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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> WOW... this is ugly. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1543379764 Message started by raydawg on 11/27/18 at 20:36:04 |
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Title: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/27/18 at 20:36:04 This is very troubling. I won’t bias or taint anyone’s reading of this story, but I would sure appreciate what your general observation, feeling is based upon reading its contents...... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/world/asia/indonesia-lion-air-crash-.amp.html |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by MMRanch on 11/27/18 at 21:33:27 Ray I'll say it like this : That , "Drive by Wire" stuff is a "Step in the Wrong Direction" , to my way of thinking. I can deal with electronic or HDI coil and pick-up , and even mechinical injectors just fine , but , it seems just plain Stupid to let a computer run something your life depends on. Give me my old Savage/S-40 for my "keeper bike" , The rest can come and go. Fact is , I'd had the idea to buy a carb-ed (brainless) Harley before they are all gone. Looking at one on Ebay now :). |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/18 at 06:18:05 From a pilot's prospective, the historic difference between an Airbus and a Boeing airframe was that Airbus is FBW (fly-by-wire) and the Boeing was "direct" hydraulic control. An Airbus pilot makes requests of pitch, roll and yaw to the aircraft systems via traditional inputs (yoke and rudder) and the flight computers decide how to, or even if, the requests can be complied. Boeing pilots always felt as though they were flying the aircraft. No more. MCAS is "augmenting" pilot input and makes it own choices as to trim and throttle settings. From what I have read, Lion Air pilots were not adequately trained on the new MCAS and as a result found themselves fighting with the aircraft computer for control of the aircraft. If a pilot can't safely override the system, why have a flight crew on board? Oh, that is the plan. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 07:54:32 Gary, what I can’t understand at the moment, given all the problems with this aircraft just prior to taking it back up, was why does it seem no communication from the previous flight to crew to their experience with the aircraft, how they got the craft through the false data input and safely onto the ground. This plane has wires, as a back up with the yoke and pedal control. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by verslagen1 on 11/28/18 at 08:23:31 MCAS must have been written by microsoft. To fix the problem, turn off electricity. Yeah, on a fly by wire system... turn off electricity. There must've been a small note somewhere... 'and kiss your a$$ goodbye' |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 08:52:06 This plane should never have left the ground. When you change out ant equipment that provides data to the flight controls without testing its functionality is suicide |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by verslagen1 on 11/28/18 at 12:25:05 This plane should never have left the factory. Profit should never supersede safety. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 12:36:20 What happened to, what I call, the Jesus button? I have never flown an Airbus but have flown a 737. Everything I have flown has a disconnect button on the yoke that allows the pilot to be the only "pilot". When the disconnect is pushed you are in control. Airbus on the other hand will not let the pilot have complete control. When I learned to fly we always had "ATTITUDE PLUS POWER = PERFORMANCE" on the blackboard. Air France 447 pilots apparently were oblivious of this fact and ended up on the bottom of the Atlantic. I am not familiar with the new Boings, maybe they have changed what I thought was part of Boing's core philosophy. The pilot is ultimately in control. :'( |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/18 at 14:36:29 The pilot is ultimately in control. :'( Or he's just a glorified passenger. Tesla, with wings. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 16:44:17 796A7D7C636E686A613E0F0 wrote:
Buddy, the plane moves down the line in assembly regardless of production issues. I watched it with my own eyes, shaking my head, as aircraft advanced toward the door, often out to flight line, with jobs uncompleted, and non conforming issues left hanging, as "milestones" trump everything else..... I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't. I had to finish jobs out there in the weather, out of sequence, because of production faults totally out of my control..... Yes, the $$$$ seems to be the deciding factor as why. :-[ |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 16:48:02 233C3A3D20271626162E3C307B490 wrote:
Not even close Jog. You can never know the variables that come at you once you close the doors and taxi away, never. Sully was a GREAT example re: human factor. IA, will never be "human" you just have to wrap EVERYTHING around that understanding, computers do NOT reasoning with "senses" |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 16:49:10 36372A35616A3C3D580 wrote:
I am not familiar with the new Boings, maybe they have changed what I thought was part of Boing's core philosophy. McDonald Douglas.......nuff said. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 16:51:56 JOG, In today's world maybe but it shouldn't be. A lot of today's pilots can type 45 words a minute but can't fly worth a darn. Computers fail. And then what. Look up Air France 447. That says it all. Three "experienced" pilots who flew their aircraft into the ocean because not one of them could analyze the problem. Any competent flight instructor would have saved the day. That accident shook up the aviation training industry, however not enough has changed because the industry is on course, and financial factors rule. Also, look up the very first Airbus crash. The poor Air France captain was thrown to the dogs for political and of course financial reasons. The bottom line, Airbus aircraft are flown from the ground. Boeing seems to be following on its heels., sadly. One thing is certain Newton's laws of motion are immutable and aircraft no matter how sophisticated still obey those rules. Sorry for the rant but I feel very strongly about this issue as a pilot and instructor. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 17:04:05 Raydawg, I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment about McDonnell Douglas. :'( |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 17:34:10 5E5F425D09025455300 wrote:
MD80 ring a bell? I got to Boeing about the time the old timers were packing it in..... I heard the stuff from them directly, tho most of it flew over my head (no pun intended). Guys who worked up the line, from shop floor, to level 4, 5, management, predicted this new "leadership" from OUTSIDE Washington, would change how aircraft were made. It is sad, Boeing IS...... the coke of soft drinks. When you say airplane, you think of Boeing. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 18:01:27 Ray, Are we talking about the jack screw? |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 18:04:00 Ray, You are also preaching to the choir about Boeing. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/18 at 18:30:25 594A524F4A5C4C2B0 wrote:
Not even close Jog. You can never know the variables that come at you once you close the doors and taxi away, never. Sully was a GREAT example re: human factor. IA, will never be "human" you just have to wrap EVERYTHING around that understanding, computers do NOT reasoning with "senses" [/quote] Okay, maybe I was expecting too much. If the pilot ISN'T ultimately THE THING that is in control He's no more than a passenger. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 19:07:10 JOG, Ask airbus. they definitely will not have an answer. Far too many airbus aircraft have been lost under mysterious circumstances. They are definitely a different animal. Aircraft-wise!!! :'( |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/28/18 at 19:18:37 By the way, anybody never have their computer "crash". I rest my case on this issue. It is beyond my comprehension that manufacturers do not have a fail safe mode where the pilot is flying the aircraft and not under the supervision of the engineers who designed it. I'm fully aware of the fact that no human pilot can fly as well as a computer. BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF. :) |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/28/18 at 20:34:29 5455485703085E5F3A0 wrote:
Yep..... When you have the opinion that you are infallible, coupled that with engineering and management, it’s a fatal attraction between two massive egos. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by Dave on 11/29/18 at 05:43:56 3938253A6E653332570 wrote:
I'm with Norm on this one. Nearly every week my phone, computer, printer, scanner or server suffers some little issue that stops the normal flow of work. Sometimes it only takes a "re-boot" to get things back on track - don't suppose a reboot is possible while in flight....or on the takeoff or landing. I am pretty sure I never will be the pilot on one of these big rigs - but do I want to be a passenger? :o |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/18 at 05:57:05 I wanted to adjust the idle on the car. Hunted the throttle cable. Nope. It's electronic. I don't like That. I sure don't like an airplane that doesn't have mechanical connections between the yoke and ailerons, elevator and rudder. Redundancy bedammed. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/29/18 at 08:34:14 Look guys, Boeing is on the cutting edge of technology...... How to utilize it, to maximize profit. The companies goal is NOT, to employ MORE people, but less, under the popular and current reasoning of environmentalism. Where less, is more...... A machine can do, what people do, for way less, WITHOUT all the other necessities a human needs in order to be productive. For example: Transportation to/from work, and a place to park. Restrooms, and other considerations built into the manufacturing facilities. Housing, and all of its supporting infrastructure to make living possible, etc. All of this cost the municipalities revenue, WHICH, they gather through taxes on businesses, etc. A machine.....very little. No healthcare, vacations, sick days, working hours restrictions, attitudes.....etc. I wonder if Henry Ford ever even considered, way back when he automatized his thinking........ That man, under his own guise, held his destiny, and demise, within the grip of his own mortality. Think of it like this, perhaps it frames the perplexity of morality, in a more obvious conflict within resolutions/riddles, of reasoning, which often provides motivation. Man has 3 basic instincts. Self-Preservation. Sexual Instinct. Social Instinct. Look at all 3. To achieve those and satisfy those instincts, you need a stable enviroment upon which to live. Man, as he "evolves" via reasoning, perceives threats upon his "instincts". So, he builds weapons to defend himself, which CAN"T, in all reality, because what he did, in effect, just created a BIGGER threat, to his instincts, in the hands of others..... Do you see what I am trying to connect? Man's greatest asset is his heart, when he uses it to help others, FIRST. I know it seems extremely simplistic, but that is only because man has spent untold energy on scripting a different resolution to achieving satisfaction with our instincts. Again, you think its folly to believe man will be implanted with a chip, I think your instincts are jaded. Machines will want humans to be like them, just like all the infighting and division, we are witnessing in the world today, based on (a) promoted beliefs.... Except machines will have no heart, no soul, no morality, but one goal, absolutely..... When a "plane crash" and the lives lost, are nothing more than research fodder, collateral damage, at advancing toward a goal that will make our world more perfect..... We have already enter that air space, sadly :-[ I invite you to correct my thinking, if you can...... |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/29/18 at 08:36:17 233C3A3D20271626162E3C307B490 wrote:
They DO Jog..... Even the 787 has wires ( minimal ) to maintain flight under loss of automated flight input. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by jcstokes on 11/29/18 at 10:04:21 How many remeber reading "Fail Safe" by Eugene Burdick and Harvey Wheeler? |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/18 at 11:15:36 283B233E3B2D3D5A0 wrote:
They DO Jog..... Even the 787 has wires ( minimal ) to maintain flight under loss of automated flight input. [/quote] So if they are strong enough to fight the control system, MAYBE they live? No Emergency Off button so a computer maintains control, even though the Pilots are trying to wrest control away from it? Is that what is happening? |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/29/18 at 14:58:25 Is that what is happening? Yes, and no. You have to shut off the main breaker, not just a system. The flight deck is littered with switches, and in duplicity for each pilot. I would guess over 90% of them are NEVER touched, ever. The E deck is even more boggling, AND cluttered, not a place you would want to have to search to find a problem/issue. It is not readily accessible from the flight deck, you have to go through a hatch in the floor on most aircraft..... However, a pilot would be lost in there anyway :o Use to be the job of a "flight engineer" but that job was eliminated decades ago in commercial flight, for PROFIT concerns. :-/ Progress my boy, progress...... Just a little observation to how progress has become our norm.... I ask, "Who carries enough cash with them anymore, daily, to ascertain they can meet any need, if they may arise?" Heck, you carry a chipped card, right? ;D |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/18 at 17:35:58 If that was an answer, I didn't get it. Yes No. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/30/18 at 08:14:55 2D3234332E2918281820323E75470 wrote:
Sorry...... I thought I did :-[ In this particular event, it seems they didn't know how to disarm the automation in total, only partially..... Sorta like they rebooted their computer, it cleared the immediate problem, but didn't clear the hard-drive of the virus, so the computer would eventually default back to why you rebooted it in the first place. The computer kept taking control of the aircraft, they wrested with it, rebooted, etc..... Rumor at Boeing was always about in the future aircraft would be pilot less, all flown remotely through various programs. Here is how they think Jog, AND, this aircraft is already in design. One of the BIGGEST cost to building a air frame is structure limits, or limitations...... The lighter the aircraft, in weight, the easy it is to get airborne, fly, build, maintain, etc.... Different external, and internal forces are always working against the integrity of the "tube" that is pressurized for passenger travel. You have to distribute these forces equally across the whole fuselage or you will expose it to premature fatigue and failure.... You with me? Well because the market is competitive in nature, to attract fliers, they put in windows, for the passengers consideration to enjoy the view aloft, etc. That window is in effect, is a breach, on "tube" and those forces I talked about now require even more distribution equally which now requires more "metal structure" to carry that breach..... Imagine a "header" that spans a room you want opened, no "wall", or 2x4 wall stud to carry the vertical load, right. If the span is greater than what "wood" can carry, you go with I-beam, HEAVY, yes. Well, that is sorta like what it takes to accommodate a window in a fuselage. So, you prolly have guessed by now, a commercial aircraft for passenger flight WITHOUT windows is coming soon. In effect, a freighter with passengers as cargo. You will have faux windows, that is how stupid they think folks are ;) Sorta like folk believing the nonsense politicians utter, eh ;D |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by Dave on 11/30/18 at 08:32:57 So....how would the TSA act if I brought a parachute as my "carry on luggage"? :-? Henry Ford. I believe he automated the assembly line as much as was technically possible for that era. They had people to run and calibrate the machines as necessary. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by raydawg on 11/30/18 at 09:18:07 5C676A7D6C607B7D666E637C0F0 wrote:
Absolutely Dave..... He was a revolutionary influence, that is my point. Incrementalism until it become the norm, then its pushed further down that path under the guise of progress. Let me link those two words, and pay attention to your first thoughts.... Progressive Revolution. Is it what it is, or what we want it to be/mean? Ponder its vast utilization, implication, as a means to direct societal movement. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/18 at 11:26:31 At the gas station there is a red button on the wall. Emergency Shutoff... Considering the obvious fact that electronic stuff Can fail, it seems reasonable to allow the pilot easy and immediate relief from a wrestling match with Suicidal Hal. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by norm92de on 11/30/18 at 16:53:05 Justin, That used to be true, but it is not quite true any more. It was never true on an Airbus. The very first crash of an Airbus was, in my opinion, caused by the designers. The poor Air France captain who was demonstrating the aircraft tried to "fly" the aircraft just like he had always done. However, the engineers had other ideas and the aircraft ended up crashing into the trees at the end of the runway in spite of the fact that he added power in plenty of time to execute a flyby type of go around. Some members of the press were killed. Anyway, he ended up being blamed and it was the end of his career. Big money ruled. :'( |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by MMRanch on 11/30/18 at 22:26:00 OK , So , I go to the car dealer and pick out a new car. Then ask the sales person "Wait a minute, is this one of those Drive-by-wire cars" ? Or New Bike ! Should it hurt the sales person's feelings when I say " well I don't want it then" ? Maybe , I'll just keep my old truck ? and stay OFF the Airplane's |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/18 at 23:11:57 I won't get on a plane. I seriously enjoy flying, but I'm not getting abused by the tsa to get on a plane. I'd go to jail for bashing someone in the face. |
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Title: Re: WOW... this is ugly. Post by jcstokes on 12/01/18 at 09:53:37 Engineers will always push limits, I think of the early Comet crashes and didn't one of the piston engined Douglas aircraft have some fuel issue which caused planes to catch fire? Having said that, I would prefer an older well established type of aircraft. |
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