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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> The earth is flat /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1560313154 Message started by hotrod on 06/11/19 at 21:19:14 |
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Title: The earth is flat Post by hotrod on 06/11/19 at 21:19:14 All my life I have been told that most engine wear happens at start up. I don't believe that. Every engine part still has a light film of oil on the surface from the last time it was operating. The oil pump puts everything under pressure very quickly at a time when the engine is under no load and the clearance between parts is greatest. Starting a cold engine on a highway ramp and hitting 65 mph immediately would be a bad move, but other than that all is well. Flow is a response to pumping pressure. It is not a passive movement. I believe most engine wear is due to time run, heat, and load. At this time, I must acknowledge that I could be 100% wrong. ::) |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by MMRanch on 06/11/19 at 22:06:49 Rotell T-6 w/1/2 can STP , don't drain off after engine shut-down . strait oil is another matter . |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by Ruttly on 06/11/19 at 22:08:21 Define "flat". |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by LANCER on 06/12/19 at 02:52:51 Define "flat". FLAT: No bumps on her chest. [ch128527] |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by Dave on 06/12/19 at 04:26:19 This "belief" has likely been passed down the generations.....I don't know that any recent testing confirms that it is still true - or why the wear occurs. Is it a lack of oil pressure, the poor clearances in a cold engine, or the unburned fuel/moisture causing issues? Back in the old days before fuel injection, most engines were worn out at 100,000 miles. It was common to see cars and trucks on the road with blue smoke coming out the tailpipe. It was rare to see a motorcycle with high engine mileage that hadn't had a rebuild or two. Rings would wear and get too big of end gaps, cylinders would wear and get ridges at the top, valve guides would get worn....sometimes the rod bearings would wear out on the top or bottom and you would get a rod knock. Something has changed drastically, as even economy cars can reach 200,000 miles or more and still run fine (if the body holds up). My wife's last 3 cars had more than 250,000 miles on them when they were replaced - they still ran fine but she travels alone a lot and didn't want car more than 10 years old and she replaced them. My Pontiac Vibe has 160,000 miles and still runs like new, a fellow at work has more than 300,000 miles on his little Toyota...and another lady I know has more than 350,000 miles on her Toyota 4Runner. There is a Honda ST1100 in the UK that got more than 350,000 miles on the engine, and it is not uncommon for the large touring bikes to get 100,000 miles without any engine work being done.....and Youzguyz got 160,000 miles out of a Savage engine using Valvoline and Rotella. I think fuel injection is a big part of this extended life. Back when engines had manual or automatic chokes - the fuel mixture was likely too rich for too long after the start up, and the extra fuel likely contributed to the piston ring and cylinder wear....maybe to the valve guide wear as well. Fuel injection limits the fuel right from the first start and never allows there to be "too much" fuel.....so the oil stays where it needs to be and is not washed away by the excess fuel. I also believe engine design has improved and materials have gotten better. And finally....I believe modern oils are far better than was available 40 years ago - even the dino oils. If we use a "top shelf" oil in our vehicles, use a viscosity rating that the manufacturer specifies, and change the oil and filter regularly - it is very likely that none of us will ever wear out a healthy engine. In the Savage we need to use an oil with a good amount of ZDDP, we need to keep the idle speed up to provide oil flow, and we need to avoid idling the bike on the sidestand. So if "most" of the engine wear occurs at "start up".....I believe the amount of wear is pretty minimal based on the life span of current engines and we really don't need to worry about it (there is nothing you can do about it anyhow). "70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of people that produce false statistics 54% of the time they produce them". |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by Serowbot on 06/12/19 at 10:34:09 My world is on the bumpy side... :-? |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by norm92de on 06/12/19 at 12:08:36 Based on my observations it is definitely flat, however, I have it on good authority that it is a sphere Take your pick :) |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by engineer on 06/12/19 at 18:28:59 Dave makes a lot of good points about how engine wear has improved in recent years. Another factor is that machine tools are much more accurate than they once were and have made it possible to produce engines and transmissions with tightly held tolerances that are very consistent. The new engines start out with uniform fit and clearances and that helps to reduce initial wear. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by eau de sauvage on 06/12/19 at 19:09:48 If the Earth were flat, say for example it was a cube, which is not possible because the corners could not support the weight of the rock and it would crush into a sphere. So lets say that it's a cube made of a material that will not compress. OK so you have this huge flat plain, but what would it be like to walk to the edge, could you fall off? No, it would not be possible to walk to the edge any more that you could walk up the outside of a building. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by DieselBob on 06/12/19 at 19:33:40 - Dave, I support you overall argument. Your points are well made. That said, I would note that my beloved air cooled Pratt & Whitney R1340 radial aircraft engine was last produced in 1959 and still powering many a crop duster to this date, due in large part to development of the pre-oiler. And then your quote regarding statistics was certainly pirated directly from Todd Snider's famous "Statistician's Blues". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUK6zjtUj00 But, wait until you've had at least one more drink before subjecting yourself to his even more memorable "Double Wide Blues". I"m just impressed with the range of your musical tastes Dave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2JVKRH9du0&list=RDE2JVKRH9du0&start_radio=1&t=0 |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by batman on 06/12/19 at 19:44:26 Hotrod , you are wron... wron ,mistaken! flow is a response to pressure that's true. but they are inversely proportional , if pressure did it for your motor we'd all be running 90 weight oil. The flow of oil thru your motor is what lubricates it ,and carries away heat (really important in an air cooled motor) you need only enough pressure to circulate the oil,( about 10 psi per 1000 rpm) no more no less . Heavier oils will have more pressure , because of their resistance to flow. their flow being less puts a thinner layer of oil between the moving parts and bearings , and less flow carries away less heat. that is why 20w50 will make your bike run hotter than the 10w 40 on a warm day. Oil stays on all the moving parts ? that maybe true ,but only to a point , don't tell that to LANCER who fired up his bike with the high compression piston one spring and had to rebuild the top end. given enough time the oil will drain off. (zddp may help) I earlier stated that 80 percent of wear occurs at startup that was false , it's 90 percent . My statement that NO oil protects the motor at startup is true, the viscosity(thickness)of oil at 75 degrees can be 25 times it's viscosity at operating temperature ,and reving the motor at startup is bad because it increases the pressure and that decreases the flow when it's needed most . If most of the wear on my bike was riding it I be afraid to . On second thought your wromg :) |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by hotrod on 06/12/19 at 20:33:21 batman, OK so maybe I'm wrong. Next thing you'll be telling me is the earth really isn't flat. How can I be wrong twice in a row ? :o ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by MMRanch on 06/12/19 at 21:03:47 :) Well , I learned ... I need to use 10-40 NOT 20-50 in hot weather ? :-? but I'm still adding 1/2 can of STP and a little ZDDP to a 1/2 gallon of T-6 . |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by badwolf on 06/12/19 at 21:17:43 I contacted the STP folks and they said it is NOT recomended for use in wet clutches. STP = great for engines, BAD for wet clutches. Have you been using it? Any clutch slipping? |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by MMRanch on 06/12/19 at 21:45:53 When my clutch started slipping (40,000 miles - ish) I thought the fiber plates were worn ... So I got a new set of fiber plates and new springs to go with them. It didn't solve the problem... Further investigation showed that the aluminum back plate in the clutch pack had wore so much that no matter how much the springs pushed the guts of the basket together --- there wasn't enough stuffing inside the basket to be pinched. The fiber plates are about .120" and the metal plates are about .060" . So , I added another metal plate to the backside of the clutch pack. now its as good or better than a brand new bike . And yes I still use STP all the time. Be advised : the push rod length might need adjusting to a longer length because the pack is now thicker. ;) Mine was still with-in the adjustment length but yours may vary ??? |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by Dave on 06/13/19 at 03:24:43 (They have proven that the earth is nearly round - it is just a bit flatter at the poles and a bit wider at the equator). https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-is-not-round/ 7271647D717E2428100 wrote:
Do you have any kind of recent research or data to back this statement up? Something from somebody with the tools and equipment to support this legend? 6261746D616E3438000 wrote:
You have repeated this several times on the forum, and I did an internet search to find out where this "belief" come from. The only references I could find was for folks working on V-8 engines used in cars. That 10 psi might be the ticket for an engine with hydraulic lifters and plain bearings - but I still don't believe it is applicable to a single cylinder engine with roller and ball bearings. From what little measuring I can see has been done on the Savage engine......it doesn't provide anywhere near the kind of pressures you are quoting. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1118629 |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by batman on 06/13/19 at 07:48:27 Dave your correct ,I did found this pressure as it related to race track cars not our motorcycle , but what pressure does are bike put out? If in fact it is much less ,that would still enforce that the flow of oil is much more important than pressure . A study of thermodynamics and fluid flow , includes the formula : P x V ------------- T Pressure x volume(flow) divided by temperature. If the temp. remains the same ,but a thicker oil is used 20w50 instead of 10w40 , the pressure increases ,and therefore the volume/flow must decrease to balance the equation. this shows that pressure and flow are if fact inversely proportional. It would be better to say that MOST wear occurs at startup ,I don't have definitive proof of it's percentage , however it would be more accurate to say to say oil gets thicker as it cools , rather than think it gets thicker as it warms. when you see the label on oil it is very misleading , 10w40 does not mean the oil has a viscosity of 40 at operating temperature , 40 is the grade weight of oil that the oil is based on. Oil does get thicker as it cools and that IS the problem. the actual viscosity of your oil at running temp is about 10 to 14 . the viscosity of the oil at 75 degrees can be about 250+ for a straight 40 wt.,100 for 10w40 , and about 40 for a for a synthetic 10w 40 , none of these cold will properly lube the motor , and is why I stated that so, and why I stated that 5w40 Rotella will warn faster and produce the least wear at startup ,but at a viscosity of 40 it is still 4 times to thick to prevent wear until it reaches temperature. the site I used for this info and a good read on many other subjects Suzukitechnical P.S. credit to JOG who found this site a long while ago. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by Dave on 06/13/19 at 08:07:26 7F7C69707C7329251D0 wrote:
All oil is thick when it is cold....and thins when it gets warm....and thinner when it is hot. The viscosity ratings of oil are tested 100 degrees centigrade for the upper rating. The oils are heated and then allowed to flow through an orifice....the rate for flow is established using straight grade oils (SAE 20, 30, 40, 50, etc). A multi viscosity oil that is rated at 40 flows through the orifice at the same rate the straight weight oil does at that temperature. This means that at 100 degrees temperature....an SAE 40 oil and a 15W-40 flow at the same rate. The cold weather rating at 0 degrees Centigrade is not so easily defined, as it is a combination of tests. Not only do they test the flow rate of the multi grade oil and compare it to the flow rate of the straight weight oil - but they also compare the oil resistance to shear. https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/sae-viscosity-grades/ https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/viscosity-index/ 57544158545B010D350 wrote:
The viscosity of an oil at operating temperature is approximated by the upper number of the multi viscosity rating at 100 degrees centigrade - which is 212 degrees......what they consider as an operating temperature for water cooled engines. To say that a 40 weight oil at 100 degrees has a viscosity of 10-14 at this temperature is misleading - as you have not stated what temperature the 10-14 weight oil is at (I understand you are implying the 40 weight oil is thin when hot....I get that). However the engines are designed to run with the engine oil being thin when hot. I also understand that oil is thick when cold, and it does not flow was well when cold. However the difference in thickness between a 5W, 10W, 15W and 20W oil is not significant at summer temperatures, and really isn't a contributing factor in which motor oil to buy for summer use......however some folks argue that more additives are used to lower the winter use rating, and those additives take up space that would normally be occupied by oil molecules - thereby reducing the lubricating value of the oil (Theory is a 15W-40 oil will have more oil and less additive than a 5W oil and provide better lubrication). So that is how I feel and what my beliefs are based on - I am using Rotella a T4 15W-40 in my tractor, and T6 5W-40 in my cars and motorcycles. If somebody wants to use a 20W-50 in the Savage in the summer...I am OK with that as the factory says it is OK in the owners manual - they may want to consider a thinner oil if they ride in cool temperatures. Here is a video to satisfy your interest in what motor oil looks like at -30 degrees.......not a good day for riding your motorcycle, and definitely the kind of weather that requires a block heater or warm garage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVn5OzuHtjg [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVn5OzuHtjg[/media] |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by batman on 06/13/19 at 10:41:21 Dave all numbers I used were not hard numbers , but used , as a reference and based on car oils , for example I said the viscosity of the oil when hot was 10-14 (@ 212 F) and it appears it's more like 9 t0 16 for 40 weight , 16 to as high as 21 for 50 weight. even so that shows that 50 wt. will create more pressure an therefore decrease flow ,that doesn't make anything I've said less relative, just less technical. so be it ,I've said my piece ,And I'm out of here . |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by hotrod on 06/13/19 at 13:40:24 Around 1966 I was a student in a automotive trade-high school in the Bronx NY. We had a old shop teacher who was very smart and had seen it all. One day he took a hand held oil gun , walked over to the window and squeezed out about one ounce of oil onto the glass and told us not to touch it. The next day he had us wipe our finger across the glass. A film of oil could clearly be felt. He then went on to tell us that this is how it works in a engine, and all the talk about oil starvation, and wear during start up was BS. That made sense to me. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by raydawg on 06/13/19 at 14:54:02 BIGGEST cause of engine wear is poor maintence..... Just like people, neglect leads to early demise, in most cases ;D |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by batman on 06/15/19 at 22:27:56 HOTROD, you wiped your fingers across it the next day , I put my bike away for six months(4,380 hrs) , not 24 hours . That's a whole different ball game. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/17/19 at 23:20:28 Pressures on bearings are created when compression and ignition happen. Oil pressure comes up after. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by hotrod on 06/18/19 at 11:18:51 How much later ? Pressure is there by rotation of the crankshaft, at times before ignition. At this point there is no load on the engine anyway. |
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Title: Re: The earth is flat Post by jcstokes on 06/18/19 at 13:26:59 I'm no techie, but I have read, the oil film coating lasts about two weeks, Hotrods teachers demo could well apply to a vehicle in daily or near daily use. |
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