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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Keep abortion legal...... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1575052212 Message started by raydawg on 11/29/19 at 10:30:12 |
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Title: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 11/29/19 at 10:30:12 It's the last line of defense...... Robert Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, said in an interview Friday that he does not believe that there's a Democrat in the 2020 field today who can prevent President Trump from winning a second term. Johnson, a lifelong Democrat who has in the past praised Trump, told CNBC that his opinion was based on facts and he did not want to make it political. "I think the president has always been in a position where it’s his to lose based on his bringing a sort of disruptive force into what would be called political norms,” he said. Johnson said it would be wise to disregard polling that shows Trump losing his grip in battleground states and said if you took a "snapshot" today the election would be Trump's to lose. In July, Johnson – the country’s first African-American billionaire – warned that the Democrats have become too liberal and said at the time that he isn’t supporting a particular 2020 candidate. “I think the economy is doing great, and it’s particularly reaching populations that heretofore had very bad problems in terms of jobs and employment and the opportunities that come with employment,” Johnson said at the time. “African-American unemployment is at its lowest level… I give the president a lot of credit for moving the economy in a positive direction that’s benefiting a large amount of Americans.” OK....let me look deep into my crystal ball... What do I see? OH LOOK....... Women are lining up. It looks to be in front of a nice building. They are holding signs. Chanting. I see a sign a sign, on this building. BET Television. Oh golly, my ball went, er....black. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 11/29/19 at 14:37:42 Since it's likely Trump will be around until 2024, he'll probably get an opportunity for couple other justices too, but as much as I'd like it to be overturned, I don't think it will be. Left up to individual states to decide? Sure, that's possible. That's somewhat happening now with states enacting restrictions. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 11/29/19 at 14:48:53 Am I that obtuse, that no one got my snark? :-[ re: abortion.....it is so draconian, with today's medical advances, and birth control, etc.... However, it does sorta tie into the disingenuous motivation of the democrat platform. It's a woman's choice, period, no men have say, however these same folk, white ones, can tell a Black man, he ain't acting in a black mans best interest..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/02/19 at 12:27:58 26352D30352333540 wrote:
Keep abortion legal. That's not snark, that's today's reality. I agree with it. But to define it properly, it should be stated as "Let Women Decide What To Do With Their Own Bodies" or "Let A Woman Choose". As to your comparison, it's not even in the same galaxie. Opinion is not the same as law. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 05:16:08 The life growing inside does not get a choice, does not have a say in the matter. At it's core, the Pro-Choice position is that the very definition of the words "human life" and the value of that life is determined by a single individual whom biology has selected as the one to develop that life. It's wrong to destroy it. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 05:48:31 477572636475625D71627B100 wrote:
Up until a fetus can sustain itself outside the womb, it's not viable, and it's not a baby. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 08:48:11 Up until a fetus can sustain itself outside the womb, it's not viable, and it's not a baby. Technology is moving that time earlier and earlier. Right now that's between 22 and 24 weeks I believe. Assuming of course you or your insurance carrier can afford it. So the definition of life is dependent upon technology and prosperity? |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 09:08:37 645651404756417E524158330 wrote:
You can look at it that way if you want. But the scenario above is in the case of premature birth. It's only right to assume that in those cases, the mother has already decided to go through the pregnancy. To be clear, I personally don't endorse late term (3rd trimester) abortions unless it's absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, and it's her choice, or the fetus is severely deformed - and again, it'd be her choice. Further, I don't "support" abortions. I support the woman's right to choose to have one. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 09:50:40 In one case, its the premature birth of a human being. In another case, at the exact same point in gestation, it's not. It's treated like am unwanted tissue, a tumor or something. To me, that's an unbridgeable paradox. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/03/19 at 09:56:16 417374656273645B77647D160 wrote:
Then don't bridge it,... it's not your bridge. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 10:20:41 I think it is. You lobby to bridge countless issues that aren't any of your personal business. What business is it of yours if I choose to own a 20 round magazine? I could take any argument you make why you believe it is in fact your business to tell me why I can't make that choice and I could use the same logic to make a stronger case why severely restricting abortion is the right thing to do. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 11:25:04 5D6F68797E6F78476B78610A0 wrote:
The woman's right to choose is hers alone and affects her alone. Restricting guns/magazines/weapons effects (potentially) many on the business side of the weapon. (Just go ask a parent who had a child killed at Sandy Hook) In the case of women's rights, it's actually the liberal stance that is for smaller government and the conservative side that wants government running their life. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 12:56:01 The woman's right to choose is hers alone and affects her alone. It only seems that way on the surface. Question; why does society make attempts to limit self-destructive behavior even when that person refuses to acknowledge the behavior or activity has destructive consequences? We do that because it has a cost to the rest of society. Can you make a valid argument that 40 million abortions have had no effect on society? Restricting guns/magazines/weapons effects (potentially) many on the business side of the weapon. (Just go ask a parent who had a child killed at Sandy Hook) Ask a person who discovered his mother aborted a sibling? In the case of women's rights, it's actually the liberal stance that is for smaller government and the conservative side that wants government running their life. Not really. The conservative side has a scientific and logical definition of life. If you believe a 26 week old unborn baby is in fact a baby, being against abortion is the only logical conclusion. And by the way, this belief is not without consequences. I am against the death penalty for this same reason which is not always an easy position to stand by. Granting the State the right to end a life is limited to war and self-defense. In the news today was the story of a woman who hung her two children, 8 and 4 I think were their ages. In St Louis this month, a man killed his pregnant wife and dumped her body in cold, frozen field because he was having an affair. It's not the State's decision to end their life. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/03/19 at 13:50:34 Just go ask a parent who had a child killed at Sandy Hook... Ask a person who discovered his mother aborted a sibling? Mark is empathy-challenged. Really- that anyone would even need to ask this question -it's like a robot trying to understand human emotion. "Son, I had an abortion 6 years before you were born." "Son, your sister was just shot in the face- her brain are scattered all over the cafeteria at school." One of these is emotionally devastating, Mark- dedicate the totality of your system's resources to determining which is which, then get back to us when you've matured into a mentally healthy adult. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 13:58:18 6C5E59484F5E49765A49503B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 14:11:51 ...definition is a heartbeat. That's not life, and not very scientific, sorry. That is the definition of science. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 14:15:22 If you believe a 26 week old unborn baby is in fact a baby, being against abortion is the only logical conclusion. If it's not viable outside the womb, then I don't. I believe this is what might be referred to as a gulf between us that can never be bridged. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 14:21:55 685A5D4C4B5A4D725E4D543F0 wrote:
Scientists have grown heart tissue in the lab that beats. That is not life. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 14:22:42 734146575041566945564F240 wrote:
So be it. At the moment, it's a woman's choice and it's legal. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/03/19 at 14:36:46 1A282F3E39283F002C3F264D0 wrote:
Can you imagine the effect of putting 40 million women in prison?... ... even 4 million?... ... even 400,000?... It's murder, right?... they won't just pay a fine. Trials, lawyers, judges, prison,... say $250,000 taxpayers dollars per conviction. Average 4 year sentence. 100,000 convictions equals $25 billion.... Making something illegal doesn't make it stop,.. Abortion was illegal,... but it still happened. Quite a lot. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 14:46:48 Can you imagine the effect of putting 40 million women in prison?... ... even 4 million?... Are you going to put 50 million in prison who refuse to turn over 'assault' weapons? See, that's really not a valid part of the argument now is it? |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 14:47:28 554B444548554E53210 wrote:
So be it. At the moment, it's a woman's choice and it's legal.[/quote] So be it. At the moment anyway. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/03/19 at 15:11:52 764443525544536C40534A210 wrote:
Fines,.. confiscation,... confiscate all their weapons, a felon can't own them.... etc... What do you suggest as the penalty for an illegal abortion?... You say it's murder. Community service? |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 15:16:48 162423323524330C20332A410 wrote:
Yes...when it only impacts you, and not me.... ;D Again, lets back up to something as basic, yet such a pillar, to what separates us, from so many other forms of governance..... free speech The moment you start putting conditions on it, you undermine its foundation...... You can justify it all you want, label this censoring, under the guise of it poses a threat, etc..... You have to be really honest, to see this as it IS..... or by default, res ipsa loquitur However.....any assaults upon this freedom, will only strengthen it, in the long run, but yes, many victims will lay ruined, by those trying to capitalize upon it for self promotions/beliefs, but any victory will be fleeting, and consuming, of true peace, because it is not sustainable without force.... If you can choose just one, which do you think will yield better overall results? 1. Trying to prove you are right. 2. Trying to find agreement. PS: Overall, a pretty good exchange guys, very little name calling, etc. :) |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 15:21:58 4B5D4A574F5A574C380 wrote:
Fines,.. confiscation,... confiscate all their weapons, a felon can't own them.... etc... What do you suggest as the penalty for an illegal abortion?... You say it's murder. Community service? [/quote] How about a better way to to not get pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what gun control is all about, preventing senseless deaths? The vast majority of abortions performed are merely for birth control, not medical conditions that threaten the pregnant woman life. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/03/19 at 15:34:39 60736B76736575120 wrote:
Is anybody against that?... Some Righty's are against Obamacare paying for it,... some employers too. They can reap what they sow... it would obviously not reduce abortions, so it seems conflicting with ideology. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 15:40:06 3E283F223A2F22394D0 wrote:
Is anybody against that?... Some Righty's are against Obamacare paying for it,... some employers too. They can reap what they sow... it would obviously not reduce abortions, so it seems conflicting with ideology.[/quote] Apparently the reduction in crime a few years ago was a direct result of abortions being legalized about 15-20 yrs prior. Having said that - I wish there would be a lot fewer abortions, and the adoption supply chain be functional and not hideously expensive. Birth rates are already very very low in the US and most of the west. No sense in killing some of the ones that are likely to be born. Like I said - supply chain of every commodity from Ass to Zebra is busted beyond repair. Any darn regulations and this and that only makes it worse. I'd blame almost every current problem on the planet ultimately on that aspect. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 15:45:38 6D7E667B7E68781F0 wrote:
Fines,.. confiscation,... confiscate all their weapons, a felon can't own them.... etc... What do you suggest as the penalty for an illegal abortion?... You say it's murder. Community service? [/quote] How about a better way to to not get pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what gun control is all about, preventing senseless deaths? The vast majority of abortions performed are merely for birth control, not medical conditions that threaten the pregnant woman life. [/quote] Thus the need for things like Planned Parenthood. Education, access to contraceptives, and yes, abortions. And again, it's not about wanting a woman to abort - it's about her right to choose to do so. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 15:47:26 6076617C64717C67130 wrote:
Is anybody against that?... Some Righty's are against Obamacare paying for it,... some employers too. They can reap what they sow... it would obviously not reduce abortions, so it seems conflicting with ideology.[/quote] Not sure what you are saying....??? But let me preface this, you will always have the extremes, either way, and they will try to win their own arguments, based upon their own beliefs, etc.... That can help shape the final agreement but again, the final outcome needs to be more in the middle, where it will impact the most.... That is the goal of a successful democracy...... Once we come to governing with such intentions, the efficiency of governing will improve as well, meaning less cost, etc.....as the energy will go where its most needed, to the majority of folk, and the fringe will have to fund their own challenges to any oppositions they might harbor/hold against such policies..... We have gotten away from a strong middle class which is the same as saying MOST legislative actions should be designed around them..... |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/03/19 at 15:56:02 "PS: Overall, a pretty good exchange guys, very little name calling, etc." This has been a trend for the past few weeks, which I am sure we can see why as this has happened before. My analysis is some are simply adhering to the logic that this forum isn't that big of a deal, and others are simply not contributing at all. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 16:06:20 That's not what it is. It's me. I have taken TT's comment to heart "be the change you wanna see". Honestly, I owe TT an apology, somewhat anyway. When I see what a true d!ckweed really looks like (Mavi) I don't want any part of it. So I'm going to type what I would say if we were really sitting down at a table and what I really do say when I'm sitting around some local bar somewhere and a political conversation comes up. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 16:17:07 6040424A5740250 wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------- Or...... It's like meeting up with a bunch of friends, co-workers, in a bar, enjoying a good, stimulating, fun conversation/exchange...... edged on by some adult beverages, in a relaxing sort of way.... listening, and sharing, both necessities required for success. And then too, you might have the "one in every crowd" who drinks too much, only listens to themselves, interrupts, and fails again to find any solutions to what riddles them. So....its up to us, who want to enjoy the fun exchange, gentle chiding, banter, and escape the reality of knowing none of us, hold the cure for cancer, hate, or world hunger, and just appreciate the moment of being....normal ;D Which IS based upon a mathematical formula of the greatest average, of the whole..... or, middle class ;) |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/03/19 at 17:01:39 I think some people are changing how they are communicating, and others are just not communicating. To me, both are factors in why we are having constructive disagreements, and not middle-school insults over someone not thinking like I do. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 17:42:01 032321293423460 wrote:
Lets hope so.....agreeing to disagree, is, after all.... agreeing ;D |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/03/19 at 21:32:53 1D2F28393E2F38072B38214A0 wrote:
It seems you've credited yourself prematurely. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/04/19 at 06:37:00 Maybe he calls people d!ckweeds to their face at the local bar? |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/04/19 at 07:54:21 7F5F5D55485F3A0 wrote:
Sincerity would suggest as much, but performance belies such coherence in reasoning- from one end of a sentence to the other, or in general sentiment. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/19 at 08:23:52 0F2F2D25382F4A0 wrote:
I've watched the dynamics over several years and I've come to the conclusion there has to be one. And when a new one arrives, the others can relax and let the new guy carry the load. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/19 at 08:30:25 3B283F3E212C2A28237C4D0 wrote:
So that's how it works... ;D |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/04/19 at 08:54:10 746770716E6365676C33020 wrote:
When deceit is piled on top of deceit, expect people of integrity to suffer digging fatigue. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/04/19 at 09:31:44 33203736292422202B74450 wrote:
I've watched the dynamics over several years and I've come to the conclusion there has to be one. And when a new one arrives, the others can relax and let the new guy carry the load.[/quote] Not at all. You guys are missing the point. I saw behavior I'm embarrassed to be associated with. I don't want to be lumped in with that. I will not interact with anyone posting comments like that. I will not post comments like that either. I will comment like I would if we were all sitting down for a drink. It took an extreme example to convict me, to show me, to open my eyes. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/19 at 09:53:11 655750414657407F534059320 wrote:
I've watched the dynamics over several years and I've come to the conclusion there has to be one. And when a new one arrives, the others can relax and let the new guy carry the load.[/quote] Not at all. You guys are missing the point. I saw behavior I'm embarrassed to be associated with. I don't want to be lumped in with that. I will not interact with anyone posting comments like that. I will not post comments like that either. I will comment like I would if we were all sitting down for a drink. It took an extreme example to convict me, to show me, to open my eyes. [/quote] Regardless of the motivation, the new guy is a heavy lifter. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/04/19 at 10:33:43 635156474051467955465F340 wrote:
Any who bother to just scroll up may read clearly that is is not true. It's just incredible. Typically, Mark protests that scrutiny is unfair, that the real fault is recognizing his behavior. Mark labels himself with his deportment. 7F4D4A5B5C4D5A65495A43280 wrote:
You can't have it both ways. From my perspective, what he'll have no part of is being held to account. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/19 at 10:52:35 516364757263744B67746D060 wrote:
This freedom of personal anonymity isn't all it's cracked up to be. We aren't the better for it. Character is defined by what we do when others aren't watching. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/04/19 at 12:15:01 None of us, not even the best among us, type what they would speak in person. All I'm saying is I will do my best going forward. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/04/19 at 12:15:18 Now.....back to abortion........ |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by T And T Garage on 12/04/19 at 12:25:42 477572636475625D71627B100 wrote:
Speak for yourself. I do. I've called more than one person an idiot (in so many words) to their face for supporting trump. To the effect of "seriously? - you support trump? I thought you were smarter than that." |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/04/19 at 16:00:55 "None of us, not even the best among us, type what they would speak in person. All I'm saying is I will do my best going forward." This is most likely content for another thread but I see no reason why this has to be a universal absolute. I can't think of an instance where I typed (spoke) in a manner that is not consistent with what I would say in person when to comes to specifically insulting people. I actually can't think of a time when I called someone anything insulting, but I am sure I have at some point. I do see a difference when in-person I would not have time to do research to appropriately answer a question accurately, so in that case yes my in-person response of "I don't have enough information at this time to provide an educated response." would be different than one where I provide a researched answer. I'd say if there's anything I do that gets on peoples nerves it's the above sentence as I do not make it a habit to formulate opinions on the spot. But as far as insulting people, I see no reason to believe 100% of the human population would insult someone in writing. I'm pretty sure there's plenty that don't. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/04/19 at 17:56:00 665453424554437C50435A310 wrote:
Please, lets "unbreak" the adoption supply chain so people will have babies and let people who want them adopt them. So Madonna and Angelina jolie doesn't have to go to Madagascar or Hamilcar or Hybridcar and buy some kids. Or bloody hell, just deport them there so we don't gotta hear about em. Seriously, we are killing babies on one side, heck paying $$$ for that, while adoption costs several 100K. I have an adopted niece. My cousin - US/India dual citizen went to India and adopted her, and claimed she gave birth there and got her back on her passport. Done, scams averted, baby home. Stupid system, broken supply chain. IMHO, abortions are far fewer than adoption requests that go unfilled. Just put those 2 together. Duh. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/04/19 at 19:52:35 My son, and his wife, adopted a baby. And guess what, my grand daughter is Black, and pops loves the heck out of her. :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* But of course folks already have their minds made up. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/04/19 at 20:05:01 Abortion politics in Virginia made national news last January when state Rep. Kathy Tran proposed a bill allowing abortion up until birth and even during labor. Thankfully her efforts failed at that time, and the legislature decided to uphold life. But the same bill is likely to resurface now that pro-abortion politicians control the Virginia state legislature and governor’s mansion. Rep. Tran’s “birthday abortion bill” contained several extreme provisions. Among them are allowing abortion in the last three months of pregnancy and the elimination of informed-consent and clinic-safety requirements. Late-term abortions could, under Tran’s bill, be performed in outpatient clinics, and pro-life measures such as ultrasound requirements and Virginia’s waiting period would be eliminated. When asked about Tran’s proposal, Gov. Ralph Northam said he supported the bill and that in the case of a failed abortion, "The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." Gov. Northam’s comments sounded like an endorsement of infanticide, and many condemned them. While most of America was horrified by their cold disregard for developing human life, Rep. Tran and Gov. Northam won the loyal support of the pro-abortion lobby. Both Rep. Tran and Gov. Northam received money from pro-abortion groups like Planned Parenthood and Emily’s List. These groups believe in a woman's right to an abortion in virtually any circumstance and generously fund pro-abortion politicians, like Tran and Northam. In fact, Emily’s List and Planned Parenthood VA were among top donors in the 2019 Virginia elections, dumping millions into state races. These groups saw an opening to elect a legislature that would advance their agenda. Come January, politicians backed by the abortion lobby will be in position to pass Tran’s “birthday abortion bill” and similar measures. But passing such a bill would constitute a massive overreach by radical politicians and, if history is any indicator, will generate considerable backlash – perhaps even on a national scale. Think of what happened after New York’s Reproductive Health Act passed, a bill also allowing abortion up until birth and paid for by tax dollars. New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who signed the extreme law in January, celebrated the occasion by ordering city workers to light up in pink area landmarks, including One World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan. [The rebuilt trade center commemorates the 2,753 men, women and children murdered on that solemn ground during the terror attacks of 9/11. That Gov. Cuomo would celebrate the death of anyone, and at the very site that evokes painful memories of immeasurable loss, is a national disgrace.] But a Marist poll taken right after the incident revealed a sudden, substantial shift away from the “pro-choice” position, indicating New York politicians’ severe overreach. Because of this double-digit shift, Americans were as likely to identify as pro-life (47 percent) as pro-choice (47 percent). The director of the Marist poll commented, “The recent legal changes to late-term abortion and the debate which followed have not gone unnoticed by the general public.” That’s not really a surprise to anyone paying attention. Marist has been tracking what Americans think about abortion for eleven straight years and each year they find that large majorities strongly object to late-term abortion. This year’s Marist Poll on American attitudes toward abortion found three in four believe abortion should be limited to, at most, the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Will pro-abortion politicians in Virginia overreach? Probably. But they can expect pro-life Virginians to make their voices heard and the rest of pro-life America to be watching -- just like they were watching New York. Because in the end, most Americans don’t want to see Virginia, or the nation in 2020, go the way of New York. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/05/19 at 09:04:03 The article from Jeanne Mancini you copy and pasted without providing reference is conveniently leaving out the part about if the mother's health is at risk in those "Birthday abortion bills" I'd like it to be more specific regarding the "women's health" portion perhaps requiring some assessment of health and risk to the mother, but that's not exactly easy to put in law. I do prefer the previous standard of "substantially and irredeemably" by three doctors, but the bottom line is Tran did little more than reduce the physician count from three to one. Also this article conveniently leaves out that no OBGYN has ever ordered an abortion during labor, that it is still illegal, and that she was answering a "what if" that has never happened. Also there is a blatant lie: ""The infant would be delivered and kept comfortable, and the family would decide about resuscitation."" This was a statement answering a question about when a woman goes into labor with a fetus that has severe deformities and may not be viable, this was answered by a pediatric neurologist who was actually talking about the ridiculous concept of abortions during labor. The article states: "in the case of a failed abortion" as if an abortion was chosen during labor which is not what the question was. Now lets see if it's reasonable for a woman with life-threatening complications to need two more doctors to review and sign off on her abortion as she is bleeding to death at 3am. The referenced article is obviously biased and very selective in how it is presenting material. Read the more obscure NY bill: https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/A21 Virginia bill: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter4/section18.2-74/ Unreferenced article: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/12/04/virginia_is_ground_zero_for_abortion_politics_in_2020_will_pro-abortion_politicians_overreach_141885.html |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/05/19 at 09:40:46 These last couple of post illustrate civility- and incivility. While much has been made on this forum recently about harsh characterization, for my part, the posting of false reports amounts to a degradation; such a lack of good faith effort is antithetical to civility. Ray, what you posted strained credulity, raised alarm of misreporting; like Eegore, I was provoked to investigate. It would be a great help to civil discourse here if similar skepticism on your part lead first to an exploration of the record before posting. When we fail to scrutinize sources, we impose that burden on everybody else. Rather than focusing on our ideas, concerns, or discussing issues of merit, our energy is sapped by contesting the record. Fatigued, the temptation to discount harshly is ever-present, patience strains to breaking, and incivility erupts. A long way of saying we'd do our conversation a favor by testing what others offer before reflecting it here. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/05/19 at 11:04:49 :-? The new bill that would create a crime called “abortion murder,” explained Ohio House Bill 413, introduced on November 18, is 723 pages long. The bill has gotten attention in part for its striking language — it creates a new felony called “abortion murder.” Under the legislation, people would be guilty of this crime if they purposely “perform or have an abortion,” and could face 15 years to life in prison. The bill also creates a crime called “aggravated abortion murder,” of which people could be found guilty if they “purposely perform an abortion while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, rape, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated robbery, robbery, aggravated burglary, burglary,” or other crimes. For aggravated abortion murder, the maximum penalty is death. The circumstances under which someone could be accused of aggravated abortion murder are somewhat unclear. “Show me the person that can perform an abortion while committing arson, and I’ll show you a person who is remarkably good at multitasking,” Imani Gandy wrote at Rewire.News. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/05/19 at 12:50:27 Eegore....... I copied it, and posted it, without any commentary....... You can read into it all you want, etc...... lots of stuff floating around out there in cyberland, buyer/user, beware.....just like the mainstream media, tweeterville, etc.... |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/05/19 at 13:14:30 2A39213C392F3F580 wrote:
You aren't accountable for everything floating around everywhere, Ray- just what YOU post. No one has time to review all the junk out there- we depend on you to use your discretion when bringing content to our attention. It's ain't the internet's fault. It ain't "the media". It ain't Twitter. What you post is on you. Eegore wasn't "reading into" your cut-n-paste content- he explored the record to reveal the quality of that content. His work should not just be dismissed out of hand as equal to anything else available. Eegore accorded you respect by considering what you posted. What you've given back is far less than that. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/05/19 at 15:20:24 "I copied it, and posted it, without any commentary......." That's nonsense and I would like to think you know that. You didn't reference the material, I had to go searching to see if you had any words of your own. The "I didnt write it, I only posted it" thing has been going on for a while here, but only after someone challenges the post. My question is when you post something without referencing the original source material, how are we supposed to know what part, if any, is commentary? Let me guess, we need to copy paste every post you make into a search engine to see if you are copying other people's work, or if you are compiling a sentence in there somewhere as commentary. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/05/19 at 15:24:19 "The new bill that would create a crime called “abortion murder,” explained" The bill also requires physicians perform a procedure that doesn't even exist. I think it's complete garbage as it's essentially unenforceable. How many women are they really going to kill over this? My guess is zero. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Serowbot on 12/05/19 at 15:28:52 0E2E2C24392E4B0 wrote:
The absurdity is palpable... |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/05/19 at 19:23:18 7462756870656873070 wrote:
Gently, please.. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/06/19 at 09:16:08 5A4C5B465E4B465D290 wrote:
I cant clearly tell where you are on this - though. I know you are pro adoption, but on abortion I cant tell. Really I want to see an open adoption market. Baby for adoption, no middle men, no lawyers, however she gives up the baby its her choice. Talk to the new parents, keep in touch, don't keep in touch etc etc Of course where's the $$$ in that, and how to have adoptive parents have a return policy guarantee etc etc. Its a baby, not some furniture you bought at IKEA and cant put together. Try to return an adopted baby and get thrown in Jail and get all your assets seized. EOM. Hey more employment opportunity. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/06/19 at 11:11:41 The problem I have with "no middle men" is the outstanding level of abuse that would go unchecked until after the abuse is reported, if it ever is. This means buying children, prostituting children, selling children. Sex offenders could adopt children, know abusers could adopt children, drug cartels etc. The system in the US is not exactly the best, but to remove any form of counseling, investigation or mitigation to abuse or poor placement in general is not in my opinion the best method. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/06/19 at 11:17:46 I suspect Srinath just wanted to use the IKEA line. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/06/19 at 11:49:03 2707050D1007620 wrote:
Really....you are a very queer one, I tell ya. Abortion WAS the reference, topic....mercy dude. Apparently you dissect every post/reply I make, and you have never noticed how I highlight in bold text that is not of my own scripting.....???? And again, you appear to give me way too much weight, doubly so, in a domain that you have shared makes no difference..... yet you want to send me "proof"...... of things you might have said, or done..... Why do you care? Its queer, dude.....I think maybe you are a facade. Are you honest with yourself? |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/06/19 at 11:54:03 022220283522470 wrote:
Yeah....everyone is a sex offender..... Every gun owner is a mass killer.... Every white person is a racist. Every man is a sexist..... etc. Great world of paranoia and fear, life must be rosy...... When are we going to promote healthy optimism, as normal....ya know, like the liitle choo choo he said, "I think I can, I think I can....I knew I could, I knew I could.....???? Living life looking over ones shoulder for a boogeyman has to be drab.... |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/06/19 at 12:47:36 45564E53564050370 wrote:
This is a hollow and dangerous equivocation. The record shows that sexual abuse of children is a common threat that must be accounted for; the incidence among fostered children is many magnitudes greater than children with biological parents; the rates of general abuse among adopted children are also higher. Moreover, the constituents of the adopted family are indicative of abuse prevalence. No, not everyone is going to rape or otherwise abuse a child- but enough people do reliably that to not take precaution would make us all party to that harm. I don't know what your motive is here, Ray, but the degree to which you are beyond your knowledge is evident. This is not an area in which we can tolerate political games. Surely not every White is a racist. Plenty of folks are, though, and will act to infringe on the free rights of their fellow citizens. Same for sexists. Same for those wielding guns. Not 'might', but will, predictably, so we take precautions, put tools in place to confront the consequences. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/06/19 at 12:50:07 FWIW, I'm very very dark brown and pretty racist if you ask - well some people here. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/06/19 at 12:52:41 21322A37322434530 wrote:
'Guy doesn't seem to care about what he writes- why should I?' That's a question you inspire often, Ray. Eventually, folks will just tune you out. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Mavigogun on 12/06/19 at 12:57:09 Nevermind, Ray- I'm completely done with you. You found the line beyond which I have no respect left. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/06/19 at 13:20:20 "Apparently you dissect every post/reply I make, and you have never noticed how I highlight in bold text that is not of my own scripting.....????" Have you ever noticed I cross reference every single post I reply to, not just yours? "And again, you appear to give me way too much weight, doubly so, in a domain that you have shared makes no difference..... yet you want to send me "proof"...... of things you might have said, or done..... Why do you care?" I'm not giving you any weight, I responded to your post. I don't know what "proof" you are talking about. If I provide information on a topic it can be verified, and I am always willing to provide the references, to anyone. I don't just say stuff to hear myself talk. My opinion is that you copied and posted an article that was highly inaccurate, then said it's not on you because you only posted it and didn't type any of it yourself. You clarified you do not reference information, but post it in bold, leaving us to go find it ourselves, which is good to know. I rarely read these so the bold isn't something I'd notice. And yet still you refuse to acknowledge that I meant very specifically personal insults when I said they are "words on a screen" or that they should make no difference. Exclusively and only personal insults with all other topics, ranges of communication or any other thing at all in the known universe being excluded. You know that I use this forum in a shop and a rehabilitation program and that in itself should be enough to show the information is useful. Personal insults are not. Only personal insults. I was very specifically addressing personal insults and everyone here except you can acknowledge that. I am sure everyone understands the "what do you care" tactic you are attempting and that it doesn't apply outside the context of personal insults. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Eegore on 12/06/19 at 13:27:25 "Yeah....everyone is a sex offender..... Every gun owner is a mass killer.... Every white person is a racist. Every man is a sexist....." I didn't say that so lets not pretend I did. As Mavigogun accurately posted, foster kids statistically are considerably more abused than ones with biological families. The little engine that could will not change that math. opening adoption up to anyone that wants a child will not change that math. I am open to any verifiable information that shows otherwise. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1556380045/2#2 |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/06/19 at 15:04:39 133331392433560 wrote:
It's a NO BRAINER to protect kids....that is the point. Its the demagoguery that is BS, and counter productive..... Like a budget reduction being reported as a cut, forcing people to eat dog food, etc Like in race baiting, conservatives all wear white sheets over their heads....when in fact, presently its being reported Trump is getting over 35% of their vote, and climbing..... If you do not understand irony, using it as a tool, then keep to your own lane of traffic, while others pass by...... OR....... if you really want to protect kids, at all cost, lets start with those in the womb. ::) |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by raydawg on 12/06/19 at 15:15:29 626E79666860687A610F0 wrote:
I'm crushed.....whoa is me. Is my life over? Weird, you'd think your optimism would be bubbling over, I mean, taking the senate, expanding the house, and beating Trump, with your dog, or sox, or whatever it was, then you can put folk who do not share your beliefs.....in internment camps, teach us to be tolerant, open minded, fair... why so dour and gloom....oh, this site, its affirming, it must really mean everything to you.....ok, I understand, you can just let me wither on the vine then.... Please remember your promise, you owe that to yourself, resist temptations....you'll be better for it. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/06/19 at 15:33:51 And we have how many abortion deaths ??? Lemme guess … 6 ???? no, more … oops my bad, maybe we should have these abortions on the border in those tent cities, so we can cry about dying babies under TRUMP. Druck, I sound like Lindsey Graham, and I hate that fool. And Adoptions would be done through CPS (child protective services) or the police or some other gubbamint entity, so they can screen for criminals, cartels, sex offenders. Duh … baby needs birth certificate and adoption papers, you would get that crap where ??? on Craigslist ? Yea, lets open an Adoption/Abortion section on craigslist. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by Trippah on 12/07/19 at 07:19:09 Herre you go - lets outlaw abortion except when keeping the fetus risks the woman's life (or rape). And then: (1) When the child is born, the mother can choose to raise the child,(right of first refusal) (2)the biological father may choose to do so, or (3) the government can take custody through child services. and the tiny caveat, if the mother chooses to raise the child, the father gets to support it until the child is 16 years old. If the mom passes the child to bi dad, she gets to help fund child for 16 years. If the state gets the child, we all fund the child for21 years. ;D OH, and since we are requiring mom to carry child, she gets paid for doing so. The state would garnish the wage of daddy for the last 3 months of the pregnancy. ;D ;D ;D Its called responsibility ye holy rollers men are menfolks :o |
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Title: Re: Keep abortion legal...... Post by srinath on 12/07/19 at 07:40:49 Gubbamint cant take care of the little pothole in front. Baby - hell Frucking no. However CPS or COPS or whatever will just check some criminal isn't adopting the baby and the baby goes to a - hopefully loving family. However I hear a lot of horrifying stories about babies being "returned" by adoptive parents. Now adoption requests outnumber the available babies by a few 100 fold. If they "return" baby, they're done - forever, and next in line comes up. Gubbamint taking baby = yea might as well keep abortion active. Cool. Srinath. |
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