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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> About China...... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1532188198 Message started by raydawg on 07/21/18 at 08:49:58 |
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Title: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/21/18 at 08:49:58 I talked about This earlier, I don’t remember any replies..... This is the real threat to a different world changing. Their mono race society will not bend to social whims of other nations. Their historical root is mere survival, individually, first and foremost. As Americans and most of our allies, we have not tasted of that motivation from our lap of capitalism luxury. Once Asia wrestles the economic center of activity away from the west, it might never return again. It will make the homeless problem seem like a over booked campground, not the hand wringing and enabling we currently view it. Anyway, I am not alone in this assessment, here is a snippet from a interview of Harry Kissinger: The alternative, Kissinger adds, is not appealing. A divided Atlantic would turn Europe into “an appendage of Eurasia”, which would be at the mercy of a China that wants to restore its historic role as the Middle Kingdom and be “the principal adviser to all humanity”. It sounds as though Kissinger believes China is on track to achieve its goal. It won’t let me link the article from Financial Times... If interested, a story is viewable via Real Clear Politics today. Read it for a different perspective from a man who is almost 100 Years old and historically seen and studied much. Or just stay with titilation.... Just get to the campground early. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/21/18 at 13:13:46 Economy experts have predicted for a long time that the Chinese/Asian economy will walk all over that of us in the West and make us comparatively poor. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by Eegore on 07/21/18 at 15:02:58 "Economy experts have predicted for a long time that the Chinese/Asian economy will walk all over that of us in the West and make us comparatively poor. " Exactly. This has been coming for decades, there's no reason to expect it to stop based off of the current consumer trends. I don't recall any future trade modules that have ever said China would not expand dramatically, not that I've seen them all. Its cheaper to send a container by ship from Boston to San Diego than it is to truck it to New York. China geographically has an advantage let alone its economic structuring and trade. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/21/18 at 15:39:42 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1758-5899.12437 |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/21/18 at 18:26:25 Good read...... Knowing now how Trump has used trade as a issue, it seems to parallel the information in that article. Read what Kissinger said re: Asia. America will awaken after its too late. Asia is hungry, the people, they will work 24/7 and be happy for the opportunity, chance. Is it capitalism coming back to bite the USA because we lost our focus on what work ethics were all about? |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/22/18 at 08:10:41 It depends on how you define work ethics. The real issue IMO is money. You learn you can make more money making your products in Asia, so that is what you do. Now your workers are unemployed. Most people lack the drive, skill or financial resources to start their own business. Hence unless someone create new jobs for these now unemployed workers that are competitive, you have an issue. As it escalates, it's a national issue. In other words, again my personal opinion, you need a governing body that work to make sure the population gets the correct form of education and also encourage businesses to keep up to date so they can stay ahead nationally in an international market. By that I mean when some jobs are outsourced, new must be created that are competitive. Sorry, my lack of English vocabulary makes it difficult to get into a discussion fine enough in detail when it comes to politics; most of my knowledge of the language revolves around motorcycles :-[ But I hope you get the gist of it. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/22/18 at 09:03:34 Your English appears better than mine [ch128523] You bring up some interesting points. Schools use to teach the fundamentals, the 3R’s and you passed or were held back, or sent to a school that catered more toward students with issues. Also, the man was expected to be the bread winner, while the wife ran the household, which seemed in the larger picture to stabilize the community. Feminism and greed appears to have come at the cost of societal stability, with economics being a tool to wield as power.... :-? |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/22/18 at 13:52:37 You are probably pretty correct. However, it is my understanding that whereas throughout the 70s, most could survive well on one salary, whereas these days most need two incomes to support a family? On a single salary, a family could afford a house, a car and a motorcycle and still be reasonably well off. Now, few can do that. Partially because the demand for a certain standard has gone up, but also because people get paid relatively less now compared to the cost of living, from what I have gathered. Basically, a larger portion of the total economy is spread across fewer hands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abMQhaMdQu0 |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/22/18 at 15:07:47 Oh indeed, a byproduct of capitalism is greed. I have used the example before. My first home I ever bought in Southern California was for 40 thousand dollars. That was a big commitment for me. It is now around a million dollars, for that 1 bath, 2 bedroom, 900 square feet home. I didn’t sell it for that, but I sold it at a great profit way back, and used the proceeds to climb the real estate ladder. I always felt like I was taking advantage of a “system” That wasn’t fair and just, in the sense that societial peace, harmony, can only come from stable neighborhoods. Folks need a stake in the “common-welfare” of where they live.... It is like a extended family. When prices restrict young families from “putting down roots” in the name of “profit” we lose something way more valuable. I cast no stones, as my house is of glass, but I would greatly welcome a restriction on the profit folks can get on the sale of homes. I am not sure how we get back there, maybe that is what Trump means by making America great again........ Except it needs to be available to all comers, not just the dominant races of the past.... Parts of the past was great, for many, not so much, for others, but that does not mean we can’t make it great for all. Just takes a little less of self and a little more of others, first... |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/23/18 at 05:35:37 Oh indeed, a byproduct of capitalism is greed. Maybe, maybe not, but certainly byproducts of capitalism are better living conditions, longer life and a cleaner environment. When prices restrict young families from “putting down roots” in the name of “profit” we lose something way more valuable. Again, maybe, maybe not. I'm leaning towards maybe, but have to consider that maybe not is an option. One thing is true, the price of almost every single item goes down over time.... with certain key exceptions. Real estate, taxes and college education are the three biggest exceptions I can think of. In the US, healthcare insurance cost has also increased. Interestingly, other insurance cost like property and causality have decrease). What other good or service has increased in cost? |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/23/18 at 07:48:04 Mark, capitalism most definitely offers a person born into poverty the best chance to rise out of it. Look at the competing world today, so many folks are still held in place by a caste system, but through economic opportunities more are rising out of it than ever before. Longevity is adding a great cost to our society, as it will to the world population, as standard of living rises with economic opportunities. We might find abortion troubling, wait until you see forced death in countries that do not want to waste resources on the old and maim, so other healthy can access and utilize the resources more productively. Price control is a difficult subject to broach, it really is a double-edge sword But a free market, is not a fair market, when the wealthy control so much of the freedom. Look at Trump and tariffs. Look at the USA as your family, and other countries as vendors. You want to buy/trade for a product at the same rate your neighbor does, not more. If the local market charged him a dollar for a loaf of bread, but wanted to charge you two dollars, you would not shop there. Nor would you work a job/trade at a lessor rate/exchange, than what they offer your neighbor for the same product or job. That might be considered unfair job/trade practice. Wasn’t the “unfairness” in the labor market that gave rise to unions? It seems we need to strike a balance, and that appears a little harder to agree upon. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/23/18 at 08:11:52 We might find abortion troubling, wait until you see forced death in countries that do not want to waste resources on the old and maim, so other healthy can access and utilize the resources more productively. That happens now in nations with socialized healthcare. The recent baby who was starved to death by Britain and the child who was kept imprisoned in a British hospital until he died was done because if they had gotten better care and lived, the NHS would be on the hook for medical expenses for the rest of their lives so they were killed off to save money. That's happening now. Trump's tariff approach is in response to tariff's imposed on the US, not brand new ones out of the blue. question: Does BMW need the US market to sell cars in more or less than Ford needs the German market? does China need the US market more or less than the US needs the Chinese market? |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/23/18 at 09:44:50 Trump's tariff approach is in response to tariff's imposed on the US, not brand new ones out of the blue. I am aware of that, that is why I posted as such, but it is being portrayed as a bad thing, mostly. question: Does BMW need the US market to sell cars in more or less than Ford needs the German market? does China need the US market more or less than the US needs the Chinese market? That has always been the riddle to marketing. Is more always better, or selected markets and sells. I do not believe its a simple answer, mostly because the market is fluid.... Lots of variables involved. However, you still see ads for the Clapper and Pet Rocks ;D |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by Eegore on 07/23/18 at 09:50:49 "question: Does BMW need the US market to sell cars in more or less than Ford needs the German market? does China need the US market more or less than the US needs the Chinese market?" I agree with the previous post that the answer to that question will change regularly as the process of economic trade is in constant flux. Its not as simple as saying the Chinese need US consumers, or US prices will skyrocket if China stops producing. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/23/18 at 10:06:28 No, you're both missing the point. It has nothing to do with marketing. I do not belief the tariffs (if they all actually end up being imposed) will have much effect on the big picture. The reality is BMW needs the US market for it's cars and motorcycles far more than Ford needs the German market. So if Trump puts a tariff on BMW's (I'm using this only as an example) in retaliation for Germany's tariff's on Fords, then the price of a BMW may increase to a point that sales suffer.... bigly. At that point, both BMW and Germany have a decision. BMW could decide to exit the US market or just accept lower sales. Or they could decide to build a production facility in the US to avoid the tariff. Germany may do the math and decide the revenue they get from a tariff on Ford cars does not offset their loss of tax revenues from BMW's lower sales. Now, I don't have the data, but I'm betting BMW needs the US market far more than Ford needs the German market. Of course the growing middle class of India and even China throws more variables into the equation. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by LostArtist on 07/23/18 at 11:22:51 51425A47425444230 wrote:
yes, capitalism in America devalued work, work became an expense, not value added. globalization and automation finalized that. and now we are trying to punish those that "helped" our companies... Our companies made a choice to screw Americans in the name of "free market capitalism" |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by LostArtist on 07/23/18 at 11:30:18 [quote author=20332B36332535520 link=1532188198/0#8 date=1532297267]Oh indeed, a byproduct of capitalism is greed. -- no, the motivation for capitalism is greed, it's not a byproduct, it's the PROFIT MOTIVE that drives capitalism. our human ethics and values are often counter to the purity of the math that drives capitalism |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by LostArtist on 07/23/18 at 11:38:30 467473626574635C70637A110 wrote:
have you taken inflation in account here?? cause it really depends on how you look at things, cars cost more today as a percentage of income than ever. If you are going to make this argument, you need to take inflation and the stagnation of our incomes in perspective somehow as well. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/23/18 at 12:31:39 687B637E7B6D7D1A0 wrote:
So there is an aspiring socialist in you 8-) |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/23/18 at 13:08:59 222522222D440 wrote:
So there is an aspiring socialist in you 8-) [/quote] Labels serve no one, I believe it was a attempt at levity... But in reality, labels have been used as tools to divide and stymie dialogue. It is lazy intellect, and removes honest critical exposure to our ideas and beliefs. Two can come to a agreement, of not agreeing, and be better for it, as it might reveal the truth of their convictions, which will allow and invite honest challenges to them (beliefs).... A win, win, no “loser” with that scenario. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by faffi on 07/23/18 at 13:17:20 For what it's worth, I meant it as a compliment ;) |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by raydawg on 07/23/18 at 13:36:34 2C2B2C2C234A0 wrote:
i believe you :) |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/23/18 at 17:33:41 cars cost more today as a percentage of income than ever. No, they do not. They cost dramatically less. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/23/18 at 18:37:33 Here you go. https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/julian-simon-was-right-half-century-population-growth#full |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by Eegore on 07/23/18 at 20:22:03 Simon's research was about commodities, was automobiles in there and I missed it? |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by WebsterMark on 07/24/18 at 03:39:00 In the context i was replying to Ray about, cars are commodities. But i'll find specific research on car prices tonight and post it. i saw a great report not long ago show number of hours worked required to pay for car over past 75 years. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by Eegore on 07/24/18 at 05:32:00 That would be interesting to read. I've had a few older rides over the years, I currently drive a 1960 Cadillac Convertible and new it was around $7,400. I never did the national average wage conversion for that year. |
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Title: Re: About China...... Post by LostArtist on 07/24/18 at 09:43:45 0C3E39282F3E29163A29305B0 wrote:
yes, they do.. here's the math: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/03/07/have-cars-really-grown-more-expensive-since-1965/ http://https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2014/02/Chart.jpg now, cars today do have a TON more things in them, things that weren't even imagined in the past, so that's part of it. but in NO WAY, do they cost "dramatically less" . other links proving my point or expanding on the subject https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/2012-vs-1984-young-adults-really-do-have-it-harder-today/article4105604/ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/how-much-more-expensive-life-is-today-than-it-was-in-1960.html in this chart, the second column is that 1938 price adjusted for inflation and the last column is what it was actually priced in 2013 http://www.mybudget360.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/inflation-and-actual-prices.png http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-living-1938-to-2015-inflation-history-cost-of-goods-inflation/ here's a Washington Post article supporting Web https://www.washingtonpost.com/cars/have-cars-actually-gotten-more-expensive-over-time/2017/03/13/5c5b9d30-081b-11e7-bd19-fd3afa0f7e2a_story.html?utm_term=.acc85a241583 But, keep in mind that wages and salaries have been more or less stagnant for the last 30 years or so |
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