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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Conservatives: which is more important? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1553428801 Message started by LostArtist on 03/24/19 at 05:00:01 |
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Title: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/24/19 at 05:00:01 Democracy or Capitalism |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/24/19 at 15:41:15 Good question. First step in answering is another question: can you have one without the other? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/24/19 at 17:26:33 Are non-Conservatism opinions allowed in this thread? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/24/19 at 17:49:28 Are you admitting you're a self-described liberal? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/24/19 at 17:50:36 "Are you admitting you're a self-described liberal?" No. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by T And T Garage on 03/24/19 at 17:55:21 536166777061764965766F040 wrote:
So what if he is? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by oldNslow on 03/24/19 at 18:34:36 0A383F2E29382F103C2F365D0 wrote:
Yes. It is entirely possible to have a capitalist economy without democracy. Example, China. It is also possible to have democracy without capitalism. Just convince a majority of the people to vote for a socialist economy. That won't be sustainable for very long but it can work for a while. Example, Venezuela |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/24/19 at 20:00:33 7E606F6E637E65780A0 wrote:
So what if he is? [/quote] No one asked you. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/24/19 at 20:02:09 66585955475B5A340 wrote:
Yes. It is entirely possible to have a capitalist economy without democracy. Example, China. It is also possible to have democracy without capitalism. Just convince a majority of the people to vote for a socialist economy. That won't be sustainable for very long but it can work for a while. Example, Venezuela [/quote] A key element of capitalism is a level of freedom that doesn't exist in China does it? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by oldNslow on 03/25/19 at 06:38:49 Quote:
China's is a totalitarian regime for sure. But the rulers have recognized that the way to have the robust economy that they need to be a major player on the world stage is a capitalist economic system. They have taken a very hands off approach to private investment,entrepreneurship, private business development, and trade. The regime understands that that is what generates wealth. It's possible for a private citizen in China to become very wealthy, and to keep a significant portion of that wealth. That looks like capitalism to me. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 07:16:54 Since there seems to be no requirement that only "Conservatives" provide input I am going to say I agree with oldnslow regarding his assessment of Chinese economy and associated structure of government. Chine realized that, for them, the US/European economical structure would be better. As for the question posted in the original post, I am assuming it pertains to the US economy and not globally as the variables are too extensive and fluid to create a global average and educated opinion. I do not know and as such can not create an opinion on what "important" refers to as both Capitalism and Democracy have varying degrees of importance in relation to subject discussed. For the US I believe, at this time, Capitalism is of more importance due to the extremely large debt cycle the US economy is in. This assumes that since Capitalism isn't a structure of governance, and Democracy isn't a structure of economy one does not preclude the other. So given both are present Capitalism, at this time, is of more importance specifically to creating a recovering economical horizon that could be sustainable. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 07:23:43 To a degree, but fair point. Ok, for the sake of argument, let's assume you can have capitalism without democracy. can you have the reverse? examples other than Venezuela ? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 07:44:07 To be clear Capitalism, in my opinion, includes a political component but not Democracy as a requirement. A number of African states technically operate under Non-Capitalist economic structure while maintaining non-Democratic, typically Authoritarian government structure. Most of the local economies run off of local structured pricing, they can't own their product and set their own pricing, key components to Capitalism. I utilize EIU World Democracy Index parameters among 9 others to calculate my definition of Democratic governance and Capitalism. Three primary and easy to use resources follow: http://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index https://www.heritage.org/index/ https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2018-annual-report You can use this tool to graph your own data: https://www.heritage.org/index/visualize One can compare Capitalist rating with Democratic rating and find a number of countries technically operating as a Non-Capitalist economy with at most a "flawed" Democracy. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by T And T Garage on 03/25/19 at 07:45:59 7C4E49585F4E59664A59402B0 wrote:
So what if he is? [/quote] No one asked you. [/quote] Touchy, aren't you? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 07:54:49 Not at all, its just this has the potential to be an interesting discussion and you'll ruin it. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by T And T Garage on 03/25/19 at 08:03:19 427077666170675874677E150 wrote:
Oh please. You've had such great debates as "shut up" - so don't preach to me. The OP was about capitalism vs democracy. Yet you have to ask Eegore if he's a liberal. (do liberals really bother you that much? sheesh...) Take your own advice and look at his response above. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 08:50:09 and no one has actually answered yet... one said, in the US because of our debt, they'd pick capitalism.... but I should clarify.... this is about philosophy, not situational would you rather have democracy, as in, a one person, one vote, a say for the common person in governance or capitalism where money = power but please correct me though, I know capitalism is much more involved than that, so let's come to a SIMPLE definition we can all agree on and to be fair, I'll put my cards on the table, I choose democracy, because capitalism hasn't worked for me... which is totally my fault, I'm just not motivated or excited by money... I understand you work to pay and that paying equals value, and all that I get the system, I work, I've never taken any money from the government for anything, I pay rent, food, medical bills, etc... I live in capitalism, I get it. I'm a failure in a purely capitalistic sense. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 09:07:19 637D72737E637865170 wrote:
Oh please. You've had such great debates as "shut up" - so don't preach to me. The OP was about capitalism vs democracy. Yet you have to ask Eegore if he's a liberal. (do liberals really bother you that much? sheesh...) Take your own advice and look at his response above.[/quote] Shut up. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 09:15:08 7C5F4344714244594344300 wrote:
For one, I'd say capitalism has in fact worked for you. you're confusing capitalism with extreme wealth. it's more about freedom to achieve whatever level of living your desires and ability takes you to. if you're comfortable in your life, fine. I've had opportunities to move for more, but am comfortable where I am. I don't want the extra work load or to relocate. For me, if i had to pick one, I'd say capitalism is more important because it's far more likely capitalism will result in a society ruled by some variation of a democratic system. But I contend you can't have one without the other. At the very least, you can't have some variation of one without the other. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by oldNslow on 03/25/19 at 09:29:13 192B2C3D3A2B3C032F3C254E0 wrote:
I haven't looked at Eegore's links yet but these come to mind; Zimbabwe, South Africa, and sometime in the next decade or so, most of the EU |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 09:33:45 0E2E2C24392E4B0 wrote:
So in other words, fifty shades of grey ? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 09:59:04 0F3D3A2B2C3D2A15392A33580 wrote:
For one, I'd say capitalism has in fact worked for you. you're confusing capitalism with extreme wealth. it's more about freedom to achieve whatever level of living your desires and ability takes you to. if you're comfortable in your life, fine. I've had opportunities to move for more, but am comfortable where I am. I don't want the extra work load or to relocate. For me, if i had to pick one, I'd say capitalism is more important because it's far more likely capitalism will result in a society ruled by some variation of a democratic system. But I contend you can't have one without the other. At the very least, you can't have some variation of one without the other. [/quote] no, capitalism hasn't worked for me, I WORK FOR IT cause I have to. and you can still achieve whatever level of living you want in a democracy, if you can convince the majority to vote you what you want... you still work, just in a different way perhaps... is the recognition that all humans are equal (democracy) important? I contend that you only get that via a pursuit of democracy, not capitalism. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by T And T Garage on 03/25/19 at 10:30:59 506265747362754A66756C070 wrote:
Oh please. You've had such great debates as "shut up" - so don't preach to me. The OP was about capitalism vs democracy. Yet you have to ask Eegore if he's a liberal. (do liberals really bother you that much? sheesh...) Take your own advice and look at his response above.[/quote] Shut up.[/quote] LOL - yep, just the response I encouraged and got you to say. So predictable. So easy. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 11:09:13 "this is about philosophy, not situational would you rather have democracy, as in, a one person, one vote, a say for the common person in governance or capitalism where money = power but please correct me though, I know capitalism is much more involved than that, so let's come to a SIMPLE definition we can all agree on" While I don't agree that involving Capitalism the comparison of money = power in exclusivity is correct, I think it perhaps it can be money = Potential (Potential squared might even be better) for this discussion. With that in mind I still don't quite understand the connection when it comes to preference of one over the other. For instance am I being asked if I have the option of being able to vote or being able to make enough money to purchase a seat in local or national elections? Money = power and power = purchasing power thus people with more money can purchase seats in local and national elections in place of Democratic elections? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 11:26:27 LOL - yep, just the response I encouraged and got you to say. So predictable. So easy. Hush. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 11:36:03 so, maybe..... Capitalism = the pursuit of money (the invisible hand of the marketplace moves to increase efficiency to increase profit) Democracy = the pursuit of equality (one person one vote) |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 11:36:03 no, capitalism hasn't worked for me, I WORK FOR IT cause I have to. and you can still achieve whatever level of living you want in a democracy, if you can convince the majority to vote you what you want... you still work, just in a different way perhaps... is the recognition that all humans are equal (democracy) important? I contend that you only get that via a pursuit of democracy, not capitalism. Lost, you wrote those words on a computer you purchased while sitting on a chair in a house you purchased or apartment you pay rent on sitting. Your PC has more computing power than what took men to the moon. Individuals developed the methods to design it, source the raw materials, produce it and bring it to market. they did this under both a form of democratic rule that endorsed a capitalistic business model. Without capitalism, you would be struggling to feed yourself, stay warm and out of the cold. is the recognition that all humans are equal (democracy) important? I contend that you only get that via a pursuit of democracy, not capitalism Are all humans equal? In what regard? All humans have worth. Are they equal in every manner? No. Society judges some humans to be less equal than others. We put violent offenders in prison for example and take away their freedom. We do that using a democratic system, not a capitalistic one. We're blending a lot of definitions here, squeezing round pegs in square holes. I stand by my point that you can't really have one without the other. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 11:38:50 02213D3A0F3C3A273D3A4E0 wrote:
If that's the case, you can't compare and make a selection since they are different things. Speaking of invisible hands, if you've not read this before, read it. https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/ |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 12:31:04 "If that's the case, you can't compare and make a selection since they are different things." I agree. Capitalism and Democracy unless you are stating are mutually exclusive, are not similar enough to make a decision between the two. Pursuit of money, OR pursuit of Democratic election process are hard for me to compress into one thing. When I vote (Democracy) how am I excluding my personal process of financial gain? Am I being told, in this post, that if I choose equal voting I can not run a business or otherwise work towards personal financial goals? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 12:47:04 556760717667704F637069020 wrote:
I can see how it can be hard to separate the two, we've been born and raised in a culture that thinks the two are all but synonymous. But they aren't. so let's work on figuring out what they are. Democracy is, is a form of government that says the governed should have a say in that government, ideally, perhaps, and equal say, meaning that your vote doesn't count any more than my vote ( 1 = 1). The goal of democracy is to achieve security and stability in a community via that community's input. capitalism is NOT a form of government, but in fact rejects government and embraces individual ownership rights and individual right to pursue money/profit. The goal of capitalism is to make as much profit as possible. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 12:49:39 let's put this another way.... which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human or profit |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 12:52:32 427077666170675874677E150 wrote:
If that's the case, you can't compare and make a selection since they are different things. Speaking of invisible hands, if you've not read this before, read it. https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/ [/quote] why not?? would you rather have the color red or a hamburger? would you rather have a pencil or a wrench? you get asked this all the time in capitalism, would you rather have $5 or a magazine? puppy or baby? coffee or a nap? motorcycle or a paint booth? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 12:54:41 which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human or profit Humane equal treatment. I don't consider Democracy to be a requirement for that, nor do I consider positive asset acquisition to be inhumane. Given the option to make financial decisions for myself, or to elect someone to do it for me, I would prefer to make my own financial decisions. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 12:59:14 68484A425F482D0 wrote:
you don't consider the idea that everyone has a basic sameness to their value a requirement for treating people humanely? profit by itselt isn't inhumane.. but there't nothing about profit that requires humane or inhumane treatment on any level. whereas with democracy, you must consider the humanity of the person, otherwise why give them power to vote? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 13:11:17 "you don't consider the idea that everyone has a basic sameness to their value a requirement for treating people humanely?" I do. That is why I chose "humane equal treatment of your fellow human" over "profit". I am just attempting to abide by the parameters of your question, which as far as I can tell is stating that a choice between Capitalism OR Democracy is to be made. That choice is based off the idea that Capitalism = power, and Democracy = equality, even though I don't know how that is possible unless we simply redefine both. It may be easier to not use the terms Capitalism or Democracy and just ask if we would rather have Equality with Profitability or Profitability without Equality. That's what you are asking am I correct? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 13:27:39 2707050D1007620 wrote:
that's another way of wording my ORIGINAL posting, "WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT" at no point in there did I say either or... it was a ranking question, which you and others misunderstood and took all day to get back to my original question.... I said nothing about this excluding the other and I NEVER defined capitalism as Capitalism = power... YOU DID I feel like that scene in Men In Black 2 with the key in the pizza shop [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVAF5hhwnw[/media] |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 13:28:04 I can see how it can be hard to separate the two, we've been born and raised in a culture that thinks the two are all but synonymous. But they aren't. I don't think they are, I'm not sure if anyone thinks they are. They are two separate systems. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 13:33:52 714344555243546B47544D260 wrote:
sure they do, people think private ownership of property is an equalizing factor in humanity, this makes the serf on par with royalty back in the day, the difference between a slave and a free man, the right to own property... this elevates serfs and slaves to having to have some kind of human right.... the right to govern themselves and their property perhaps? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 13:34:51 I'm the one who said in order to answer that question, which is more important, I asked can you have one without the other. I don't believe you can, at least not in any manner in which either are functioning to a degree in which individual's lives are impacted. Capitalism requires democracy to function effectively. Democracy requires capitalism to function effectively. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 13:42:16 794B4C5D5A4B5C634F5C452E0 wrote:
that's a cop out. to use Eegore's framing of the question: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? to be fair, Eegore said "would rather have Equality with Profitability or Profitability without Equality." but obviously we'd all choose "Equality with Profitability" so this: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? is a better question for contrasting the ideas |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 14:03:39 so this: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? is a better question for contrasting the ideas In that case, since you're metaphorically putting a gun to my head and making me choose between two things you say are in the same category, but I say are not............ I pick Profitability without Equality. Humans are not content to just exist. We push outward. The idea of everyone of us being as unique as sardines in a giant school or a flock of birds moving in unison is appalling. Biblically speaking, Heaven itself is not populated with Saints all of equal stature. A hierarchy exist. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 14:46:37 350700111607102F031009620 wrote:
so is profitability the only aspect of humans that you think can be different? equality does not mean hive mind.... we are not the Borg. and again, it's not all or the other, so, I guess a better way of phrasing that would be: would rather have more Equality with less Profitability or more Profitability with less Equality? and then, at what level? why are conservatives such all or nothing personalities? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/25/19 at 15:36:22 so is profitability the only aspect of humans that you think can be different? No. You gave me a choice between A and B. why are conservatives such all or nothing personalities? If this was just some long ploy to manipulate a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question so you could try and apply that to a political ideology, then shame on you. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 15:37:29 would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality Profitability without Equality. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 16:49:58 526067767160774864776E050 wrote:
so if I accuse you of putting the profit motive over doing the right thing.... now you know why |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by MnSpring on 03/25/19 at 17:46:43 Here is a very good explanation. [media]https://www.facebook.com/ucmilitia/videos/277316522910288/?t=3[/media] https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=277316522910288 |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/25/19 at 19:10:44 1B380526243F3831560 wrote:
okay, that's actually pretty good, however, not really what this thread is about. But I don't totally disagree with that video so, here, let me try this one more time, this might be a bit of a change up from before, but more to my original intent, I'll use an example I like Motorcycle helmets with an inner shaded drop down visor, modular capability, ratcheting chin strap (not DD ring), and white or yellow in color. so, which of those features is most important to least important to me 1. drop down visor 2. ratcheting chin strap 3. modular 4. color so I ask which it more important Democracy or Capitalism you all know what those words mean, so let's not go through the fiasco of defining them it's not and exclusionary ranking, so it's not one without the other so perhaps a way to look at it is. do you want the government to focus on giving more of it's power to the people, or to focus on increasing the ease of making profits for companies/ people, whoever, again, the government can also be working on expanding the rights of the people to have a say, and in the other side they can also be working on smaller steps to increase profits. we already know Eegore and Web want capitalism and profits to be #! priority, anyone else? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/25/19 at 20:16:53 For the record since I already have the right to vote, and as far as I know all legal citizens I know do, I don't have much of a reason to prioritize making less money since it won't allow me to vote twice if I do. When you state "giving more of it's power to the people" what do you mean? So far you have indicated 1 person - 1 voice, which as far as I understand that means Democratically is that I get one vote per legal election. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 06:09:49 so if I accuse you of putting the profit motive over doing the right thing.... now you know why No. You can't go around putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say profit over doing the right thing. You said that. This is like the video's technique of assuming and speaking from a position of 'rightness' down to a position of 'wrongness'. I don't accept that premise. You're take is a very simplistic one; profit is bad, democracy is good. I still say they are not directly comparable. Capitalism is not a form of governance. It is an economic system which is purposely selected by a given government. I say democracies tend to select (or rather they evolve into) capitalism and capitalistic societies tend to 'select' democracies. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by oldNslow on 03/26/19 at 06:43:01 Quote:
I don't believe that's true in all cases. When a majority of voters in a democratic country convince themselves that they can vote to redistribute wealth from those who produce it to those who don't, but feel they are entitled to some of it anyway, and elect political leaders who pursue those policies, then those countries drift toward socialism. One of the ways those voters convince themselves to vote like that is the belief that somehow "profit" and "doing the right thing" are mutually exclusive. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 06:56:12 So we could say; socialism is the natural evolutionary step from a successful democracy which embraced capitalism. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by oldNslow on 03/26/19 at 07:26:06 6B595E4F48594E715D4E573C0 wrote:
There is an awful lot of evidence that supports that conclusion I'm afraid. I don't think it necessarily has to happen that way. But for things not to trend in that direction requires an ethical, self disciplined, and thoughtful electorate, So I'm not optimistic. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 07:39:18 It's a little like population control. The reason why the Population Bomb and all the other fears about too many people never occur. As societies become more prosperous, they naturally regulate children. And since the world as a whole has become far more prosperous over the past generations, the global population regulated itself. That's why there was no population bomb. Likewise, as a democratic society becomes more prosperous (through capitalism in all its forms including watered down ones) the hard lessons learned about freedom become more and more faint. So the idea of controlling speech for example becomes more palatable than in generations past. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 08:09:57 why should the government put the economy as a priority over all the other ideals of democracy? "As an ideal, democracy aims essentially to preserve and promote the dignity and fundamental rights of the individual, to achieve social justice, foster the economic and social development of the community, strengthen the cohesion of society and enhance national tranquillity, as well as to create a climate that is favourable for international peace. As a form of government, democracy is the best way of achieving these objectives; it is also the only political system that has the capacity for self-correction." http://archive.ipu.org/cnl-e/161-dem.htm |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 08:15:29 National prosperity is a prerequisite for "to preserve and promote the dignity and fundamental rights of the individual, to achieve social justice, foster the economic and social development of the community, strengthen the cohesion of society and enhance national tranquillity, as well as to create a climate that is favourable for international peace. Capitalism provides for prosperity for individuals and therefore revenues for government to accomplish those ideals above. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 08:17:53 5E7E7C74697E1B0 wrote:
who said anything about making LESS money???? you really read into things don't you? isn't our voter participation rate something like 60% for presidential elections and 40% for mid-term years? So there's more people who can vote that don't |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 08:32:20 704245545342556A46554C270 wrote:
okay, that's a good answer.... and I'm for capitalism preserving and promoting the dignity and fundamental rights of the individual, to achieve social justice.... but do you see that happening? Isn't it your side that flips out when the left boycotts a company when they don't see them doing that? so basically, what's our core common value... is it profit for profit sake alone and that'll cure everything or is it this greater ideal of democracy, which while includes capitalism, but in a support roll instead of the star actor? isn't capitalism stronger, more competitive if more people are allowed/able to participate at all different levels of it? Shouldn't that be encouraged and promoted? I'd consider the USA the most prosperous nation in the world right? should government interference in our capitalistic marketplace be encouraged? just as a side idea, wonder what it'd be like if we, as a nation, agreed to just leave taxes alone regardless of anything else, these are your rates, these are your legal deductions, PERIOD for let's say 25 years minimum |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Serowbot on 03/26/19 at 08:48:37 What good is capitalism, politically speaking, if the prosperity is not used for the greater good of the citizenry?... Without some social equity, it is just a haven for billionaires... Even billionaires want pleasant streets, safe bridges, clean food and water, a strong, healthy workforce,... etc... Left unchecked,... capitalism leads to a two class system. The haves and havenots. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by MnSpring on 03/26/19 at 09:41:42 4D6E7275407375687275010 wrote:
You first asked: which is more important? Democracy or Capitalism Those are two different things. Democracy is a Political system, with some economic features. Capitalism, is a Economic system, with some political features. It would be like asking the question, of fruit lovers; “which is more important?, a Apple or a Orange” Thus I posted a link, which I thought was very good, about someone else’s description of, government/political entries. (which one of the, 'ether/or', things is not a political system) So go ahead tt, and SLAM away, just because my POV is not the same as yours ! (I am totally prepared to be called a Nazi by tt, and told this post looks like a ransom note. Or perhaps that I am a, moron, maybe even a, naive little boy) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 10:01:39 isn't capitalism stronger, more competitive if more people are allowed/able to participate at all different levels of it? Shouldn't that be encouraged and promoted I believe it is, isn't it? For example, we have everything from the Small Business Administration to the stock exchange, a private organization but heavily regulated. I think you just mostly choose to see the negative aspects of our society. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 10:03:03 What good is capitalism, politically speaking, if the prosperity is not used for the greater good of the citizenry?... Without some social equity, it is just a haven for billionaires... Jesus H Christ man.... look around you. Wherever you are, look around you and tell me this is a haven for billionaires.... Like Lost, you only choose to see the dark side and never the much larger, brighter side. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by MnSpring on 03/26/19 at 10:23:59 6274637E66737E65110 wrote:
Isn’t that the Country of Belize? Where their is NO extradition to the USA. Where, reportedly, are 48 of the top 50, billionaires... of the former Enron Co ?. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Serowbot on 03/26/19 at 10:30:08 Funny,... you both assume I'm speaking specifically of America.... We're talking about the general concept of capitalism... Jump the gun much?... :-? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 10:30:10 2C0F321113080F06610 wrote:
You first asked: which is more important? Democracy or Capitalism Those are two different things. Democracy is a Political system, with some economic features. Capitalism, is a Economic system, with some political features. It would be like asking the question, of fruit lovers; “which is more important?, a Apple or a Orange” Thus I posted a link, which I thought was very good, about someone else’s description of, government/political entries. (which one of the, 'ether/or', things is not a political system) So go ahead tt, and SLAM away, just because my POV is not the same as yours ! (I am totally prepared to be called a Nazi by tt, and told this post looks like a ransom note. Or perhaps that I am a, moron, maybe even a, naive little boy) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D [/quote] I've already been through this, you can still rank different things according to your personal preference. I prefer a drop down sun visor in my helmet over a ratcheting chin strap, I prefer Apples more than oranges... both of which are the same thing, FRUIT so maybe try some other example next time... I prefer yellow over a internet meme.. etc.... and I already responded to your posted link, if you start a new thread I'll participate in it, as I didn't totally disagree with it and there are things worth discussing about it. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 10:32:09 7B494E5F58495E614D5E472C0 wrote:
quit talking like you know me, you egotistical greedy a$$ . <--- see the irony? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 10:47:37 3224332E36232E35410 wrote:
Fine, expand it to the broader world. The world is a far, far better place than ever before. That's due to freedom and capitalism. https://www.humanprogress.org/article.php?p=1779 |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 10:49:31 quit talking like you know me, you egotistical greedy a$$ . <--- see the irony? Practically everything you've said in this thread Lost has been geared towards pointing out the inequities, the poverty, the unfairness. Now, you're either doing this in a liberal attempt to try and make a point with a conservative or you naturally see the glass as half empty. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 11:58:40 586A6D7C7B6A7D426E7D640F0 wrote:
nope, where have I pointed out any inequities, or poverty or unfairness? I've never used any of those words in any of my posts here until now.... even when I told my story of being a failure in capitalism, I never said it was unfair, or that I was in proverty or felt treated poorly, just that capitalism doesn't work for me, personally you started out refusing to even accept the premise, but there was no premise, just a ranking option.... then you all but attacked someone as being a "closet liberal" all this negativity..... and you blame me for being pessimistic? Then you all re-defined the premise... and yeah I got lost in that and helped... I asked to rank democracy and capitalism, a conservative reworded that to Profitability and equality.... conservatives brought the negativity into this conversation anyway..... just pointing out that the differences between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives mainly care about the economy... "dignity and fundamental rights of the individual, to achieve social justice, foster the .... social development of the community, strengthen the cohesion of society and enhance national tranquillity, as well as to create a climate that is favourable for international peace." those are at best a side effect to a conservative, they aren't even really concerned with making those the actual goals of the government. conservatives see everything through an economic lens here's the reality, as backed up by this thread conservatives = $$$$$$ if you see a negative value associated with that, then that's YOU, as Eegore might say, so maybe look into yourself to see why you might be doing that... conservatives see a positive association with a profit motive, that being selfish and greedy is good, or it at least leads to the greater good via a convoluted system of trickle down and all ships rising.... where some of us, well, why can't we just do the greater good directly? Not saying to dismiss capitalism, but, maybe make it priority 2, or 3 maybe.... idk, just some thoughts |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/26/19 at 13:13:28 "who said anything about making LESS money???? you really read into things don't you? " You did when you said: " I guess a better way of phrasing that would be: would rather have more Equality with less Profitability or more Profitability with less Equality?" How else am I to assess that statement? You literally say "less Profitability", so is Profitability meaning something other than money? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 13:20:35 6141434B5641240 wrote:
well, I guess you could take it that way.... I was thinking more on a systematic/national level, not an individual level, like a system that emphasizes equality more and profitability less, but individual levels would be determined by each person's/company's individual circumstances and remember, that was me trying to rephrase your rephrasing of my original question and we both missed what I was trying to say originally... yeah, most of that's on me, I got all caught up in the conversation... |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 13:22:53 oh and for the record, conservatives aren't wrong that capitalism has been a really really really powerful movement for positive change and movement towards equality.... |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/26/19 at 13:51:18 I guess I don't see enough similarities between Capitalism and Democracy to say I would prefer one over the other since in my situation they are both present and as far as I know more inclusive government programs require more money. If the basic idea is I can state I want more Equality, and also not lose money through taxation, reduced economic growth, or infrastructure funding reductions then it would be ridiculous to say Capitalism comes first, simply because my local economy wouldn't be effected. When you say "emphasizes equality more and profitability less" What is "more Equality"? As far as I know we already have 1 vote for every legally registered person. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/26/19 at 14:07:38 here's the reality, as backed up by this thread conservatives = $$$$$$ Not true. I told you I've turned down offers for more $$$$ because I value my family life more. I've offered jobs to people who have turned them down for the same reason. You're default believe about conservatives is wrong. $$$ is far from the primary driver of everyday life. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 14:18:11 0C3E39282F3E29163A29305B0 wrote:
maybe... for you and your personal life, sure, make whatever choices you want... but for government or for others.... money is your concern. tax cuts and deregulation = more money if morals were your main concern, you wouldn't have voted for Trump... or Clinton, you probably wouldn't be very political at all |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 14:38:20 4A6A68607D6A0F0 wrote:
so as long as YOU have it, that's enough..... and no, we don't have 1 vote fore very legally registered person, not all legally registered people go vote, some are purged from the registration for partisan reasons, some can't get rides, some don't have "proper" ID... denying felons the right to vote for the rest of their lives... you know, as a deterrent (what a joke) and not all who are eligible to vote, register to vote, so maybe the association of equality has a strong aspect of inclusiveness in it, maybe? and again, the original question IS a ranking question, not either or, not that one subtracts from the other..... just which do you consider to be more important in general everyday life, yes, you have both.... I have a helmet with BOTH a drop down sun visor and a ratcheting chin strap, I like the drop down visor more |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by MnSpring on 03/26/19 at 16:54:30 41627E794C7F79647E790D0 wrote:
and no, we don’t have 1 vote fore very legally registered person, Yes their is. Every Legal registered Citizen. not all legally registered people go vote, Who’s problem is that ? some are purged from the registration for partisan reasons, No, and NO. If that happens, that person has a lot of options to remedy that. some can’t get rides, Who’s problem is that. some don't have “proper” ID... Who’s fault is that? (Just ask any Democrat, they will get one for them) denying felons the right to vote for the rest of their lives… Yea, it’s called, Choice, their Choice, They LOST that RIGHT. and not all who are eligible to vote, register to vote, One more time, Who’s fault is that ! |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/26/19 at 16:55:00 "not all legally registered people go vote" There's no way I am willing to agree that my tax dollars should somehow go to a program that creates a way to get a vote out of someone who chooses not to. "some are purged from the registration for partisan reasons, some can't get rides, some don't have "proper" ID" If these can be modified I am for it. I am all for allowing Native Americans without USPS addresses to vote, I am all for digital voting commissions going to people who can't leave the home. How would this be paid for would be my primary concern as perpetuating a debt cycle will result in more deficiencies later. "denying felons the right to vote for the rest of their lives" I am only for denying currently incarcerated felons. I do not want my taxes going to creating a way to get a fair voting system implemented within the prison system based on cost alone. The years it would take to decide if they get to vote in the state they are incarcerated in, or born in, or registered in etc. is a lot to go through for people who commit crimes while grandma can't get food or to the voting booth. For that matter I'd rather the money be allocated to an Innocence Project that frees wrongly convicted persons before spending that money keeping them in prison but getting them a vote. " just which do you consider to be more important in general everyday life, yes, you have both" As I said before, if the parameter is one OR the other, then I would choose Capitalism first because equality is costly. They both exist, but only one is "more important" To clarify: Ranking, to me, is the prioritization of two or more subjects that are placed within a descending numerical structure based off of personal opinion. In this case I have two choices, Democracy AND Equality. I will call them C-1 for choice 1 and C-2 for choice 2. In order to rank them I will categorize them numerically in my personal opinion scale that ranges from 1 being highest and descending in single whole number value to 2 being the lowest. Given the choice to rank I must choose C-1 OR C-2 to take the number one spot within my numerical ranking structure. Thus I have a choice of C-1 OR C-2 which can also be stated as having a choice between Democracy OR Capitalism to take the number 1 spot. Both exist but only one can be priority. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 18:30:02 50734E6D6F74737A1D0 wrote:
and no, we don’t have 1 vote fore very legally registered person, Yes their is. Every Legal registered Citizen., as explained IN THE VERY NEXT PART, NOT ALL LEGALLY REGISTERED PEOPLE VOTE, SO THEREFOR NOT EVERY LEGAL REGISTERED CITIZEN VOTES SO WE DON'T HAVE THOSE VOTES, JIMMY F-ING CHRIST not all legally registered people go vote, Who’s problem is that ? OURS, because we are not getting full participation of our citizens, meaning that a smaller group of people is making decisions for us ALL so we don't really have a representative republic because sometimes only 40% of the people being represented are voting so we have a MINORITY choosing our leaders and ruling over our population some are purged from the registration for partisan reasons, No, and NO. If that happens, that person has a lot of options to remedy that. it has happened and it's going through the courts now, you know, AFTER it's too late to count their vote some can’t get rides, Who’s problem is that. some don't have “proper” ID... Who’s fault is that? (Just ask any Democrat, they will get one for them) denying felons the right to vote for the rest of their lives… Yea, it’s called, Choice, their Choice, They LOST that RIGHT. so one mistake and you lose your right to participate? better hope they keep that rule at felonly and don't lower it to say anyone with a speeding ticket ever..... and not all who are eligible to vote, register to vote, One more time, Who’s fault is that ! ours, for having a system where you have to register to vote in the first place, you won't let the government have a registration of gun owners but voters and how they vote,sure, no problem.... [/quote] |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/26/19 at 18:52:04 6E4E4C44594E2B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/26/19 at 19:35:28 "make it compulsory to vote" Enforce it by what means? Legal action = tax dollars = cost. "make it a federal holiday" Must be unpaid or tax dollars are spent to pay Federal employees to not work. So it can be a Holiday, but not a Federal or all non-essential staff get paid holiday leave = tax dollars = cost. "give tax incentives to companies that make voting easier for their employees?" Tax dollars to incentivize = tax dollars = cost. "I'd rather have ANY of that than another tax cut for the rich that gives us the trillion dollar deficits" I agree, but I do not agree that is a result of Capitalism in exclusivity. Opposite taxation structuring has been done in the past to increase economic growth which is also part of a Capitalist system. "did you care about that with the Trump tax cut fiasco? or the wars?" Yes, I have outlined in multiple posts my opinions about trade deficit rationalization using WTO data. "and are fine with the way things are" Incorrect. I stated in this thread that I think certain changes should be made to make voting more accessible. I have actually changed law in my state, contributed to national policy in medical regulation, have worked and succeeded in removing from office elected officials that enacted laws contradictory to their constituents, all things I have stated on these boards before. Those are not actions of someone who is fine with things the way they are. I do not however think those things can happen for free, but I may be wrong. I am open to ideas of how to implement social programs at no cost. "dear f-ing Christ!!!! it's not that fuc king hard! quit being a prick about it" I am trying to explain that you are not offering an equal option for opinion (ranking) for the two subjects you provide. You want one OR the other to be "more important". You are not allowing for both to be unimportant or equally important. That means we pick one OR the other to be "more important" If that's being a prick maybe you should look at who made the rules of choice for this topic. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/27/19 at 04:43:33 if morals were your main concern, you wouldn't have voted for Trump... or Clinton, you probably wouldn't be very political at all That's absolute nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/27/19 at 10:13:22 78585A524F583D0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/27/19 at 10:36:37 let's say you're a government, and you have limited resources, as governments do, considering nothing but SUBJECTIVE importance, (also assuming both have EXCACTLY the same cost) which do you do first, TIME is a resource, you cannot multitask and do both at the same time. work on getting more people involved in expressing their voice in government by participating in voting so you have a more truly representative government or find ways to increase economic activity with the only concern being an increase of profits to the private sector |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by WebsterMark on 03/27/19 at 11:15:51 63405C5B6E5D5B465C5B2F0 wrote:
What would be the point of exploring that question when you're just going to end up misquoting what we say and in the end, type a bunch of 1's and 0's. Answer it yourself. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/27/19 at 20:18:53 "so what if it has a cost, putting capitalism first also has a cost. tax cuts are a cost, etc... " I agree. However I think by putting Capitalism first we can fund social programs more efficiently than implementing social programs that we figure out how to sustain later. Historically creating a program then funding it has been less successful than funding a program first. "as long as it's free to you, you don't care..." I never said that. I said I think social programs are important but should be funded prior to implementation. Going way back to my very first assessment this has been about sustainability: So given both are present Capitalism, at this time, is of more importance specifically to creating a recovering economical horizon that could be sustainable. "you are fine with implementing economic programs at a cost but not social" I never said that. Again I think they should be funded appropriately prior to implementation. "hence you consider money more than other things" I consider funding. I agree funding is money. For instance I would rather fund the SANE (rape-kit) backlog issue instead of perpetuating the debt cycle that caused it in the first place. "well NO SHI T SHERLOCK!!!! THERE IS NO FUC KING REASON TO COMPARE THINGS THAT ARE EQUAL, THEY ARE EQUAL, WHICH DO YOU LIKE, YELLOR OR YELLOW..... WHICH DO YOU LIKE MORE A TRUCK OR A TRUCK.... but that doesn't mean I'm saying they are exclusionary of each other. MORE IMPORTANT doesn't mean the other option doesn't exist, I like my burgers both hot and with ketchup, but being hot is more important than the ketchup" I never said the other option didn't exist, an you are clearly mistaking "Equal" for "Identical". A Truck and a Car can have "Equal" value but are not the same thing. A Yellow Truck and a Red Truck can have "Equal" importance, unless... it is stated one must be more important than the other then its either a Yellow Truck OR a Red Truck. I am saying the choice as I interpret it is to choose one OR the other as more important. You replied by saying: "NOPE" So if NOPE is the answer then I do not think one or the other is important. If "NOPE" isn't the answer then I think Capitalism is more important, at this time, to maintain sustainability of any program since the US debt cycle is increasing, not decreasing. To use your helmet analogy there are no parts mentioned twice, but only one OR the other can take first priority. "I like my burgers both hot and with ketchup, but being hot is more important than the ketchup" So if you have a parameter to choose one as more important one chooses the hot burger, OR, the cold burger. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/27/19 at 20:34:37 "oh, and the legal action could be a fine that offsets the cost to administer it." I find it interesting that you are ok with creating a financial consequence for those that choose not to vote. Would the requirement to choose one of the available candidates be considered Democracy? I have always gone with the "If you don't vote you can't complain" route. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/29/19 at 14:29:01 from another thread but brining it here where it's relevant: "In another thread there is discussion about Capitalism vs. Democracy which as far as I can tell is about spending money to make more money or spending money on US citizens when you get through all the name calling and profanity." the profanity is because you still don't get it.... NO, it's not about "spending money." last time: ignore, if you can, the realistic fact that we need money to run government (cause that's not always the case and even so, there's always plenty of money, to borrow, tax, print whatever...) ignore OUR real problems, OUR real government, this is a HYPOTHETICAL brain exercise, no one is going to hold you to this in any way shape or form in some fantasy world, where all else is equal, the government isn't in debt, everything is offset by totally magical and equitable taxes or other means of income and all spending is balanced and justified. so, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL it's what is more important government Making Profits for you or anyone/thing else or governing from a more representative social contract a community shares. would you rather have your government focus on making profits for private entitiess, you yourself included or would you rather have your government uphold, enforce, encourage, etc... a shared set of values your community(national/local etc..) has agreed to and yes, there are hundreds of varying shades of grey in all of that.... and some choices can do both, and so on and so on, but in general... profit or social integrity maybe another way to look at this, you are setting up a government, do you set it up to maximize capitalism or maximize fair representation of the community being governed for simplicity's sake, use ONE WORD to answer, PICK ONE, democracy or capitalism, SAY NOTHING ELSE but honestly..... I'm so done with this.... you can't bring yourself to make a simple binary choice without blabbing about this or that or whatever excuse you want for not answering |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/29/19 at 16:11:09 I already answered this when you posed it in a similar fashion: "let's put this another way.... which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human or profit " I stated: "Humane equal treatment" Given money has no bearing since its "magical and equitable" in this posing of the question Capitalism has no value, or if looked at another way it has infinite value. In this posing of the question Democracy is the best answer for me. |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by LostArtist on 03/29/19 at 16:37:01 7D5D5F574A5D380 wrote:
yes, which lead to another rephrasing of this question where you answered: "would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality Profitability without Equality." so.....???????? |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Serowbot on 03/29/19 at 16:59:22 I would say equality is a bit much,.... fairness and humanity is a more achievable goal... |
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Title: Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Post by Eegore on 03/29/19 at 17:05:17 "would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality" At that time I interpreted "Profitability" as increased capital, which reinforced my original assessment that sustainability is more important than implementation with no avenue to maintain as failed social programs lead to more problems and more inequality from my point of view. Asking that same question while clarifying that the profitability is null and void through "magical and equitable" means then my answer would be Equality without Profitability. In this case profitability has zero value, or possibly infinite value since: "there's always plenty of money, to borrow, tax, print whatever" |
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