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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> False humility will not save the planet /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1578315569 Message started by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 04:59:29 |
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Title: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 04:59:29 A great read and worth the investment of your time. https://quillette.com/2020/01/02/false-humility-will-not-save-the-planet/ “The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind, which means that nuclear plants also produce far lower volumes of waste.” |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/06/20 at 06:16:54 Unfortunately NIMBY-ism, and BANANA-ism will not allow this to happen on US soil. I'm perfectly happy with that scenario, I don't want to buy a sheitee Tesla, or Prius or whatever the duck the libtards are - How dare you (now that that's outta the way) pushing cos they bought a bunch of stock in it, or Elon Musk has funded AOC's presidential bid etc etc. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Eegore on 01/06/20 at 06:18:54 I was under the impression that most people were aware nuclear is ideal for power but prefer solar and wind over nuclear. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 06:34:14 Most people have no idea how power gets from production to their house. They have a vague idea that it’s produce somewhere and comes in over wires but that’s the extent of it. The major energy companies are not pouring billions of dollars into wind energy and solar for a reason. They do what they do now because they can break even or make a small profit due to government subsidies. But they’re not investing their companies fortunes. They’re very well aware of the shortcomings that can’t be overcome. If wind and solar were capable of supplying energy our needs, the major companies would’ve been fighting over it like dogs and cats but they haven’t. There is a shift underway towards the realities that nuclear power must be considered for future energy needs. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/06/20 at 07:01:41 1E2C2B3A3D2C3B04283B22490 wrote:
There is a more diabolical reason why the power companies aren't fighting over wind and solar. They own the electrical grid. Now if enough people install solar panels then energy becomes abundant. The people can push their electricity into the grid when peak generation is possible, and they can draw from the grid when required. Here the electrical company can charge you a lot for the energy you use, then credit you very little for the energy you send back to the grid. As in you use 10 units, will cost you 100 a unit, you send back 100, we'll pay you 1 per unit, obviously when you're making tons of power via solar, so is everyone else in a 100 mile radius so its worthless right ... duh, its like saying 90% of the time our freeways are free and open, hence there is no traffic problem, like WTF. Worse yet, I have heard cases of PG&E stiffing people completely and writing it down when they declare bankruptcy and that was in the 90's long before en-masse solar crrappola hit the fan. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by raydawg on 01/06/20 at 07:49:46 I have a question, I asked it on another thread, got no reply..... What might be the effects, that if we find a energy source, free of fossil fuel, that the middle east finds they no longer hold power, through their holdings in that fuel source? Could they be forced to find peace? Money is power......anybody disagree? Even the best legal system in the world, supposedly ours, the USA, bows to influences, in a direct assault, upon which it is supposedly based/founded, upon.... How can we ever expect the truth of any given proceedings, when its not truly represented, and extended, to everyone? Think about this: The shortest path between two people, is the truth..... Which would mean, anything else, is just a detour.....or perhaps, eating paint chips laced, with lead..... holds such wisdom, but sadly, only to the one who has no truth, to offer..... :-/ |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Eegore on 01/06/20 at 08:29:19 Could they be forced to find peace? Would you alter your religious practice for money? A lot of the violence is based off of religion, I can't imagine Kurds or Jews will just be accepted because people are poor. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 08:34:45 5A5B4047485D41290 wrote:
There is a more diabolical reason why the power companies aren't fighting over wind and solar. They own the electrical grid. Now if enough people install solar panels then energy becomes abundant. The people can push their electricity into the grid when peak generation is possible, and they can draw from the grid when required. Here the electrical company can charge you a lot for the energy you use, then credit you very little for the energy you send back to the grid. As in you use 10 units, will cost you 100 a unit, you send back 100, we'll pay you 1 per unit, obviously when you're making tons of power via solar, so is everyone else in a 100 mile radius so its worthless right ... duh, its like saying 90% of the time our freeways are free and open, hence there is no traffic problem, like WTF. Worse yet, I have heard cases of PG&E stiffing people completely and writing it down when they declare bankruptcy and that was in the 90's long before en-masse solar crrappola hit the fan. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] I don’t think that’s the case. If that were so, wouldn’t all the phone companies have gotten together and done everything they could to kill the cell phone? They couldn’t because (for lack of a better phrase) the grassroots efforts of people demanded cell phones so the industry was forced to change. If solar and wind were really economically viable and desirable for the public, the demand would overwhelm the power companies desire not to mess with the status quo. They would have to do it just like the phone companies had to begin working with mobile technology. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 08:35:22 12011904011707600 wrote:
Aren’t we almost there or ready? |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/06/20 at 08:42:50 Nuclear is rejected,.. one because of risk of meltdown,... two because of waste disposal... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/06/20 at 09:43:20 5A4C5B465E4B465D290 wrote:
Correct, and I'll add a third problem - too many people in the backyard of the local nuclear reactor are getting hit with thyroid cancer, Far far too many. BTW I'd also say those over head powerlines they got coming out of the place - monster eyesores, and likely causing some issues as well. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 11:20:52 2F392E332B3E33285C0 wrote:
Those are solvable. We must solve them. There is no alternative. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 11:22:11 3233282F203529410 wrote:
Correct, and I'll add a third problem - too many people in the backyard of the local nuclear reactor are getting hit with thyroid cancer, Far far too many. BTW I'd also say those over head powerlines they got coming out of the place - monster eyesores, and likely causing some issues as well. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] I don’t believe that’s true. Even if it is, which I doubt, it too is solvable. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/06/20 at 13:20:47 If your solution is solvable... Why not solve wind, water, and solar?... I'm sure they can be made more efficient easier than making nuclear waste disappear...... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/20 at 14:25:03 Transmission lines are not solvable unless you have distributed generation such as solar roof panels. Solar roof panels are usually not sized to generate power in excess of the residence yearly use. But they do exceed the immediate usage. this does offset the peak needs of the power required by businesses. Thorium power plants could easily replace uranium powered ones and reduce the waste generation substantially. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/06/20 at 16:18:49 3C2A3D20382D203B4F0 wrote:
Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much. Again, key point: “The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....” |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by MnSpring on 01/06/20 at 16:57:28 No one figures the cost of taking off, then putting back on, 'Roof', panels. Unless, a roof on a house lasts longer than the panels. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by raydawg on 01/06/20 at 18:03:34 566463727564734C60736A010 wrote:
Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much. Again, key point: “The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....” [/quote] Why can't uranium/nuclear waste be made into a energy source too? I know presently its doesn't exist, but that does not mean it can't be found....look how garbage makes methane, etc... Perhaps if it is introduced to/with a different organism, say....like aborted fetuses, it can become safer, etc.....and once its spent, just goes where the dead babies go....???? :-/ :-/ |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/06/20 at 19:33:44 4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:
No, too many many many people live in apartments or under tree canopies or in permanent cloud cover, this isn't feasible without people in WFO country generating the excess and the power grids pumping it back to the apartment dwellers. Of course we could de populate NYC and kick those people to TX and repeat that over 1000 other cities and add in the Pacific NW etc and problem solved. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 04:41:02 744641505746516E425148230 wrote:
Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much. Again, key point: “The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....” [/quote] I looked up what I couldn’t quite pull out of these aging memory banks..... The maximum theoretical efficiency of a wind turbine is 59%. (Something called Betz Law) Best wind blades today are between 35-40%. When you factor in the olde law of diminishing returns (which anyone trying to get more performance out of a motorcycle is well aware of) there’s not much room for improvement. All that means is for wind energy to contribute vastly more energy is only possible through shear numbers. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/07/20 at 04:50:57 I've heard somewhere that you get enough energy from solar in 1 day than you would need in a year (not sure if it includes driving a metal box 30-80 mile or heating 2000 sqft though) except by the time you are done trying storing its 1/100th what was thrown at you. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/07/20 at 07:24:18 0B393E2F28392E113D2E375C0 wrote:
How is this calculated?... Wouldn't 100% efficiency make wind stop and the sky go black?... I call BS... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/20 at 08:26:02 7A6C7B667E6B667D090 wrote:
How is this calculated?... Wouldn't 100% efficiency make wind stop and the sky go black?... I call BS...[/quote] No, it takes into account many types of losses vs. a perfect system (i.e., friction, resistance, turbulence, etc.) No, the sky wouldn't go black unless the solar panels were in orbit. But the ground would be cool. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/07/20 at 09:22:34 http://www.ftexploring.com/wind-energy/wind-turbine-efficiency.htm Quote:
Wind is free energy... Zero cost input. Efficiency is of no consequence. The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not. Same with sun or water. Web presents a red herring... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Eegore on 01/07/20 at 09:31:53 Wind is free energy... Zero cost input. Efficiency is of no consequence. The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not. Same with sun or water. How is efficiency of no consequence? If it costs millions of dollars and tons of resources to harness that blowing wind then there is cost. For instance solar on my property would cost 64,000 to install and my electric bill is about $80 monthly, averaged per year it would take me 66 years to break even. "Free energy" and its level of "efficiency" is important when initial cost is taken into account. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/07/20 at 09:37:32 58787A726F781D0 wrote:
How much do nuclear power plants cost?... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 09:59:19 7A6C7B667E6B667D090 wrote:
Nonsense. The quote was written by someone trying to dissuade the reader. Here’s my guess at an explanation. A flame produces light, measure in lumens. So you make a candle and improve the efficiency of the flame. You put a glass around it and further improve the efficiency. Perhaps you construct mirrors to reflect the light to avoid loss which further improve efficiency. Passing a current through a certain wire of a particular material with resistance creates heat and visible light also measured in lumens. A light bulb! Change the material of the wire and you improve the efficiency. Use an inert gas in the bulb and you improve the efficiency. Change the glass or its shape and you further improve efficiency. Make an LED bulb and you improve efficiency you even further. Both the flame and a wire with current passing through it that creates visible light start off with a maximum possible efficiency. The wire with a current passing through it has a much much higher maximum possible efficiency. Where am I wrong? |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 10:01:04 3C2A3D20382D203B4F0 wrote:
How much do nuclear power plants cost?...[/quote] An enormous amount more! But as pointed out, the energy density for uranium is millions of times greater than wind. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Eegore on 01/07/20 at 10:02:48 How much do nuclear power plants cost?... A lot, the latest approved reactor in the us is 25 billion. An incremental solar power system can catch up to nuclear eventually and it will be less efficient initially. In general an apples to apples comparison is hard to do, I just find it odd to say efficiency is of no consequence or that we can somehow harness wind power with Zero cost input. Building the turbines is the cost input, and the output is considerably low in comparison to nuclear. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 10:03:04 282932353A2F335B0 wrote:
I’ve heard that too. But again, the energy loss in turning that into usable energy is huge. You can make up for that energy loss by sheer size and volume which is what the academic calculation does with the suns totsl power in a single day. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 10:07:02 Thermodynamics is a b!tch. My daughter is an engineer my nephew is an engineer my brother-in-law has a masters in physics and a highly technical job...... So Thanksgiving dinners can be fun sometimes! Thermal dynamics for dummies can be broken down this way. There are three laws. 1) You can never win the game 2) You can’t even break even 3) and you can never quit the game. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by Serowbot on 01/07/20 at 10:11:42 That,... I believe... |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/07/20 at 10:22:15 1107100D15000D16620 wrote:
Which part? I learned a lot working for a carbon fiber company. Some of the mechanical engineers, Chemical engineers and material engineers there were brilliant. If I could go back in time, I would go that route. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by srinath on 01/08/20 at 06:19:09 Wind will be as derided as gasoline by the "how dare you"'s the instant a flock of geese flies into the things and keels over dead. The problem with light bulb analogy, a regular light bulb make 1000x as much heat as it does light. LED's solve that problem to a large extent, but that still does not make a solar replacement for fossil fuel viable, it does get it closer to the feasible point though. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: False humility will not save the planet Post by WebsterMark on 01/08/20 at 06:33:00 Eagles and all kinds of birds get killed by turbines but our fair and balanced media ignores that. Spill a bucket of oil and you’ll see a oil covered seagull on front page..... Heat is loss of efficiency so correct on LED. Perhaps a better analogy is this: A 15th century Dutch windmill compared to a modern carbon fiber bladed wind turbine is the same as comparing the first lightbulb to a modern LED. The problem is the LED represents nearly the end of the highest possible efficiency. And today’s wind blades represent nearly the end of the highest possible efficiency in wind turbines. We just can’t squeeze much more efficiency out of it. |
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