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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Zionism /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1556039635 Message started by T And T Garage on 04/23/19 at 10:13:55 |
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Title: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/23/19 at 10:13:55 Why should we Americans care so much about Israel? bebe is going to name a town after trump in the Golan Heights. Seriously? Why? Is it only about the Bible? Is it only about the Rapture? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Serowbot on 04/23/19 at 10:20:43 Evangelical Christian Right's rush to see the end of times. They sorta' hate Jews, but support Israel to get their harps early... Weird...... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by WebsterMark on 04/23/19 at 10:32:40 I certainly hope no one takes the deranged bait you hung. If there's one thread that needs to be ignored, it's this one. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/23/19 at 11:00:33 6C5E59484F5E49765A49503B0 wrote:
"Deranged bait"? I'm honestly asking a question. Why Zionism? What makes Israel so important to the US? Why is that so tough to answer? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by MnSpring on 04/23/19 at 11:23:57 746A656469746F72000 wrote:
Why is: '...So who said, a convicted felon, should get/have a firearm ?..." So tough for you to answer ? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/23/19 at 11:26:27 6E4D7053514A4D44230 wrote:
Why is: '...So who said, a convicted felon, should get/have a firearm ?..." So tough for you to answer ? [/quote] mn - I told you, I don't know that answer. You obviously do - so tell me. Sheesh. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/23/19 at 15:07:05 Should felons be permitted to vote? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/23/19 at 15:14:13 3E292F232C3C4E0 wrote:
I don't believe they should. I differ from Bernie in that regard. But that is not the point of this post. Please address Zionism if you'd like. If you want to start another post about felons' voting - please do so. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by WebsterMark on 04/23/19 at 18:27:34 6275737F7060120 wrote:
No they shouldn't. Should we pay reparations? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/24/19 at 05:32:06 7D4F48595E4F58674B58412A0 wrote:
No they shouldn't. Should we pay reparations?[/quote] Perhaps you have mistaken me for someone else, NO and HELL NO! Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 05:35:13 So, is anyone going to comment on the Zionism? Is it that taboo? What are you afraid of? Tell me geniuses, why is Israel so important to the US? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by WebsterMark on 04/24/19 at 06:36:04 Do you think that was a 5 minute major against Vegas last night? I don't, it was a BS call that cost Vegas the game. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Eegore on 04/24/19 at 06:54:18 I think this is a valid question. The average American is aware we "support" Israel, but are not clear about why. Dodge the question all you want, but I do feel it is a valid question. My understanding is we support Israel for the logistics and historical alliance. The repercussions of abandoning Israel economically and militarily would result in the end of Israel, and that is a huge PR nightmare for the US. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 07:22:21 4C7E79686F7E69567A69701B0 wrote:
I see - you're afraid. Got it. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 07:31:19 7151535B4651340 wrote:
Thanks Eegore. That's kind of my understanding as well. I get that they're a democratic government in the Middle East and we all know what's there.... But I've also heard that there might be more. "Christian Zionism" goes much deeper. Are we allies because of the "coming Rapture"? Why is everyone so afraid of this topic? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by WebsterMark on 04/24/19 at 07:49:49 5C7C7E766B7C190 wrote:
It's a totally valid question, but there is nothing but deceit in TT's assertion that he wants to understand. He doesn't. He's perfectly aware of what his opinions are on the topic and he only posted this as a way to get Ray or somebody to engage which will inevitable end up with TT referring to Ray or any other Christian as some stupid, backward, knuckle dragging dredge of society. You can be so naďve as to think he was being serious are you? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by MnSpring on 04/24/19 at 09:02:05 6E707F7E736E75681A0 wrote:
To your question; “Why should we Americans care so much about Israel?" The answer, ‘Don’t believe Americans care any more or less, about Israel, than they do, Brazil, UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada, etc, etc, etc, etc,. Now answer this question. If I said these things, especially in a public Form, About a different Country, Race, or Religion, do you think the UL, FDS’s would call me, ‘Racist’ ? “… “It’s all about the Benjamins baby,”…” (Suggesting Israel pays for support) “…the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country…” (suggesting political support for Israel is wrong) “… "Israel has hypnotized the world. May Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.”…” (That one speaks for it’s self !) |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 09:31:04 122027363120370824372E450 wrote:
It's a totally valid question, but there is nothing but deceit in TT's assertion that he wants to understand. He doesn't. He's perfectly aware of what his opinions are on the topic and he only posted this as a way to get Ray or somebody to engage which will inevitable end up with TT referring to Ray or any other Christian as some stupid, backward, knuckle dragging dredge of society. You can be so naďve as to think he was being serious are you? [/quote] Well mark, I asked the question. If you have a valid argument, then post it. You assume far too much once again. Here I am, opening up a debate, and you shoot it down. How is that productive? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 09:34:53 00231E3D3F24232A4D0 wrote:
To your question; “Why should we Americans care so much about Israel?" The answer, ‘Don’t believe Americans care any more or less, about Israel, than they do, Brazil, UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada, etc, etc, etc, etc,. That might be a fair point, but our relationship in the Middle East says otherwise. Look at the uproar recently with Omar. Now answer this question. If I said these things, especially in a public Form, About a different Country, Race, or Religion, do you think the UL, FDS’s would call me, ‘Racist’ ? “… “It’s all about the Benjamins baby,”…” (Suggesting Israel pays for support) “…the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country…” (suggesting political support for Israel is wrong) “… "Israel has hypnotized the world. May Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.”…” (That one speaks for it’s self !) [/quote] Well, once again mn - it's all about context. Your question is lacking and 100% out of context. And, once again, you're getting off topic. My question is - why is the US so attached to Israel? What makes them so special? Is it just about the Rapture? If it is - doesn't that give you pause? If it isn't, then what is it? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by MnSpring on 04/24/19 at 09:53:22 726C63626F726974060 wrote:
Excellent job, of moving the Goalposts, again ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/24/19 at 10:03:16 14370A292B30373E590 wrote:
Excellent job, of moving the Goalposts, again ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D[/quote] mn -do you even know what that phrase means? I don't think so. Let me remind you what my original post was. Why should we Americans care so much about Israel? bebe is going to name a town after trump in the Golan Heights. Seriously? Why? Is it only about the Bible? Is it only about the Rapture? The goalposts are in the same spot - to continue the metaphor. The only real response has been from Eegore. Now - if you have something to add - great. If not. Well... |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Eegore on 04/24/19 at 14:03:57 "You can be so naďve as to think he was being serious are you?" I don't care what his motive is. I feel that, for me, it is a valid question. Many people that I know could not tell you how Israel even started, let alone what our foreign policy is. People know the US supports Israel, but do not know why. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/24/19 at 18:41:53 I will put a toe in that water. The concept of Zionism was started with Theodor Herzl and the Judenstaat. Most people acknowledge the Balfour Declaration as the first international recognition of the movement. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/25/19 at 05:50:10 4750565A5545370 wrote:
But that doesn't answer the question as to why does the US have such an interest. Is it all religious? Is it something else? |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Eegore on 04/25/19 at 08:46:22 I would say it's not exclusively religious. Look at the short-lived backlash and concerns when Trump asked why the US is in the UN. That's an economic and military concern. Israel is in a similar boat, if we tell them they are on their own, the US loses a ton of credibility, which will have economic impact, and it won' matter what religion anyone is. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/25/19 at 09:56:21 79595B534E593C0 wrote:
I see. That makes sense in one respect. But I still don't really see "what's in it for us?" I'm not saying abandon them by any means - but when a representative in the House gets called out for questioning her loyalty to Israel - that doesn't make sense to me. Looking through with capitalistic glasses on - they really don't have anything to offer us - do they? No oil, no ores, no real exports. It seems to be 100% political. Well, maybe 60% political and 40% religious. Are our leaders really that bent on making sure there's an Israel state so that when Jesus comes back, he comes back to the right place? Is that part of it?? And if it is - huh??...... |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/25/19 at 11:28:24 I also don't understand why Is real is such a huge deal. I know about the Balfor agreement, but forgot most of it. I well know about the attack on the USS Liberty. I don't understand why our foreign policy is so often something that looks like Israel designed it. I'm not sure I even know the difference between Zionism and whatever else they believe. Apparently I am ignorant about some things that others have investigated. Look it up Zi·on·ism [ch712]z[ch299][ch601][ch716]niz[ch601]m] NOUN a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann. Sounds benign enough... But,, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Trippah on 04/25/19 at 15:27:06 The main reason is it is important to Europe, both the nations that tried to exterminate Jews (eg Germany, occupied Poland, Occupied France, Russia when not killing Georgans etc). It became clear to them that the US (the Winner of WWII) wanted a safe place for all the unwanted but still living Jews to go to, and nobody cared about Arabs since the Arab leadership was willing to do whatever to keep British petroleum happy and money producing. As in most things, follow the money. Does it matter to the US now - to the Large and influencial NY City Jewish population pretty much a yes , but not even universally there. To the Religious Right - yeah, after all if the rapture is coming, you will contribute even more. As in most things follow the money. ;D |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by T And T Garage on 04/25/19 at 15:36:40 193F243D3D2C254D0 wrote:
Thanks Trippah - keen insight! |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/25/19 at 18:27:46 I agree with much of Trippah's post and I will add a bit of commentary. I believe the support they get is overwhelmingly political and the vast majority of people who may support them based on religion aren't policy makers. Also why does everyone believe the US won WW2? I content the US won the pacific theatre and Russians won in Europe. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Eegore on 04/25/19 at 18:53:48 Russia indicates they won WW II. It's easier than calculating percentages and saying Russia won 51% of WW II and the US won 42% and Britain won 7%. Also I figure when a country indicates a win/loss they mean their very specific contribution versus a calculated breakdown. I learned in grade school that the Russian winter devastated Germany and that Russia became a super power in part to their contribution resulting in the elimination of Nazi Germany expansion. They won their defensive if I recall correctly in Stalingrad in 43. As far as I am concerned Russia did a ton of work, but the US saved civilized Europe, part of that was the US resupplies to Russia through northeastern Siberia. The other part being a faster and more efficient push into Europe than Russia would have been able to do on their own. Russia did not as far as I know assist in North Africa, the US did. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/26/19 at 03:24:00 Operation Barbarossa was the German offensive into Eastern Europe and as close as 200 miles from Moscow. The battle of Stalingrad was a turning point in the war and was the bloodiest battle in recorded history. Russia suffered 1.1M casualties during that front in roughly 5 months. 25-30M Russians perished during the entire war. American suffered less than 420K casualties in all of WW2, if that puts the carnage in perspective. After the war the Russia was in control of roughly half of Europe; hence, my reasoning why Russia won WW2. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by Eegore on 04/26/19 at 05:07:20 I can see how land-holding is a measurable factor towards victory. I don't consider casualties to be a strong factor as a lower casualty rate is actually more desirable. I've never done the math but I suppose taking the time in battle, square acreage loss/gain ratio and casualty numbers could be calculated. I know Stalin did a rather poor job regarding initial defense application and general strategic application was poor. Shooting your own men, which was common, certainly added to that casualty rate. I imagine Russia would have turned things around eventually, but nowhere near as fast without Allied assistance including the US supply drops. It would have taken decades maybe. I don't think the US in exclusivity "won" WWII, I feel it was a combination of forces. However I don't think especially in 1950's America that anyone thought the US did it alone, but when painting up a banner it was easier to put "We won!" than "We Contributed in part to a Combination of Forces that Won!" One thing I have noticed is that too many people think Pearl Harbor started WWII in general, and many don't know how late D-Day happened. Saving Private Ryan to many was where WWII began. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by verslagen1 on 04/26/19 at 07:25:38 America fought a global war, russia fought a european war. America fought in defense of it's allies, russia fought for acquisition of land. If you going to compare apples to oranges, it's going to look lopsided. |
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Title: Re: Zionism Post by pg on 04/26/19 at 17:37:05 Here are a couple other facts that aren't commonly known. The Soviet Union invaded Poland 3 weeks after the Nazis did. Stalin and Hitler had a pact at the beginning of the war, they were allies. After the war the Soviets used many of concentration camps that Nazis built. Best regards, |
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