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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Mexico /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1572892818 Message started by NHLycan on 11/04/19 at 10:40:17 |
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Title: Mexico Post by NHLycan on 11/04/19 at 10:40:17 Regarding the recent embarrassment of the Mexican President buy the Sinaloa Cartel- I'm an older American white guy. I was raised on movies which glorified the struggle of men against a corrupt authority. Think 'First Blood'. But obviously those movies are bloody stupid places to hang your political world view. A solitary man is more likely to be a crazy screw up than is a civil society as a whole. See Ted Kazinski. We should obey the law. And yet. They have two options in that part of Mexico; ineffectual klepto state or gangster narco state. Plato's Republic is not on the menu. The narco gangs are not 18th century political philosophers. (We know this because they don't argue about the merits of slavery. (POW!)) I don't know what sort of ideals they approach their operations with but I won't be surprised to learn that they parrot the usual freedom fighter, universal rights of man, Pueblo hero bullshit. Nor would it shock me to learn they were closer to a death cult. Doesn't matter. But should we treat them as a state? Aside from taxation collection and their own security, they don't seem to provide any of the services of a state, so probably not. But aren't they closer in operation to the India Trading Companies? They have a quasi government function. They shovel cash into the central government. There's a corporate style power structure which almost akin to a social order. So 'a little statey' you'd have to concede. And there is no way our own national security state doesn't know where all their $ accounts are. And it's not like we couldn't roll up to the bank of Belize or wherever and ask for all their cash. I doubt these financial institutions have the wherewithal to deny the USA. And we aren't doing that. So we're complicit for some reason. Therefore, they operate in a zone where they are semi sanctioned by the state. Which is horrifying. But they are NOT the government. And when they are able to dictate terms to the legitimate government, that's a problem. And not a problem to be solved exclusively by penalizing the drug users among us, I think. I'm not sure what a strickly deondic approach would suggest. If most or even a sizable minority of people's lives are better because of these organizations existing, aside from the silly rich dealers, should they continue on as is? Is there any evidence one way or another? The smart response may be regulating the piss out of them. That seems to make organizations risk averse and would tend to minimize the damage they'll do. Opiates not withstanding. But that implies a strong central state which can enforce regulations. Which brings this full circle. This narco-gangster-quasi-state can only exist where the legitimate state is too week to stop it. And once it's established, well, as they say, "Power concedes nothing..", so good luck getting rid of it. Chicken, meet my friend the egg. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by oldNslow on 11/04/19 at 19:42:28 Quote:
Mexico can't do anything about it. A power vacuum will always be filled by someone. Quote:
We are the biggest customer for the products that the cartels produce. And the destination for the cartel's human transportation industry. It would benefit both the legitimate Mexican government, as well as us, if we were actually serious about controlling Southern border. We could do that, but we won't. Money on this side of the border is big part of it of course. A lot of palms are being greased in the US directly and indirectly,by the cartels activities.A huge, taxpayer funded industry exists to handle "the war on drugs", and the revolving door of catch , detain, deport, repeat. Over and over. And there is also a huge, insane, suicidal, ideological contingent that argues against any border control at all. Who say that it is is somehow immoral to even try to keep substances, and persons, out of our country that shouldn't be here. Who subscribe to the bizarre notion that someone or, some group, who believes in personal, and national self preservation, is morally inferior to those that do not. That surviving just isn't fair, especially to those that don't. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by Mavigogun on 11/04/19 at 20:01:51 407E7F73617D7C120 wrote:
You've built a wall of prejudice between yourself and common ground with your neighbors, accepting this caricature in place of meaningful relationships and dialog. You haven't described any person I know- either they are some tiny, well hidden fringe, or a construct of imagination. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by oldNslow on 11/04/19 at 20:45:50 Quote:
So you haven't noticed practically the entire democratic party, particularly the new freshman moonbats. ;D |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by Mavigogun on 11/05/19 at 04:46:31 "And there is also a huge, insane, suicidal, ideological contingent that argues against any border control at all." This is a lie. There are no signification numbers- outside of radical Liberians -who advocate "against any border control at all." You are just making crap up. The remainder of your scree is likewise such a funhouse mirror distortion of any common advocacy as to be unrecognizable as anything real. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by WebsterMark on 11/05/19 at 05:34:21 You haven't described any person I know- I'm betting that describes you. If you're a homeowner, you're probably in an area where everyone looks pretty much the same. Depending on your age and if your skills are in demand, you probably work with people who look pretty much like you. But set all that aside, the undisputed fact is if all these Central and South American legal and illegals immigrants were gurananteed to support Republicans candidates, you'd build a wall, dig a moat and line an army up side by side across the entire boarder. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by oldNslow on 11/05/19 at 06:03:08 Coming soon to a small US border town near you: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border/index.html It's only a matter of time before this starts happening on the US side of the border. These guys don't care about borders or national sovereignty. Do you think that they are not aware that we don't either anymore? |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by T And T Garage on 11/05/19 at 06:05:42 6856575B4955543A0 wrote:
Criminals don't care about laws. Nothing new. This is scare tactic 101. However, this is also why so many seek asylum in the US - to escape these gangs and their grip on local communities. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by Mavigogun on 11/05/19 at 06:18:36 Mark has a perfect record of believing stuff he makes up, and is constantly ready to bet his credibility- a much devalued currency -on it. Houston is a metropolitan city. At our community pool, English is the least common language heard. My neighbors to the left are from Mexico, Vietnamese to the right, and Chinese across the street. I greatly value the character diversity imbues this city with. Mark can't have an actually conversation about reality, being a long time permanent resident of his own imagination. His "undisputed facts" are typically expressions of his own animus- and are intended to be disputed. His lies are just provocations. Mark, by choice, is seldom more than a petty troll. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by NHLycan on 11/05/19 at 07:05:46 Trade is complex. It touches everything. It needs to be regulated and taxed. This is also true of industry. I certainly grok not wanting things like coal mines to exist. And if people don't want a paint factory near their water supply, that makes sense. Same with boats leaking oil into our estuaries. So I get borders. Borders are needed. But there's an element around borders which really does bring out the chimpanzee in some people. When they express their thoughts it brings to mind nothing so much as monkeys flinging poo pellets at each other across a stream. I'm sometimes left with the unfortunate conclusion that whatever after the fact rationale is proffered, their real driver for wanting borders originated in a very primitive part of the brain that regulates fear and othering. It's not enough for them that we prosper. The people on the other side of the borders need to suffer. We've got a handful of common expressions which convey the illogic of this view. "Cutting off your nose to spite your face", "Zero sum game". This is the place where the difference between patriotism and xenophobia become clearest. It's not love of country so much as fear of everyone else. This is one of those cognitively hardwired errors which we'll be dealing with for the foreseeable future. And that's exhausting. The worst part of it though is how predictably easy it makes manipulating some people. The last 10 years have been a master class is watching otherwise fat and happy people get spun up about minorities and the under class. Look at Brexit. The fricking Brits who at this point are the most ethnically mixed people on the planet are screaming about Europeans stealing their jobs. It's madness. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by WebsterMark on 11/05/19 at 08:32:14 Mark has a perfect record of believing stuff he makes up, and is constantly ready to bet his credibility- a much devalued currency -on it. Bet me. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by Mavigogun on 11/05/19 at 09:00:15 767074415B5956380 wrote:
Fresh reporting on Boris Johnson suppressing the UK report on Russia actively fomenting the Brexit push. Predictable manipulation indeed. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/19 at 10:23:19 TT says Criminals don't care about laws. Nothing new. CORRECT! And THAT'S why banning any or all guns will NEVER succeed. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by T And T Garage on 11/05/19 at 11:19:21 607F797E63645565556D7F73380A0 wrote:
Aaaand let's make it about guns.... The point of my post was to address old's "These guys don't care about borders or national sovereignty". No, criminals don't listen to rules and banning a certain gun won't stop all gun crimes. But, just like those guns, if you take away or limit the the opportunity to the criminal, you put another barrier in the way of the bad guy. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/19 at 16:25:47 No. Criminals won't care about the law. Only law abiding people will lose their gun to the government.. Because It's the Law.. Pretend otherwise,, |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by T And T Garage on 11/06/19 at 11:13:35 657A7C7B6661506050687A763D0F0 wrote:
No one on here has ever said the US should "ban all guns". Where do criminals get their guns? Directly or indirectly through legal channels. Further, the mass shootings that I have mentioned on this forum are nearly all done by legal gun owners. Had they not had access to those guns, the carnage might not have been as bad. These are the salient points. No one is proposing a ban on all guns - at least in this forum. |
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Title: Re: Mexico Post by Mavigogun on 11/06/19 at 11:37:06 NHLycan, creator of this thread, wrote some considered and insightful things about Mexico and the US dynamic. Instead of speaking to that topic or his ideas, y'all are talking about US firearm politics. This is like somebody seeking discussion about a carb problem, while a couple posters attempt to draw participants into a mineral vs synthetic oil fight. |
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