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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> if its free, its pretty useless..... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1533746702 Message started by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 09:45:02 |
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Title: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 09:45:02 Ever notice when folks get free stuff, they don't take care of it? I recall, as a contractor in California, how neighborhoods sank into despair, as HUD moved more folks in. The problem was, is that in these neighborhoods, lots of "first time buyers" had worked, saved, and were able to get into the game, only to watch their hard work dissipate, as the area eroded into crime and ugliness. Landscape was neglected, cars just left broken down, no pride of owning a home, etc. It was often folks on fixed incomes too, who got caught in this program. Hoping to "cash out" in retirement, they lost, as they put much of their future into believing they could profit at the end. I saw this over, and over again, as I provided plumbing services in Southern California.... Service companies did not want to work in these neighborhoods, it wasn't safe, and prices reflected the risk. So not only was your home worth less, it cost more to maintain it, as well, because of the blight. If you recall, I think insurance companies got called out on this, charging folks within that neighborhood more premiums, for the same coverage, just a few miles away, I think it was called "red lining." I noticed too, many on goverment supplied healthcare, were fat, smokers, and appeared to live a lifestyle that cared not, about the financial cost of living as such..... I have to believe its because they didn't pay any (financial) burdens..... Of course, this was not the same in every case, but the numbers were substantial. If the goverment is going to provide programs, then need to try and ensure they do good, not further the problem, by creating more dependency, and fostering a lifestyle that hurts EVERYONE. Thinking if only the government will provide a national healthcare system, and the problem is fixed, really is shortsighted, and a disservice, just like HUD was, for so many reasons. Some type of accountability, and goal, of weaning folks off of programs, should be a very important component to any support, or subsidies..... For example: A otherwise healthy individual is on welfare. They are obese, and that is the "excuse" as to why thy can't work, and of their diabetes..... We should start with a base line support structure, and then as they "improve" on the things they CAN, like losing weight, exercise, stop smoking, drinking, better eating habits, etc..... REWARD them with MORE support, like positive affirmation. I believe if even 10% of the recipients accessed this chance, the savings would prove themselves out, and we would soon have a healthy crop of independent folks who would be a asset, instead of a liability, to society. The AA program is a fine example how folks turn their lives around. It eventually is up to each one of us to realize our own worth, in life. But most of us, a VAST majority, need help, and support, from others, in achieving it.... Be it a sponsor in AA, or a caring teacher, in public school. I saw this the other day..... It blew me away. I hope you find the value in it too. Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become actions. Watch your actions, they become your habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. Watch your character........ It becomes your destiny. Peace all, dawg out :) |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/08/18 at 11:10:53 I like that, yeah the biggest problem with our "welfare" is that it doesn't do enough to encourage personal improvement and responsibility, it just punishes... |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 11:26:43 1B3824231625233E2423570 wrote:
Thank you :) |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by MnSpring on 08/08/18 at 12:29:42 5F7C60675261677A6067130 wrote:
That's probably the most Logical thing you have posted here. Yet be careful, ’someone’ may say: “Well That’s Racist” ! |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/08/18 at 14:29:36 "Thinking if only the government will provide a national healthcare system, and the problem is fixed, really is shortsighted, and a disservice, just like HUD was, for so many reasons." What you discuss is part of the problem. Another major issue with healthcare is the lack of imminence for many of the health problems that arise and then become financial burden. Heart disease for a 20 year old is not imminent enough, in most cases, to make them want to take care of their cardiovascular system. It's hard enough to get them to wear a helmet, things like arthritis just aren't in the forefront. The lack of desire to be healthier in these cases aren't from the same psychological position as people staying on welfare because it pays more than a job in their area. Its complacency, but for two totally different reasons. I believe including imminence assessment by age and other factors into the psychological components of any empowering-based healthcare process would improve the program. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 14:49:51 Could you please elaborate on that. Not sure exactly what you mean. BTW, I believe Michele Obama was maybe thinking along these lines when she “tried” to take nutrition to a national interest. However, perhaps it never got traction because of partisan and “fast food” opposition....??? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/08/18 at 16:08:08 The less responsibility for their own futures people experience, the less likely they are to be responsible in their behaviors. ven If Safety ... https://www.medicaldaily.com/helmet-risk-taking-370992 Wearing a helmet is likely to increase our sensation-seeking and risk-taking, ... Increases Risk-Taking, Even If Safety Gear ... safety equipment might ... Wearing a Bicycle Helmet Can Increase Risk Taking and ... journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797615620784 Humans adapt their risk-taking behavior on the basis of perceptions of safety; this risk-compensation phenomenon is typified by people taking increased risks when using protective equipment. Risk compensation - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation Risk compensation is a theory which suggests ... oppose the requirement of safety equipment on trains ... to increased perceived danger by taking ... Overview · Examples RISK TAKING - UNITED Equipment Dealers Association https://www.omeda.org/safety/safetyvault/SMNS_Risk Taking.htm A safety meeting in a nutshell. RISK TAKING. Note to the Discussion Leader: This safety talk is designed to increase employees' awareness of the potential dangers involved with risk taking, and to determine why we take these risks. Helmet wearing increases risk taking and sensation seeking ... www.bath.ac.uk/research/news/2016/01/25/helmet-wearing-risk-taking Helmet wearing increases risk taking and sensation seeking. Could helmet wearing increase risk taking and ... consequences of safety equipment in hazardous ... |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/08/18 at 17:03:48 "Could you please elaborate on that. Not sure exactly what you mean." Universal healthcare could be a problem in the same capacity that HUD has. Free homes = people don't take care of them. Free healthcare = people don't take care of themselves. Also people don't take care of themselves because many health problems are so far away in time by their perspective. Free healthcare = people still don't care about health risks that are 40 years away. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/08/18 at 17:50:00 And? What is the answer? Not many people get out of here alive.. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 18:46:09 725250584552370 wrote:
OK, gotcha..... For some reason I thought you were talking about risk, and exposure, with the younger population, and it needed to be factored in, when deciding cost, or allowances, of coverage. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/08/18 at 19:53:19 No I was just using youth as an example. As in younger people don't even wear helmets, and concussion risk is very imminent. When looking 30 - 40 years ahead its going to be even harder. So free healthcare has the HUD style factor, and also the "I will worry about it later" factor. Homes not so much, they were never going to take care of that free home from day one. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/08/18 at 19:58:53 "And? What is the answer? Not many people get out of here alive.. " I don't believe there is any one answer for healthcare anywhere, but I do not think an empowering based approach, as presented in the original post, will address the fact that many people just don't care about their health until it starts failing. Factoring that part will be part education and part just creating the budget to handle the future mandatory treatment that universal healthcare would need to take care of. People typically don't care about arthritis or taking steps to prevent it prior to showing any symptoms, and if that's not factored into the budget then there wont be money to provide treatment. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/08/18 at 20:21:47 Just because you can Envision a wonderful world That doesn't mean it's possible to change human nature. When you see people starting on the term paper the day it was assigned, then you can start to hope people will be wise and prepare for the future. They will be careful, eat right, see the dentist, sell their bikes, stop people from jumping out of airplanes, no more scuba, no mountain climbing, Good God, |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by raydawg on 08/08/18 at 21:08:13 3B242225383F0E3E0E36242863510 wrote:
No football? You think all the lawsuits are just a means to kill this sport of wealthy owners, or? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/09/18 at 05:52:58 "They will be careful, eat right, see the dentist, sell their bikes, stop people from jumping out of airplanes, no more scuba, no mountain climbing, Good God," Who mentioned anything, in this thread exclusively, as in only in this thread, that people are, will, should or have tried to stop people from jumping out of airplanes as part of universal healthcare planning? There has never to my knowledge been any mention of illegalizing hobbies as a form of healthcare. Pre-planning for treating arthritis in an aging population has nothing to do with scuba diving. The budget and resources needed to lobby for laws that will not even be enforceable is definitely not something healthcare providers are looking to do. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/09/18 at 12:25:45 092A1734362D2A23440 wrote:
That's probably the most Logical thing you have posted here. Yet be careful, ’someone’ may say: “Well That’s Racist” ! [/quote] Don't be so quick... I agree that "welfare" needs revision, but.... the solution, as I see it, is to INCREASE welfare support and reform it so that it rewards people for doing the right things instead of taking it away when they start to get a bit successful. a great way of doing this is a Universal Basic Income |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/09/18 at 12:32:45 7C5C5E564B5C390 wrote:
not necessarily, Universal healthcare could be set up to encourage and offer better preventative measures, I know if I could get 30% off a gym membership I'd join. or if I could get "prescription" healthy food at a discount, I'd opt for that instead of the poor man's diet. it's not always about shortsightedness or not caring |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/09/18 at 14:18:08 I'm not saying its exclusively about shortsightedness or complacency, I am saying that a lack of imminence regarding very common health risks is a hard issue to resolve in a Universal healthcare system. Not everyone fails to prepare for retirement, but some do because its so far away. Some don't prepare because they can't afford it, while others just don't care. We can help people who can't afford it, but its a lot harder to help people who don't care unless we put our own money away for them to use later. With health issues we can't just store good health in a trust fund for later. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by faffi on 08/09/18 at 14:45:40 In Norway, some of your money goes to retirement. The majority is taken care of by the government and returned to you as you retire. Those who have had little or no income during life is given a minimum pension which is enough to live from, but not extravagant. A decade back or so, the system of public pension was reduced for those born after 1963 IIRC, and it its place came mandatory saving through a minimum 2% of the salary handled by the employer. You can save more on your own, or an employer can give you more in an effort to become a more attractive place to work. The new system is clearly another step in the direction away from "true" socialism in favour of more capitalism, for better and for worse. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/09/18 at 15:25:45 4665797E4B787E63797E0A0 wrote:
not necessarily, Universal healthcare could be set up to encourage and offer better preventative measures, I know if I could get 30% off a gym membership I'd join. or if I could get "prescription" healthy food at a discount, I'd opt for that instead of the poor man's diet. it's not always about shortsightedness or not caring[/quote] -------------------- so, condemn those that can't afford it but care to spite the ones that just don't care? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/09/18 at 17:48:45 No. I don't know how providing free healthcare for everyone for their entire lifetime is condemnation of any kind. How did you come to that conclusion? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/10/18 at 11:34:43 537371796473160 wrote:
well, you are arguing AGAINST setting up free healthcare or retirement or welfare for people... |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/10/18 at 11:39:31 sorry Eegore, I think I miss-quoted in an above response, it should have read: 5A7A78706D7A1F0 wrote:
----- so, condemn those that can't afford it but care to spite the ones that just don't care? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/10/18 at 12:35:33 "well, you are arguing AGAINST setting up free healthcare or retirement or welfare for people... " Incorrect. I stated: I believe including imminence assessment by age and other factors into the psychological components of any empowering-based healthcare process would improve the program In this statement the word "including" is an attempt to convey that it would be in addition to any planning of a Universal healthcare system. This is not intended to remove or replace the planning stage, but compliment it, or otherwise provide additional support. The portion "would improve the program" is intended to convey that the program with the inclusion (as in addition to as described above) of the appropriate psychological components would result in a higher efficiency. Improvement of a program would not by my definition mean to stop, remove, replace, dismantle or otherwise reduce the current planning process. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by LostArtist on 08/10/18 at 13:22:20 7454565E4354310 wrote:
you're clarifcation helps, I read that as you hedging your stance on this. you're saying, more data, more research, more education.... AKA more delays, more EXCUSES. When you were just making a suggestion to improve the "program" so you're more or less for "Medicare for all" using that as a catch all phrase for a government managed healthcare system or would you prefer some kinda capitalistic system where it's all about the money still? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by MnSpring on 08/10/18 at 13:46:02 “…its a lot harder to help people who don’t care unless we put our own money away for them to use later. …” WOW, that’s Great ! Tell everybody, that they do NOT have to ‘care’, because someone will put away money for them. They can drive the latest and greatest car/MC/truck, have the fanciest boat, have snowmobiles & quads. Everything the newest and greatest. Nothing used, because it does not matter that all extra money goes to interest for borrowing, because someone else, will save for them. What a Great Future, the young have. Oh Wait, hasn’t that been happening for 20-30 years already ? And the last 8 years gathered speed and risen faster than ever before. Is that not, the reason, some are complaining about the Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, Gimmers today. And some are standing in the street, crying, “What - Me Work”, (aka A. E. Newman) |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/10/18 at 14:16:19 I was using retirement as a similar time-specific model of preparing for instances in our lives that are inevitable, but for youth, far away. This is a discussion about Universal healthcare options, I am not in this thread making suggestions of any kind regarding the use of money for anything other than Universal healthcare. Retirement was a similar example, that is as far as I am willing to take the retirement issue in this thread. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/10/18 at 14:18:59 "so you're more or less for "Medicare for all" using that as a catch all phrase for a government managed healthcare system or would you prefer some kinda capitalistic system where it's all about the money still? " I am saying that people who are younger do not typically take into account the things they need to do now to mitigate common foreseeable health issues. I think that concept should be taken into account when planning any type of Universal healthcare system. That is literally all I am trying to say. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/18 at 10:43:51 Knowing that about human nature, how would anyone use that? Required diets? Make "Risky" behavior illegal until you're thirty? Can you give an example of How knowing that people usually do whatever they want unless they hit a roadblock that forces a more responsible direction can be used in designing that program? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/12/18 at 12:54:17 Yes. Plan for it and conduct case studies. I already stated that there is no reason for healthcare providers to lobby for laws to illegalize risk behavior, its costly and unenforceable. There is zero percentage of planning or applied skillsets recommended in any way to create legislation to reduce risk of any kind while planning a Universal healthcare budget. Lets take diabetes as an example. Its not illegal to get diabetes or engage in diets that would increase ones chance of getting diabetes. No part of Universal healthcare planning would attempt to make any part of becoming diabetic against the law. If 20% of the total population are diabetic and within that group 50% are male, white, and over the age 50, then creating a budget that allocates about half of its insulin distribution and dialysis treatment program funding to match about the time that white males are reaching 50 that is better than just allocating 20% of total budget to diabetes treatments in general. If 5% of males and females under 25 need level II trauma treatment for auto accidents, and 5% of males and females over the age 75 also need this then allocating resources of 50% standard and 50% geriatric is more accurate than allocating 10% trauma budget for the population as a whole. Not everyone wants to make a law, or restrict/control people to solve a problem. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by MnSpring on 08/12/18 at 15:19:03 6141434B5641240 wrote:
Unfortunately, the 'Big Divide', is that a number of very vocal, yet very far from the majority, do want to: "...restrict/control people ..." |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/18 at 16:07:31 7D5D5F574A5D380 wrote:
Thoughtful response, Kindle locking up, |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/13/18 at 11:20:22 "Unfortunately, the 'Big Divide', is that a number of very vocal, yet very far from the majority, do want to:" I am not aware of any proposals in Universal healthcare planning that are attempting to make risk behaviors such as sports or diet choices illegal. I've seen this in other topics but not the one being discussed in this thread. A portion of Universal healthcare would support keeping things like the distribution of narcotics, sharing /selling of prescription drugs illegal as this makes both health, and financial sense. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by MnSpring on 08/13/18 at 15:06:23 1636343C2136530 wrote:
Just to make your stand, perfectly clear. “…I am not aware of any proposals in Universal healthcare planning that are attempting to make risk behaviors such as sports or diet choices illegal. …” Is that, perfectly true, because anything with a firearm, is not considered a Sport ? Do remember a time, when the AMA, TOLD it’s doctors, to ASK, about Guns. Then, they were to, ‘Advise’, about them. That disappeared quickly, because the majority of them were told, (in no un-certain words), ‘Watch your Own Bobber’. Yet, the attitude, that a Doctor, who doesn’t own or shoot a gun, (or perhaps has one, but keeps it locked up and unloaded at all times), knows more about a gun, than a gun person who owns, shoots, etc. etc. etc., still persists. (By the DOCTOR). AND, it is still supported and brandished around like a big stick, by the AMA. Yet you are, “… not aware of any proposals in Universal healthcare planning that are attempting to make risk behaviors such as sports or diet choices illegal. …” When the AMA, Lies about numbers, and is doing everything it can, to BAN guns ? |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Eegore on 08/13/18 at 16:03:21 The AMA is not a proponent of Universal healthcare. As such since the topic is about Universal healthcare planning, which at this time has zero legal actions proposed regarding sporting activities of any kind, none, I would not consider the actions of the AMA to be representative of Universal healthcare budgetary or policy implementation. So I would stand by my original assessment: I've seen this in other topics but not the one being discussed in this thread. I would be willing to look over any information you would have regarding Universal healthcare and how they are attempting any capacity to introduce any legislation that isn't about funding, or is being utilized in any way as a form of gun control. |
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Title: Re: if its free, its pretty useless..... Post by Serowbot on 08/13/18 at 16:34:47 oh,... that AMA.... :-? |
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