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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1572422474 Message started by irritatedmongo on 10/30/19 at 01:01:14 |
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Title: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by irritatedmongo on 10/30/19 at 01:01:14 Hello All: Any recommendations for cold weather engine warm up time? 2017 Boulevard S40. I work afternoons/nights. Rode home in 40 to 38 deg. F. I let the engine idle ~2 minutes after start but notice engine is a bit balky when I first shift into gear. She doesn't stall but I can feel intermittent hesitation (skipping sort of). Running like a top once I get home. I'm guessing more warm up time is needed. Read my OM but found no specific recommendations. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Dave on 10/30/19 at 03:30:05 The engine has a carb.....not fuel injection. The carb has no ability to adjust for cold weather......the fuel enrichment knob is your friend. Start the bike with the knob pulled out if needed, then after a 30 second to 1 minute warmup - ride off slowly and let the bike warm up gently. Push the choke in when you can - but leave it out a notch or two if that is what is required for the bike to run well. Push it in when you can. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 10/30/19 at 08:47:49 If your bike is stock it may help to do the spacer mod . |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by ohiomoto on 10/30/19 at 11:06:10 716A6A716C796C7D7C7577767F77180 wrote:
Which is why you don't listen to batman in this case. You should only change jetting for performance reasons. Not because your bike doesn't run well before it reaches full operating temperature. If it's underperforming after it's fully warmed up and you always ride in cold weather, then it's worth considering, but you said it runs like a top once you get home. What dave said is correct. Proper use of the enrichment knob, aka "choke" is all that is needed. Full choke to get it started. Let it run for a few seconds, push the choke in halfway, pop it in gear and go. No reason to let it sit there for minutes. It's not going to warm up as fast as if you ride it and you could potentially do more harm than good if you leave it idling on the kickstand. I use my bike for commuting and often ride in similar temps as you. My bike takes a few miles to warm up enough to push the choke in completely when it's below 40 degrees. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 10/30/19 at 21:51:36 It seems that Ohiomoto shows a certain lack of reading comprehension ,I did not recommend changing any jets . He believes that the factory knows the perfect set up for the carb ,stock. While most of us realize that the carb was tuned lean to pass clean air standards. His lack of comprehension also missed your statement , "She doesn't stall but I can feel intermittent hesitation (skipping sort of)." We term this mid range surge , it occurs between throttle openings of 1/4 and 3/4 where the fuel is controlled by the needle jet, it is a lean condition where the bike seems not to hold a steady speed , and is cured by doing the spacer mod , that lifts the jet needle slightly higher allowing a bit more fuel into the carb at particile throttle settings ,where your motor spends most of it's time. If you do it you'll find the bike runs "like a top" from the time you can push in the choke ,all the rest of the way home, long before you arrive . (the carb screws are JIS -Japanese industrial standard - Philips head- are to pointed, and will not fit down into the JIS screw heads all the way) be carful not to strip the heads of the tiny brass screws when removing the plate over the jet needle. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Eegore on 11/01/19 at 05:58:08 I fire mine up in cold weather all winter in CO. Use the choke and let the fuel mixture do it's thing, idling 2 minutes or 10 minutes don't make much of a difference for my bikes. Riding is the most efficient way to warm it up, idling for two minutes isn't anywhere near as efficient and is not recommended for our bikes anyway as it can do damage. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Armen on 11/01/19 at 06:15:31 A few things to consider: The bikes have pretty meager oil pressure at idle. Some cam/rocker wear has been traced to having the bike idle on the side stand. While cold/thick oil will have higher pressure than hot/thin oil there is the problem of the oil not wanting to go through the very thin passageways when it is like glue. On an air cooled motor, letting it idle for a long while makes of localized overheating. In no time at all, the head pipe will be glowing red and the intake side will still be cold. GM did studies a million years ago and determined than taking off as soon as possible under a light load was the best way to warm up a motor. When you use the choke, you are dumping a bunch more raw fuel into the motor. This carbons up the top end. Not good. It also washes down the cylinder walls as gas goes past the rings. Not good. As was noted, the low and mid-range leanness is most obvious when the bike is cold. I've done the mixture screw and shim the needle on countless bikes. They all were happier, and some even got better gas mileage as the choke could be shut off earlier. So, twiddle the carb, start on choke, run for maybe 30 seconds and take off under a light load. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/19 at 07:24:42 It's been my understanding that multigrade oils flow at low temperatures easier than once they are warm. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/01/19 at 07:36:24 On my bikes with a carb... Step 1: Start Step 2: Blip Throttle to my liking Step 3: Ride Step 4: Remove choke/enricher once past a walking pace Step 5: Engine is warm when throttle response is normal On my FI bikes... Step 1: Start Step 2: Blip Throttle to my liking Step 3: Ride |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Dave on 11/01/19 at 08:49:16 342B2D2A3730013101392B276C5E0 wrote:
That is not accurate. All oils thicken when they are cold....and get thinner as they warm up. No oil thickens as it gets warm (or hot). A hot 30 oil will be thinner than a hot 40 weight oil......and a both will be thinner than a hot 50 weight oil. The 20/30/40/50 viscosity number is measured at the boiling point of water (100 degrees centigrade or 0 celsius). The winter cold weather "W" rating of a multigrade oil is tested at 0 degrees centigrade (-17.8 degrees celsisus). An oil that has a 5W rating will flow easier cold than one that is rated 10W.....and 15W and 20W are a bit thicker yet and a bit harder to flow at cold temperatures. The additives in a multi-grade oil can do one or both of the following: 1) For cold weather - the additives can help to prevent an oil from thickening excessively when they are cold. 2) For hot weather - the additives can help prevent the oil from thinning. (The additives do not make the oil thicker). To make this even more confusing - the winter "W" rating is also not a pure viscosity measurement, and it also includes a test to see how much resistance the oil provides when a shaft is turned and the the force measured......some additives reduce the turning force required in cold weather. (The W rating not only has parameters for flow - but also for resistance to turning in a plain bearing). The bottom line is that cold oil resists flow more than warm or hot oil does, and you should use an oil with a 'W" rating that is appropriate for the weather you ride in .......as well as the warm temperatures. This time of year our weather can be in the 20's in the morning when you go to work - and in the 70's when you come home.....this is the kind of environment that Multi-Grade oils were made for. https://www.lubricants.total.com/consumers/maintenancetips/Oil-viscosity-and-oil-grades https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/home/motor-oil-and-fluids/engine-oils/motor-engine-oil-viscosity-grades.html In the following link you will see that the viscosity of all the listed oils thin as they warm up. https://wiki.anton-paar.com/us-en/engine-oil/ |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 11/01/19 at 15:10:48 I agree with everything Dave said ,the only thing I'd add is the fact that NO oil can protect your motor fully when you have very cold temperatures , all oil is really to thick. The statement that most engine wear occurs at startup is true , However synthetic oils don't thicken as much as dino based oils when cold l , and should come to operating temperature a bit faster. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by irritatedmongo on 11/01/19 at 15:29:18 Wow! Thank you all for the informative replies! Fiddling the choke a little more than I was before is doing the trick. Right now it gets about 40ish at night around here so it's pretty mild. But I've found the smooth spot now for the choke when I first run her when I'm leaving work. A tad embarrassed as I'm also a flight instructor with experience adjusting the mixture control on carbureted airplane engines. :-/ But this is my first bike. Initial service coming up next week so I'll also inquire about the oil grade. Not sure exactly what's in it now, I bought it new. I'll avoid "overwarming" her though. Thanks for the great info! Love this bike, just right for my current needs. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Dave on 11/01/19 at 17:25:33 My vote for what oil to use..........is Rotella T6, 5W-40 synthetic oil. It will work just fine in your bike, winter and summer. Don't let the dealer talk you into their brand name Suzuki oil, it is fine for their "new" machines - but not for the primitive Savage engine. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/19 at 18:15:50 5w30 vs 10w30 - Differences in Engine Oil Viscosity - Axle ... https://axleadvisor.com/5w30-vs-10w30 That means a 10w30 oil takes 10 seconds to flow through the tube when cold, and 30 seconds when hot. Normally, fluids thin as they warm up and thicken as they cool, but these oils have additives that cause the opposite to happen. Personally, I'm not concerned. I'm a Texan. I'm not riding in cold enough temperatures to keep my 15/40 from doing what I need. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 11/02/19 at 00:00:29 Jog ,does that with mean 0w30 you won't even have warm the bike or use the choke , just ride off at full throttle? You need to do a bit of research, those numbers have nothing to do with time. 0w30 syn . or 10 w30 dino oil ,both have the same viscosity at full temperature , when cold (75 degree outside temp, -Texas morning?) 10w30 dino might have a viscosity of 100 , while the viscosity of 0w30 maybe 40 . |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Dave on 11/02/19 at 03:33:46 756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:
Jog: That is not how the 10 viscosity is measured.....or how the 30 is measured. No oil becomes thicker when warm - all oils become thinner as they warm up. Look at these charts for the mulit-grade oils - it shows that all oils thin as the oil warms up. https://wiki.anton-paar.com/us-en/engine-oil/ The "Multi-Grade" ratings come from taking measurements of the oil, and assigning numbers that correspond to the way a "straight weight"oil would behave at that temperature. If an oil has a 5W rating, then it means that the Multi-Grade oil has the same characteristics that an SAE straight 5 weight oil would have at that same temperature (0 degrees centigrade, 32 F). The Multi-Grade oil is then tested at 100 degrees centigrade (212 F), and the oil is assigned a value that corresponds to the characteristics of a straight weight SAE oil at that same temperature. Mulit-Grade oils don't get thicker as they heat up - they just don't thin out as much as a straight weight oil would. If you doubt this and need proof - think about what happens when you change oil in a cold engine vs. a hot engine. If you take out the drain plug when the engine is cold, the draining oil comes out a bit syrupy and drops pretty much vertical into the drain pan - but if you change the oil in a hot engine the oil shoots out the drain plug and you have to catch it about a foot away from the drain hole! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb6CX_rWoIA And if you want to make it even more confusing......the testing done at 100C and 0C for viscosity is not even done the same. Look at information in the table shown below. The top table shows what the viscosity is for oils at 100C - and a 40 weight oil has a kinematic viscosity of 12.5-16 mm/sec squared - that is obtained by flowing the oil through and orifice and comparing the flow rate and matching it with the flow volume of a straight weight oil.....in this case the oil flow at the same rate as an SAE 40 weight oil would at 100C. The cold weather characteristics of a Multi-Grade oil are obtained by using the oil in a simulated engine (bearing and shaft), and measuring the resistance to turning the shaft - and also pumping the oil through an orifice to determine the resistance to flow at 0C. These values are then compared to how a straight weight SAE oil behaves at 0C, and assigning a matching "W" rating to the oil. If you look at the second chart you will see both a cranking and pumping viscosity is listed. https://wiki.anton-paar.com/us-en/sae-viscosity-grades/ It is unfortunate that so many people describe the oil as "thickening" when it warms - the truth is that all oils thin as they warm and thicken as they cool. The Multi-Grade oils just don't thin as much as a straight weight SAE oil......and at the elevated temperatures they behave like an oil with a higher viscosity (but the oil has not become thicker). And if you still aren't a believer - buy 2 quarts of that magical thickening oil and put one quart in the freezer and one quart in a pot of boiling water.......then remove the caps and see which one pours faster. I will bet you a 6 pack of PBR that the hot oil pours faster than the cold oil. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/19 at 06:06:03 The Multi-Grade oils just don't thin as much as a straight weight SAE oil......and at the elevated temperatures they behave like an oil with a higher viscosity (but the oil has not become thicker). Finally, something I understand. And I spent all that time reading about the Magic Molecule that opened up at higher temperatures,, and shrunk when cold.. I worked hard to overcome the natural tendency to know Cold liquids are not gonna flow like hot ones.. Honey, molasses, oil... Thanks for your patience and explanation. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 11/02/19 at 09:26:08 pressure X volume , Divided by temperature is a standard thermodynamic equation . this means that if the temperature remains the same ,and increase in pressure must show a decrease in volume(flow). That's why 10w 40 oil is used in our bikes rather than 20w 50 and does a better job. 20w oil will be thicker on cold startup and cause more wear . 50 grade oil will have higher pressure ,but decreased flow do to the oil passages being of fixed size. the moving parts like our flat rockers and cam lobes don't touch only because of the layer of oil that passes between them, the thicker the layer the the better. oil pressure if high enough ,is less important than flow . 10 w40 will provide a thicker layer between parts and the higher flow rate will carry away more heat ,it's other job, and important in our air cooled motors .Bottom line thinking that a 20w50 oil will protect your motor better than 10w40 the factory recommend is a mistake . As Dave said Rotella T6 5w40 is one of the best oils you can use in your bike . Decreased wear at cold startup and increased protection when warm as compared to a50 weight oil which will show an increase in your oil temperature . A 5w30 oil can be used down to -20F but only as high as 88F .(Alaska?). |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by Gary in NJ on 11/03/19 at 04:03:46 Holy crap, look what happened....this became an oil debate. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/19 at 05:35:09 Yeah, these people will go Oil School on ya in a second.. |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 11/03/19 at 06:49:01 Well it is a complex subject , and being a fun guy , lets look at another twist into the works. Viscosity is tested at 32F and 212F so it applies mostly to water cooled motors , Oil thins as it temperature rises . What is the viscosity of the oil in your bike that runs between 270 -300F ? ;D ( 10 at 212F, it's about 3.7 at 300F) |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by ohiomoto on 11/04/19 at 06:48:54 61650559465D585A56330 wrote:
LOL Hasn't been a good'ol OIL WAR in a while. :) |
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Title: Re: Engine Warm Up (Cold Weather) Post by batman on 11/05/19 at 09:15:28 Maybe you should look at it not as an oil war or debate ,but as an education. |
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