocity of the valve as it approaches the seat with normal valve clearances - however with excessive clearances the valve spring can push the valve onto the seat too quickly and allow excessive force......which is then transferred onto the valve stem. Can't say for sure, as I don't have any experience with this issue and I have never had a valve come apart. [/quote] Whether that Is the cause or not, it's a mechanically sound argument to explain destructive forces. A look at a cam profile shows how the closure rate slows , makes sense. |
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Title: Re: May have ruined engine. Post by srinath on 04/24/20 at 14:52:45 342B2D2A3730013101392B276C5E0 wrote:
Thank you for your responsible divergent point of view. I have read that valve failure can occur if clearances are too large. The theory is that the cam lobe ramp lowers the valve gently onto the seat and allows a slow change in the velocity of the valve as it approaches the seat with normal valve clearances - however with excessive clearances the valve spring can push the valve onto the seat too quickly and allow excessive force......which is then transferred onto the valve stem. Can't say for sure, as I don't have any experience with this issue and I have never had a valve come apart. [/quote] Whether that Is the cause or not, it's a mechanically sound argument to explain destructive forces. A look at a cam profile shows how the closure rate slows , makes sense. [/quote] You're talking about those "comma" cams ? They have an aggressive open profile, but the back side of the comma is the closing side - not more aggressive than any other cam - the close side of the cam depends on the redline/limit rpm and the spring and valve's weight etc etc to prevent valve float. Even in cases of valve float, most of the damage occours when the cam is fully open where the valve gets hit by the piston or the opposing valve (like in a GS500) Also the more likely valve to float is the intake. Its larger, heavier and the aggressive profile is more aggressive on the intake etc. If the valve just breaks off, its a heat issue with likely a lean mix to be to blame. Cool. Srinath. |
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