SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Your thoughts...... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1550252301 Message started by raydawg on 02/15/19 at 09:38:21

Title: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/15/19 at 09:38:21 I was watching AOC after Amazon pulled out of NY...... I realize perhaps it not really fair to use her as any sort of "monitor" representing the democrat party, having been elected with about only 4% voter turnout....however, lots of other folks are jumping on board with her, so even weakly elected numbers wise, she is resonating and rising quickly to a position of power and reckoning. I give her high marks on her her politico savvy. The question; Do you think she is the beginning of a new party? We saw sorta the same thing with the Tea Party and the republicans, which never seemed to capitalize on all the resources that brought them into the game. I would venture to say most of that power was generated from a sick and tired perspective of governments handling of things.... The difference here is that AOC is pushing forward a whole new agenda, a real choice, and she appears to not be surrendering to the old stalwarts of power in DC. It is like getting the energy from the "sick and tired" folks, and coupling it to a new approach, based on ideas.....and not beholden to the baggage of folk like Sanders, who have been boosted to a level nationally, like he has never enjoyed before, with this energy. Trump got a lot of this energy of disenfranchised voters, however, the core of his message was to go backwards, to go forward, and that leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those who didn't have such a great past, etc. but it was thee "anti" vote that put him over the top. Which you can then debate, rightly or wrongly, (which I won't) what AOC is promoting, but at least its out there, and proving to be a lightning rod for activity. I see stories in the democrat party saying she is giving 2020 to Trump.... I am not so certain of that, seems based on the scare tactics of the past, more than what appears to be transpiring currently (polling) and the fact the "old guards" of Washington are dying off, abandoning ship, and being exposed to the deeds of their power structuring and mongering..... It has been said, over and over, and over again, a third party can't happen here, I am not so sure about that. This has been simmering on the stove since Ross Perot, but that very power structure has had the resources to squash any real traction as such.   Will 2020 be the year of "another choice" for folks?

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by Eegore on 02/15/19 at 10:34:39  Who is AOC?

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/15/19 at 13:51:08 527270786572170 wrote:  Who is AOC? Oh, you haven't heard of her, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? Below she tweeted this about Amazon: “Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world,” Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweeted Here is a link to this story: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/14/amazon-hq2-flunked-politics-new-york-1176105 She is also the author of the "Green Deal" that she wants to implement. Most of those currently running for the nomination of that party for president have signed on to it as well. Here is the resolution: https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=5731829-Ocasio-Cortez-Green-New-Deal-Resolution Here is the framework: What are the specifics of that framework? The bill calls for a "10-year national mobilizations" toward accomplishing a series of goals that the resolution lays out. Among the most prominent, the deal calls for "meeting 100 percent of the power demand in the United States through clean, renewable, and zero-emission energy sources." The ultimate goal is to stop using fossil fuels entirely, Ocasio-Cortez's office told NPR, as well as to transition away from nuclear energy. "upgrading all existing buildings" in the country for energy efficiency; working with farmers "to eliminate pollution and greenhouse gas emissions ... as much as is technologically feasible" "Overhauling transportation systems" to reduce emissions — including expanding electric car manufacturing, building "charging stations everywhere," and expanding high-speed rail to "a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary"; A guaranteed job "with a family-sustaining wage, adequate family and medical leave, paid vacations and retirement security" for every American; "High-quality health care" for all Americans. Hope that helps  :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/16/19 at 11:26:47 4B58405D584E5E390 wrote: I was watching AOC after Amazon pulled out of NY...... I realize perhaps it not really fair to use her as any sort of "monitor" representing the democrat party, having been elected with about only 4% voter turnout....however, lots of other folks are jumping on board with her, so even weakly elected numbers wise, she is resonating and rising quickly to a position of power and reckoning. I give her high marks on her her politico savvy. The question; Do you think she is the beginning of a new party? Yes, the Democratic Socialist/Just Democrats.  I've only been talking about it for the past year or so... We saw sorta the same thing with the Tea Party and the republicans, which never seemed to capitalize on all the resources that brought them into the game. I would venture to say most of that power was generated from a sick and tired perspective of governments handling of things.... The difference here is that AOC is pushing forward a whole new agenda, a real choice, and she appears to not be surrendering to the old stalwarts of power in DC. Correct - not from either side.  The establishment on both sides needs a good shaking out. It is like getting the energy from the "sick and tired" folks, and coupling it to a new approach, based on ideas.....and not beholden to the baggage of folk like Sanders, who have been boosted to a level nationally, like he has never enjoyed before, with this energy. Correction - she is the direct result of Bernie.  Look at his record.  Look at his "radical" ideas.  His only baggage is that he's never compromised his positions. (no, the DNC killing his campaign doesn't count - but I think they may have learned something) Trump got a lot of this energy of disenfranchised voters, however, the core of his message was to go backwards, to go forward, and that leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those who didn't have such a great past, etc. but it was thee "anti" vote that put him over the top. Which you can then debate, rightly or wrongly, (which I won't) what AOC is promoting, but at least its out there, and proving to be a lightning rod for activity. I see stories in the democrat party saying she is giving 2020 to Trump.... I am not so certain of that, seems based on the scare tactics of the past, more than what appears to be transpiring currently (polling) and the fact the "old guards" of Washington are dying off, abandoning ship, and being exposed to the deeds of their power structuring and mongering..... It has been said, over and over, and over again, a third party can't happen here, I am not so sure about that. This has been simmering on the stove since Ross Perot, but that very power structure has had the resources to squash any real traction as such.   There will not be a viable third party any time soon.  Any real attempt in 2020 will probably give the election to trump (if he's still a candidate) Will 2020 be the year of "another choice" for folks?         Look at the likes of Beto.  We're going to see far more individual contributions to candidates.  This will indeed change the dynamic of not just 2020, but all elections going forward.  The majority of the country are indeed sick and tired.  AOC is the hangover cure to the Country's mistake they made in 2016 (trump).

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/16/19 at 15:17:53 I think it goes back further than Trump and 2016, do you not recall Ross Perot? He was drawing folks from both sides of the spectrum. I still think "they" got to him and scared the crap outta him, the guy just disappeared....he had way more support than Sanders, and more from centralist too, the so called swing vote. Where do you think the old school democrats, that are telling AOC to cool it, go, that are in district that won't carry that progressive agenda? Accountability to constituents, or to a new party power leadership, trying to do both, has caused so much of the problems we are witnessing in politics it seems. Maybe 4 choices.....that would be nice!  ;D

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by oldNslow on 02/16/19 at 17:37:01 "Your thoughts......" OK. I'll play.. No third party. AOC will be the Democratic candidate for President in 2024. By then both major parties ideology will be driven by the far extreme wings of each. There will be no moderate, thoughtful, statesmanlike people in the upper echelons of either party,and the candidate opposing AOC will be just as arrogant and  ignorant as she is. Whichever side looses will refuse to accept the results of the election, and both sides, not without justification, will accuse the other of  massive voter fraud and other malfeasance. The legal wrangling will go on and on with no end in sight, and the sh*t will hit the fan. By 2024 the Balkanization of the country will be pretty much complete, and the ensuing civil war will involve multiple factions rather than just two as in   the affair in the 1860s. The country will not be divided just in two, but rather broken into multiple pieces.  The factions will be racial, ethnic, regional, religious, economic, and coalitions of these different groups. Alliances between factions will be fluid. Today's allies could well be tomorrows enemies for reasons not entirely clear.  Tribal warfare will become the norm. Just like it is, and has been, everywhere else in the world and throughout history. The United States of America will eventually just become a 250 year long anomaly in the history of the human race. Of course there will still  be SOMETHING, inhabited by a few hundred million people - or however many survive the unpleasantness - on the land between sea and  shining sea.  It just  isn't going to be very much like what's here now.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/16/19 at 18:03:20 7D6E766B6E78680F0 wrote: I think it goes back further than Trump and 2016, do you not recall Ross Perot? He was drawing folks from both sides of the spectrum. I still think "they" got to him and scared the crap outta him, the guy just disappeared....he had way more support than Sanders, and more from centralist too, the so called swing vote. Yes, I remember him.  He imploded his own campaign.  Further, it was a different time and he bought massive air time.(bought his way in)  You can speculate that he was more popular than Bernie, but he polled a lot higher against trump than hillary.  As it is today, he's still more popular than the president - but that's not tough to do.. Where do you think the old school democrats, that are telling AOC to cool it, go, that are in district that won't carry that progressive agenda? You see, that's where I think you're wrong.  That progressive agenda polls above 65% - nationwide - and not just among dems, but far more repubs are seeing the light when it comes to Medicare for all, getting money out of politics and LGBT rights. Accountability to constituents, or to a new party power leadership, trying to do both, has caused so much of the problems we are witnessing in politics it seems. There is one job for our representatives.  To represent us - their constituents.  AOC and her ilk are finally doing this.  They are masters of social media and are more transparent than the old guard. (look at what she did this week to uncover lobbyists hiring the homeless to keep their places in line, to name just one) Maybe 4 choices.....that would be nice!  ;D

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/16/19 at 20:34:22 6F51505C4E52533D0 wrote: "Your thoughts......" OK. I'll play.. No third party. AOC will be the Democratic candidate for President in 2024. By then both major parties ideology will be driven by the far extreme wings of each. There will be no moderate, thoughtful, statesmanlike people in the upper echelons of either party,and the candidate opposing AOC will be just as arrogant and  ignorant as she is. Whichever side looses will refuse to accept the results of the election, and both sides, not without justification, will accuse the other of  massive voter fraud and other malfeasance. The legal wrangling will go on and on with no end in sight, and the sh*t will hit the fan. By 2024 the Balkanization of the country will be pretty much complete, and the ensuing civil war will involve multiple factions rather than just two as in   the affair in the 1860s. The country will not be divided just in two, but rather broken into multiple pieces.  The factions will be racial, ethnic, regional, religious, economic, and coalitions of these different groups. Alliances between factions will be fluid. Today's allies could well be tomorrows enemies for reasons not entirely clear.  Tribal warfare will become the norm. Just like it is, and has been, everywhere else in the world and throughout history. The United States of America will eventually just become a 250 year long anomaly in the history of the human race. Of course there will still  be SOMETHING, inhabited by a few hundred million people - or however many survive the unpleasantness - on the land between sea and  shining sea.  It just  isn't going to be very much like what's here now. Ouch...... I think the wild card in trying to project how the future of America will transpire is based too much on politico/social historical data/outcomes.... The unique thing about America is that we are the first nation to not have its system of governing based on adherence to a rigid, unchangeable, system that gets antiquated by time itself..... Mercy, do you think the founding fathers every imagined we would need to include the internet when they considered free speech and expression, and privacy? I think our system is fluid enough to absorb all these new challenges, while adhering to those very pillars of freedom that make America, America.......  :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by oldNslow on 02/17/19 at 08:38:29 Quote: I think our system is fluid enough to absorb all these new challenges, while adhering to those very pillars of freedom that make America, America....... Maybe. But consider this. 2024 is a little less than six years from now. Think back six years. Did you then envision a President the likes of Trump, and the astonishment and outright hatred that his election elicited in at least half the population? The unrelenting campaign of the losing party to find a way to remove him from office by any means necessary, talk of impeachment for non existent  crimes, the endless special council  Russian collusion investigation, suggestions all over social media and from the entertainment industry that someone assassinate him. Or the recent revelation that high ranking officials in the DOG seriously discussed the possibility of a quasi-legal coup to get rid of him? Did you think, six years ago, that a 29 year old ex bartender without a brain in her head would become the spokesperson for the progressive wing of the democrat party? Or that two virulently antisemitic muslim females, who unapologetically express their disdain for everything that made this country what is is, and want to remake it in the image of the culture that they come from, would be elected to the House of Representatives? Six years. Think about what might happen if events continue on their present trajectory. Think about what it might mean in your locale, to your family and friends, if something like the scenario I described actually came to pass. What would you be forced to do? Just thinking about it, even if you don't do anything else, will put you light years ahead of everyone else when it comes time to deal with an unexpected turn of events.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/17/19 at 08:53:19 I hear what you are saying, but nothing happens overnight. This train crash didn't happen ONLY because Trump was driving the train, no, in effect it goes back to the very first part, used to assemble, and to build that train...... And I would lay the blame on EVERYONE expecting goverment to do more than it was ever intended in a free society type governance. I will use as a example: I, as a believer, am instructed to GIVE part of my blessings/wealth to example my faith, and to grow in that faith, because its a good thing to do, a win, win, if you will..... However, the bible instructions were not yet complete on their own, no....we needed a tax right off/credit too. Do you see what I mean?

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by oldNslow on 02/17/19 at 09:29:11 Quote: And I would lay the blame on EVERYONE expecting goverment to do more than it was ever intended in a free society type governance. And when that doesn't happen, and the folks expecting more from government than it can possibly deliver don't get what they have been led to believe they are entitled to, is when the trouble starts. Of course, the people who have dedicated their lives to promoting all those impossible, illusory, expectations, will naturally try to blame those of us who have been saying all along that the house of cards is going to come crashing down. You know, the horrible conservatives like me. ::) Quote: I hear what you are saying, but nothing happens overnight. For the majority of people, who are not ever paying attention, EVERYTHING seems like it happens overnight. And their first response will be a colossal WTF!!!

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/17/19 at 09:56:27 I disagree for the most part, interest in politics seems to be on the rise, which s a good thing, hopefully complacency of "self" as long as I am doing ok, then...... Look, things need to change, when a black man goes to jail for stealing a loaf of bread, yet a senator gets away with murder...... SOMETHING IS WRONG. It won't be easy, but it must be done.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/17/19 at 10:23:44 67595854465A5B350 wrote: Quote: I think our system is fluid enough to absorb all these new challenges, while adhering to those very pillars of freedom that make America, America....... Maybe. But consider this. 2024 is a little less than six years from now. Think back six years. Did you then envision a President the likes of Trump, and the astonishment and outright hatred that his election elicited in at least half the population? LOL - sorry old, I have to interject.  You seem to forget that the likes of the tea party that Ray brought up, were doing the exact same thing to Obama for 8 years.  Calls for impeachment, calling him a Muslim (if that were a bad thing), calling for his birth certificate, etc.  Have a little perspective here. trump has literally profited directly from his presidency while he's sitting in office.  His children have reaped financial rewards while serving in his administration.  He has been to mara lago (read vacation) more than Obama ever did - even though he promised "no golf". The unrelenting campaign of the losing party to find a way to remove him from office by any means necessary, talk of impeachment for non existent  crimes, the endless special council  Russian collusion investigation, suggestions all over social media and from the entertainment industry that someone assassinate him. Or the recent revelation that high ranking officials in the DOG seriously discussed the possibility of a quasi-legal coup to get rid of him? Again, you seem to lack perspective.  How many times was Benghazi used as a battle gry against hillary?  Two solid years of investigation that was, at it's start, completely politically motivated.  However, there were proven secret meeting with russian nationalists in trump tower - for anyone to say it's "baseless" is hypocritical to say the least. Did you think, six years ago, that a 29 year old ex bartender without a brain in her head would become the spokesperson for the progressive wing of the democrat party? Or that two virulently antisemitic muslim females, who unapologetically express their disdain for everything that made this country what is is, and want to remake it in the image of the culture that they come from, would be elected to the House of Representatives? You might want to think that AOC is clueless, but you'd be wrong.  She knows her constituency and there's a reason the likes of the republicans and establishment dems are wailing on and on about her. But then, you probably don't care about Medicare for all, LGBT rights or any type of New Green Deal.  You are simply too old.  Her policies will not help you nor hurt you.  But they will help the future of this country.  She's calling for marginal tax rates we had back in "the good old days" - you know, the 50's.  These are Eisenhower policies.  These are Kennedy policies.  She's in good company. Six years. Think about what might happen if events continue on their present trajectory. Think about what it might mean in your locale, to your family and friends, if something like the scenario I described actually came to pass. What would you be forced to do? Just thinking about it, even if you don't do anything else, will put you light years ahead of everyone else when it comes time to deal with an unexpected turn of events. I look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos.  They will not take money from PACs or dark money.  They will be owned only by their constituents.  What a "crazy" concept, huh?   :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/17/19 at 12:21:10 look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos.  They will not take money from PACs or dark money.  They will be owned only by their constituents. For sure the younger folks are more familiar and adapt at the technologies of the INTERNET/social medias ability to carry their message. I think Obama had folks who really brought it into the strategy. Trump has used it as well. This is why in one of my replies above I brought up the INTERNET and how laws might need to encroach on our freedoms, to protect, that freedom, through privacy invasions..... That will be a very tall hurdle, doubly so if folks are willing to surrender it to powers that use fear as a tactic to gain it.....nothing new here, either. Money out of politics is a pipe dream, money is power, always has been, always will be. Reminds me of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/10/18/the-money-man That is irony on its face! I share your hope, but this gal most likely will succumb much faster to the power of which money can buy, justified in order to promote her agenda, against the use of money, in politics .... ;D Not sure if naïveté will serve us well.  :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by oldNslow on 02/17/19 at 13:18:12 Quote: I look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos. And you might very well get one. But I don't think you are going to like it much if you do. I don't think it's going to be quite what you imagine it to be. ;)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/17/19 at 15:26:44 Ya wanna clean this stuff up pronto? Have a new law, that similar to the reasoning behind "hate crimes" That politicians, and the media, who willfully engages in deceitful and accusatory accusations based on anything other than unmitigated facts, shall be punished and fine to the maximum of the law, as a result of the damage it causes to society. Its always about the money, use it for a beneficial reason to bring about civility. Well?   :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/17/19 at 18:28:56 7B68706D687E6E090 wrote: look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos.  They will not take money from PACs or dark money.  They will be owned only by their constituents. For sure the younger folks are more familiar and adapt at the technologies of the INTERNET/social medias ability to carry their message. I think Obama had folks who really brought it into the strategy. Trump has used it as well. This is why in one of my replies above I brought up the INTERNET and how laws might need to encroach on our freedoms, to protect, that freedom, through privacy invasions..... That will be a very tall hurdle, doubly so if folks are willing to surrender it to powers that use fear as a tactic to gain it.....nothing new here, either. Money out of politics is a pipe dream, money is power, always has been, always will be. Not true.  It hasn't always been this way.  Before the likes of ronnie, Carter and Ford went with the Presidential Campaign Fund, and that was pretty much it. Citizens United is one of the biggest threats to our democracy.  Money is not speech. Reminds me of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/10/18/the-money-man That is irony on its face! How is that irony?  Funding on either side by the likes of soros, or the koch brothers is what's wrong. I share your hope, but this gal most likely will succumb much faster to the power of which money can buy, justified in order to promote her agenda, against the use of money, in politics .... ;D I don't think so.  That's not what got her there.  Just the opposite did.  She didn't have a war chest.  She got there with her constituency. Not sure if naïveté will serve us well.  :) I think you've mistaken her bravato with naivete.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/17/19 at 18:32:10 6F51505C4E52533D0 wrote: Quote: I look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos. And you might very well get one. But I don't think you are going to like it much if you do. I don't think it's going to be quite what you imagine it to be. ;) It'll be far better than what we have now. We Americans should be ashamed of ourselves  - ashamed that we have people going bankrupt and even dying because they can't afford health care.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by eau de sauvage on 02/17/19 at 19:58:15 I think Beto's toothy grin will eventually rule him out of the big chair although he'll certainly be important.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by MShipley on 02/18/19 at 05:41:39 7846474B5945442A0 wrote: Quote: I look forward to a future of AOCs and Betos. And you might very well get one. But I don't think you are going to like it much if you do. I don't think it's going to be quite what you imagine it to be. ;) A lot of wisdom in this thread from Old. A lot of foolishness from others.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/18/19 at 13:41:38 Not sure if naïveté will serve us well.   I think you've mistaken her bravato with naivete.   I think you missed my point. It was not directed at her, but at those who think she won't be influenced by money. Hope that helps clear things up, thanks  :)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/18/19 at 13:42:49 50425655424446230 wrote: I think Beto's toothy grin will eventually rule him out of the big chair although he'll certainly be important. Really.....gee, orange hair didn't stop Trump :-/

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by Serowbot on 02/18/19 at 14:02:28 57445C41445242250 wrote: [quote author=50425655424446230 link=1550252301/15#18 date=1550462295]I think Beto's toothy grin will eventually rule him out of the big chair although he'll certainly be important. Really.....gee, orange hair didn't stop Trump :-/ [/quote] Good point

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by MnSpring on 02/18/19 at 14:08:34 5A444B4A475A415C2E0 wrote: It'll be far better than what we have now. Well then SEND ME YOUR ROBBER !!!!!!!! After all that is what your mentor AOC wants to happen. ‘Everybody get Everything, with out having to work for it’ !

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/18/19 at 14:18:02 7F5C6142405B5C55320 wrote: [quote author=5A444B4A475A415C2E0 link=1550252301/15#17 date=1550457130] It'll be far better than what we have now. Well then SEND ME YOUR ROBBER !!!!!!!! After all that is what your mentor AOC wants to happen. ‘Everybody get Everything, with out having to work for it’ ! [/quote] My "robber"?  I think you need to proofread more mn. But if for some reason you think I'm going to give you my bobber - think again. You seem to think that any socialist view is "giving sh!t away.  It's not.  Educate yourself. You know, we've had a lot of snow in the last week here in Chicago, and all these socialist snow plows have been doing a great job!  (see what I did there?)

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by MnSpring on 02/18/19 at 14:37:23 253B343538253E23510 wrote: You seem to think that any socialist view is "giving sh!t away.  It's not. You're right, It's not, 'giving' something away. It's, 'TAKING', something away.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by T And T Garage on 02/18/19 at 17:32:49 6E4D7053514A4D44230 wrote: [quote author=253B343538253E23510 link=1550252301/15#24 date=1550528282] You seem to think that any socialist view is "giving sh!t away.  It's not. You're right, It's not, 'giving' something away. It's, 'TAKING', something away. [/quote] No, it's not.  You need to find out how this country operates.

Title: Re: Your thoughts...... Post by raydawg on 02/18/19 at 17:38:00 THREAD JACK......THREAD JACK......WARNING, WARNING, WARNING.....  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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