|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in 3rd /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1535467016 Message started by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 07:36:55 |
|
Title: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in 3rd Post by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 07:36:55 I'm at a crossroads with my savage at moment [ch128557] 93, stock exhaust + air pod + currently running 155main 55 pilot + raptor PC Recently had valves checked+ adjusted 3 weeks ago. Bike seemed to run great for those 3 weeks...was riding daily. Then my last few rides I was lacking power & the bike would stay at a high idle when gearing down OR anytime I pulled the clutch in. At first I thought was maybe my throttle was getting stuck but I've thoroughly taken this apart and cleaned it, everything looks & feels good! Bike still giving me the same issue when I went for a test ride and if I tap the carb it'll settle down again...or if I go full throttle (it'll give off some black smoke) but as soon as I start riding, it hangs at high idle again. This morning I changed the oil, and filter (yes it smelled like gas so I assume something is getting stuck open?) , Changed my sparkplug and took apart the carb, thoroughly cleaned that all up & then reassembled the bike....went on test ride & no changes :( I recently replaced the float needle + seat & the choke & my jets are brand new as well. My air adjustment screw doesn't seem to be working (turned all the way in doesn't kill the bike) so I'm wondering if this is my issue or would it be my needle slide getting stuck?? Needle slide is expensive so I'm worried to jump on replacing that. Or would this be an outcome of my valves needing to be readjusted again? (Note, the person who did my valves did not check the header bolts, as someone told me this is an important thing to do on the savage) I do the work myself and I still consider myself a newbie at this bike stuff. Any advice would be awesome! |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by GOF on 08/28/18 at 07:43:07 I would take another look at what you have done in the carb. Is everything installed and adjusted properly? |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 07:56:50 As far as I can tell it's adjusted properly....it's about the 8th time I've dug into this carb, it worked rounds 1-6 (haha) so I don't think I'm missing anything....but maybe I am? |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by verslagen1 on 08/28/18 at 08:19:42 072537370C2B312021440 wrote:
Tapping the side of the carb and dropping the idle speed makes me think you have a sticking slide. Mine was getting stuck at a low position and wasn't resolved until I added fuel injector treatment to the tank. Otherwise it's constantly getting stuck. Your idle speed may be too high for testing. Lower it for the adjustment, then return it to 1000 to 1100 rpm after. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by ohiomoto on 08/28/18 at 08:31:11 Your slide is most certainly getting stuck. Is it showing any wear at all? I've found that even when they feel good on the bench, they might be hanging up. On the bench, the slide had no air flow passing through the venturi. When the engine is running, it's being wedged forward by air flow. I replaced mine and it was the best $120 I've spent. Saved me a lot of mucking around. Also, 155/55 jetting is really rich IMO. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/28/18 at 09:28:38 While you're checking things... A run away idle that settles down with throttle is a symptom of a vacuum leak. Take a good look at the boot between the carb and the head. Your are looking for cracks, an air gap or other problems. If you don't see anything, with the bike doing its run-away idle thing, spray the carb boot with carb cleaner and see if the idle (briefly) returns to normal. That's the tell-tail sign of a vacuum leak. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/28/18 at 12:59:28 Do you have a Raptor petcock/ (if not I'd get one)extra fuel could be flowing down the vacuum line . Did you reassemble the carb properly? the slide could well be hanging up , but why? 1) The slide and bore it goes into need to be perfectly clean (don't even touch them on reassembly- and never try to use any lubricant ). 2) Their are two vacuum ports in the bottom of the side ( two small holes) which you should be able to see light through , they can be plugged by placing the brass plate that holds the needle in back ward , and the plate has a dimple near the needle that must protrude downward when reassembled . Either of of these could cause the slide to malfunction. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 13:33:39 2A293C2529267C70480 wrote:
Yes I do have the Raptor PC. I made sure every hole/port had air coming through before reassembly. I didn't take apart the needle from the slide-its the only part of the carb I didn't take apart... so it's the same as when the bike was in running condition. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 13:37:58 Ok.... definitely seems like it's my slide getting hung up. [ch128556] Going to try out a few things that y'all suggested and see where it takes me....which will probably be to the dealership for a new slide hahaha |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/28/18 at 14:52:28 Is your pod air filter new? some of these have rubber mounting flanges that have been known to block air passages in the throat of the carb ,which will also inhibit slide movement. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/28/18 at 15:20:13 Fairly new, but I always cut out a space in the flange/rubber and line it up with the vent on the carb! :) |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/28/18 at 15:48:09 The I assume your talking about the slot at the top (12 O'CLOCK ) ,but If you have to cut a relief for that ,you may be forgetting the small air jet opening at 5 O'clock , that supplies air to the idle jet circuit . If this is also plugged it will vastly increase the fuel flow through the pilot jet (increasing idle speed and may delay the slide dropping) .I would try removing the air filter just to check if your problem subsides. I would also state that that your choice of jets seems a bit outrageous for a stock bike even at your elevation. Your jets may be trying to over compensate for the fact that you haven't done the spacer mod, and you NEED to!( 2- # 4 steel washers for your 217 ft. elevation) I would do that first and try to reduce jet sizes ,as they may be to large running a stock muffler. Flow needs to be balanced ,the motor can only breath in what it can exhaust -the stock muffler is fairly restrictive, even if your cone filter isn't. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/29/18 at 08:10:48 5E5D48515D5208043C0 wrote:
Ok thanks so much for the advice and I shall take it! Working on it this afternoon [ch127867]. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by DragBikeMike on 08/29/18 at 16:59:40 Air controls the idle speed. If your throttle plate is fully closed and the idle speed is running away, the engine is getting additional air from somewhere. In addition, your jets are too large for a stock engine. So now you have additional air along with additional fuel. Wham! Runaway idle. The slide shouldn't make the bike idle any faster since the throttle plate is what controls air flow. Make very sure your throttle plate is closing. I'm with Gary in NJ, sound like an air leak to me. Most likely the rubber manifold. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/29/18 at 20:47:41 DBM the throttle plate is never fully closed, it is cracked open even at idle (if you don't think so back your idle speed screw out all the way and watch your bike die) , and it provides added air when released by virtue of the increased vacuum it causes down stream and therefore increased air velocity through the opening . At the same time the fuel ratio is going lean because the spacer mod has not been done( bike is only 200ft above sea level) ,this may well tend to increase rather than slow rpm ( a slightly lean condition produces more power) how many Savages will run at sea level with the stock spacer? how many have had intake air leaks? |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/30/18 at 04:43:16 4546534A4649131F270 wrote:
The spacer mod is done. And there doesn't seem to be an air leak at the intake manifold. It's worth noting that the throttle rises when the clutch is pulled in/when I go to downshift. It's almost as if it gets hung up in 3rd or 4th. And yes, the throttle plate closes 99% of the way, with a slight opening left. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/30/18 at 06:45:08 062436360D2A302120450 wrote:
The carb knows nothing of gear selection. The only association between the two is the resulting throttle input. If the rpm is changing when the clutch is pulled, it suggests that there is problem with the clutch causing excessive drag on the drivetrain. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/30/18 at 07:27:55 22282C262D242029777175450 wrote:
The carb knows nothing of gear selection. The only association between the two is the resulting throttle input. If the rpm is changing when the clutch is pulled, it suggests that there is problem with the clutch causing excessive drag on the drivetrain. [/quote] Silly question maybe, but would clutch issues be linked to being a problem with my tensioner??? I checked my tensioner a few months ago, and it seemed ok. And how would I go about checking to see if the clutch is my main problem? |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by ohiomoto on 08/30/18 at 08:31:34 I wouldn't be concerned with the clutch and its effects on the idle unless it persists after the high idle is resolved. I agree that air leaks are a possibility, but I it's more likely that is has something to do with the carb based on the information provided in the OP. Also, what else was touched, mucked with or changed recently? 1) The valves were adjusted. A overly tight valve lash is one of the worse things for a valve train and it only gets worse as an engine gets hot and the head expands. I can cause a lack of power and a hanging idle. It also makes an engine run very lean. I'm not sure why a tight valve lash would run well for a few weeks before showing symptoms and your "tapping" of the carb would not affect valve lash. Unless the drop in idle speed just coincidently coincided with the timing of the act. Either way, you want to be sure this isn't a problem. You may want to have your mechanic make sure nothing bad is happening up there. 2) You also change a needle and seat. Did you use OEM or an aftermarket kit? You think you smelled gas in your oil?? Maybe the float is set too high or the valve is not seating properly? This would provide the engine with more fuel than it needs at idle. Did tapping the carb seat the float needle??? If so maybe it's not the slide at all. 3) You suspected the slide was sticking and had that apart. Maybe it is, but why now all the sudden? Stay focused on the recent and relevant events. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/30/18 at 09:50:44 The needle +seat were from the Suzuki dealership, so I'm assuming OEM. I don't have a mechanic, a friend helped with the valves and I basically do everything else myself, or I've been trying to (with the help of this forum!!!) I did measure the float level, it seemed a little higher than what is recommended on here (1-1.12" I believe) , do you adjust this by moving the little tab on the float? I also read that you can wash the slide & tev diaphragm with a light dish soap. Is it beneficial for me to try this? Both diaphragms seem in good condition. I'll rebuild and clean the carb tonight, put in smaller jets & follow the other tips given...see where I end up! |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/30/18 at 10:56:03 If there is any pitting on the slide, or in the carb body where the slide...er...slides, then those parts must be replaced. If you have a pair of calipers, then check the diameter of the new needle versus the old - or just check that the needle freely moves up and down in the needle valve without hanging up. BTW, a bent needle will cause all sorts of problems...so roll it on a flat surface to ensure it's not bent. While you're at it, check the condition of the needle valve seat, they do wear out. The float height is changed via force. Be careful when moving the carb around without the bowl attached, the float pin easily falls out and always rolls where you can't find it. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/30/18 at 21:22:33 The spacer mod is done ?-what did you do? Did you readjust the fuel mix screw? how many turns out from closed is it? If the throttle plate is 99% closed and the mix screw is about only one turn out ,the 55 pilot jet is to large, you 'll need to go back to the 52.5(stock pilot jet) and a main jet no larger than a 150 (and again retune the mix screw.)The black soot on your sparkplug is from running way to rich , that's telling you the jets you have now are to large. Did you try running the bike minus the cone filter? Your shifting the bike from first to third , the clutch must be working,it has nothing to do with your problem. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/31/18 at 06:11:59 I did the spacer mod back in the spring, switched the white washer with 3 little metal washers that came with my jetset from the fellow on here! My air/fuel mixture screw didnt work, as I mentioned a few times. I just replaced it this morning, along with a full carb clean & rebuild. Put in a 50 pilot and 150main. These are the jet sizes I had in when it was running well and I wasn't getting a carbon fouled plug. I went to higher jets because people kept telling me to do so. As a woman in the moto world, im often told I'm wrong....so I try othersr advice and see how it goes. I understand that black soot is a carbon fouled plug & running rich...I totally get that....my issue is figuring out how to STOP that. The bike was running rich when I bought it, with stock jets. Once I did the Raptor PC & spacer mod & changed jet sizes, it was running well & I did a 2000+kms trip...then my bike died in an intersection & wouldn't start again.....got my valves done, rebuilt my carb & the float needle was really worn so I replaced that with a OEM needle+seat from the dealership. Now the only parts I haven't changed in my Carb is the slide w/diaphragm & the TEV diaphragm & my jet needle. I have a new jet needle on its way to me. Put the bike together this morning, went for a test ride & it DOES run better but then started to get hung up & high idle again....right away I jumped off the back-literally LIGHTLY tapped the float bowl with the rubber end of a screw driver ...and the idle immediately went down. Didn't even have to tap it hard. So something is getting hung up. My float needle is only 3 weeks old, seems to moves freely in the seat.....think it's half a shot putting the old float needle back in & see what happens cuz I didn't have a high idle hang prior to changing it. Maybe a combo of testing the old seat + new needle and then old needle in new seat? |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/31/18 at 09:01:13 Remove one washer from the needle and see if that clears the problem. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/31/18 at 10:18:36 I would not interchange the float valve needle and seat, they come as a set. I'd stay with the new set . You may want to revisit setting the float valve height ( the height is the distance between the upper body and the lowest part of the float ,and yes it 's adjusted by bending the small tang on the float .BUT the measurement given does not include the thickness of bowl gasket ,if it stays in place in the carb body you'll need to slightly decrease the measurement. It would seem that the slide is still hanging up . when you reassemble ,you need to be sure ,that the side diaphragm tongue (lip) is in the recess,( the diaphragm only goes in one position)and that you push the outer built up edge into the groove all the way around the outside edge, and that the spring is centered in the top cap. when you have the carb reassembled ,but before mounting to the bike,you should be able to put your finger in the throat of the carb and push up slowly on the slide,feel if it hangs up and release it and it should drop smoothly. If it doesn't , you could remove the needle and repeat, this would at least tell you if the problem is the slide or a bent needle jet. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/31/18 at 10:48:09 3330253C303F6569510 wrote:
It for sure moves freely up & down on the bench. I did it a dozen times or so while watching to see if it got hung out, or stuck or acted weird.....pushed slide up, let it fall down by itself no problems....have the carb off now & just did the same thing, no hang ups on the slide :/ Float measures, without the gasket, about 1.30", so it's bit high I think???? Paranoid I'll break that brass tab but trying to move it but I guess that's what's gotta happen! |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 08/31/18 at 14:37:58 well if that's the case , your problem is the float ,not the slide. if tapping lightly on the carb drops the fast idle the float is hanging up for some reason |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 08/31/18 at 16:03:09 So this round I moved the clip one up on the jet needle (figured ii could at least lean it out this way), left the 3 metal washers, cleaned everything up...Took the bike for a 30min test ride, and no hanging idol. I haven't touched the jet needle adjustment since May-so I find this weird. Air/fuel adjustment is set to 1 full turn out. Bike is a little boggy in 1st, has more "light little back fires" than I'm used to, but it IS running better + no idle hang. Kept the 50pilot/150 main in as well. Think I'm getting somewhere finally!!!! Attempting a little 500kms trip this weekend, see how far I get [ch129310] |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by zipidachimp on 09/02/18 at 23:02:48 +1 for too large jets ! Try 52.5/150 ps: former Ottawan, a long time ago! Cheers! 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 09/03/18 at 05:43:24 6E7D647D7075777C7D7964140 wrote:
I was running 50/150 and then 120kms into my trip, the bike died. Changed the spark plug (still carbon fouled) and put in the smallest pilot jet I had, which was a 47.5 I believe. Ran better the next 300kms & didn't die at all! Air/fuel mixture screw isnt working, just bought a new one and it makes no difference how many turns in or out. So this is probably my main problem I would think. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 09/03/18 at 16:57:24 When you changed the mix screw, did you check the spring ,washer and O-ring that's placed on it ,some times the O-ring can be damaged by age. If you slow the idle down so the bike is barely running be for adjusting the mix screw, you should notice the change in rpm. the only other thing I know of that could cause you to run rich and foul the plug, besides the float level, is if the brass washer is not in place between the needle jet and the main jet. This washer holds the needle jet (cylinder) up fully in the carb body , if it's missing the jet will fall away from the body and allow extra unmetered fuel to flow around it . You should start keeping tract of your mileage, If your mileage is around 50 that's normal for the jets your now using, if it's low 40's, your plug is still dirty,your getting extra fuel from somewhere and it has to be the needle jet /jet needle as the pilot jet only controls fuel at idle , and the main jet doesn't come into play until you reach 3/4 to W.O.T. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 09/03/18 at 18:55:44 46455049454A101C240 wrote:
The mixture screw is completely new...new screw, spring, washer & oring. When I turn it all the way in, nothing happens to the bike...start turning out...nothing happens. I do have that brass washer in place between the main jet & needle jet, but it does look old-its been cleaned but still shows wear. I have a new needle jet on its way to me & will change that asap. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 09/03/18 at 21:49:20 You have to slow the idle speed down (close the throttle by using the knurled screw on the left side of the carb ) to allow you to hear the change in rpm when adjusting the mix screw. if you screw the mix screw all the way in the bike may not stall, the idle passage splits as it enters the carb ,and the mix screw only blocks one passage , the other remains open and may supply enough fuel to keep the motor running.( the mix screw doesn't turn off the fuel ,it more a fine adjustment) When you last did the needle spacer ,you said that you moved the clip on the needle ,this may have been a mistake , using the washers should have been enough ,moving the clip may have sent to much fuel and could be the reason your sparkplug is still covered in soot(unburned fuel) Your trying to compensate by using a 47.5 pilot jet (you should be able to run the stock 52.5) the real problem I believe is the needle jet is to high. when your on the road your at a partial throttle setting ,above idle , and below 3/4 to full throttle , your speed is controlled by the needle jet /jet needle,(the main source of your fuel) and that's your problem. If you move the needle clip back to it's stock position and the plug stops sooting , but you develop a mid range surging it won't be because of the needle , it will be because your pilot jet is now to small.The reason you close the mix screw in and hear no difference in rpm is because the pilot jet is so small the throttle plate is open farther than normal to allow normal idle speed ,and this lifts the needle giving the carb the extra fuel it needs to idle ,closing the mix screw only cuts off a part of the small amount of fuel coming from the very small pilot jet and doesn't do much to effect the rpm.(you can't hear the difference) |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Castheandra on 09/04/18 at 05:10:27 4340554C404F1519210 wrote:
I appreciate your advice & help but I don't think you're actually reading what I'm writing. I 100% understand that the idle needs to be slowed down in order to hear the change when turning the air mixture screw. It has been said endlessly and you are just assuming that I'm not doing it this way. I have done this. There was no change. So I bought a new screw set for it. Still no change. So, as suggested by someone on this thread- I moved the clip one up, to try and lean out a bit. This worked. So I left it. Bike ran well for 150kms. Then dies in the forest. It was suggested to me, by a savage owner, that I should try my smallest jet because the air mixture screw is not working. I dont know how else to say it ...BUT the screw does not work. Doesn't matter how slow I out my idle, it.does.not work. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/04/18 at 07:55:36 Castheandra When you turn the air screw in (clockwise), does it "seat" or tighten? If it doesn't seat your screw could be stripped and this could be a source of an airleak. |
|
Title: Re: Engine stuck at high idle/sounds fine once in Post by batman on 09/05/18 at 16:13:38 I 've come to the conclusion after watching us go up -down - and all around with the carb ,that the carb isn't the problem.(but the present jets are not good) I would go into detail ,but you'd probably think I was not trusting your ability. (untrue) so I'll simply say this. Get rid of the stock muffler! It's 25 years old ! You took a 2000Km trip and then the bike stopped running .carbs conditions don't change that quick unless you have plugged jets ,but old rusted internals in the muffler can. do yourself a favor . get a Dyna muffler and go about retuning your carb. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |