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Message started by jjthejetplane on 07/03/18 at 10:15:07

Title: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/03/18 at 10:15:07

Hi all,

I know my posts have become sporadic but I have been separated from my bike for about a yr. When I last posted, I was having clutch issues but unsure of how to diagnose them. I was a newb wrencher then.

Most recently, I have started the process of replacing my clutch assembly.

Background:
Drove the bike from DC to GA after a carb replacement,oil change, etc
Arrived in GA and got 2 flats, a week a park, decided to park the bike-noticed clutch slippage around this time ie no power to accelerate and began posting.

Today:
I work for Eaglerider/HD and have the ability to bring my bike to work to work on it.
I have it up on the lift and am now rehabbing her.

I have pulled the exhaust, clutch case cover, carb, battery, oil and air filters.

My air filter smelled of gasoline.
My oil filter needs replacing.
My oil pan which was drained a yr ago when I first open the clutch case was 90% full of water 10% oil.

At this moment, my stomach sank. I went to talk to the techs at Hellbender.
"There is sludge in my clutch case, rust on the top half of the gears, oil pan was full of water. Is my engine done? :-[ :-[ :-["
I was told to pull the spark plug, run new oil, and start her up.

I am the only metric rider here. I trust his knowledge but I prefer the opinions of fellow savage enthusiasts. What should I do here guys?
My boss is preaching hellfire and brimstone,telling me that my bike may be done.
I have just ordered a complete clutch assembly and new tires. I really hate the idea that something more and much worse could be wrong.

Any steps for diagnostics?
Any suggestions to assuage my fears?

The bike is currently not running as I have pulled everything off to get it ready for the new clutch assembly and I want it to start properly the first time.

Also, for those who may be curious-the clutch is fried and needs to be replaced. A complete basket assembly was cheaper than the barnett kit.
The tire had a nail dead center and is being replaced with a dunlop 404g.
The battery is on a tender until reassembly.
The gas has been drained.
So, right now unless I pull the engine-I'm not sure how I will test to be sure there was no real damage.

A third opinion was given that a brass brush would take care of the rust on the gears in the clutch case.
My boss is saying that my oil pan and engine head prob have rust as well. Likely?
When I pulled the muffler I ran my hand along the inside of the head and felt no moisture. so, idk. :-/

Thanks guys,

Jaye

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/03/18 at 10:45:58

Have any of you used/ Can any of you attest to the usefulness of Mystery Oil in this situation?

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/03/18 at 10:50:41

Here is where I think the water entered. I’d drained the oil and started prepping for the clutch repair but moved for work and had to leave the bike.my Vindictive ex cut my cover and my clutch case wasnt air tight, gasket is/was done and so, here we are.

The oil pan had almost a quart of water inside.

The bottom of the clutch case was full of oily sludge. Rust is as appears in picture.

Hoping my engine is ok. I love this bike. Shouldn’t have left it :'(

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/03/18 at 10:54:23

At some point the cost of Trying to save what Might or Might Not be a dependable machine is more than the value of the bike.
If you've already bought stuff, maybe take the shot.
I'm fond of diesel for a soak.
It's okay if the motor leaks, just slap the sides on and dump diesel in. Let it soak overnight. Drain, pop the sides off, blow and mop the crud out.
Repeat until you stop getting bunches of crud.

Or, junk it out
Buy a bike.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/03/18 at 12:41:13

How long did it sit with all this water in there? BTW, your cam chain tensioner looks to be at the end of it's useful life. It's waaaay out there.

I would try the diesel flush. Then put it back together without changing any parts except for a new oil filter and new oil. Use a cheap brand of 10W-40. Start it up. If it runs, warm it up and ride it around at very, very low speed (like in a parking lot). Repeatedly shift it through all five gears, up & down. After about 30 minutes of operation in this fashion, drain the oil and take a look. The oil will probably be full of rust debris.

Refill with fresh cheap 10W-40 and repeat the warm up and slow drive process. Then drain the oil again. It should look a lot better. If it looks pretty clean, fill it with a fresh batch of cheap 10W-40 and go for a short ride. If it runs OK and isn't making any horrible noises, it's time to decide if you want to take a chance on investing any cash in the new tensioner and fixing the clutch (you can still e-Bay the new clutch assembly you bought).

Of course if you decide to keep it, you want to get that cheap 10W-40 out of there and refill with some good oil and a new filter.

Hope rings eternal.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/03/18 at 13:02:06

The bike sat for a yr and a few months-not quite a yr and a half.
The manager at HD's service department is telling me to use the Mystery oil down my spark plug hole and into my oil pan- soak, and drain as you guys have suggested with the diesel flush.
I pulled the clutch case off and drained the oil a yr or so ago bc I was having issues with the clutch. I left the bike sitting, dry for all that time and came back to an oil pan full of water.
IF (please GOD) the bike runs once I have done the flush and swapped out the clutch, I will start on the cam chain tensioner. Although, you guys are making me wonder if this is worth the investment. This is my baby and I won't be selling her.

Any suggestions on the 10w-40? I don't want to risk mucking it up again.

I got the clutch assembly for 99 bucks and the tire for 97 so I'm not killing the budget as of now but I set a budget of 300 to get it road-ready again and it seems like it is about to start creeping up. (At the time, the clutch, tire and foot peg were all that needed replacing) The good thing about having an older model Savage is that parts are plentiful and cheap. So, if it is possible to fix (and I operate under the belief that all machines can be ) I am willing to try.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/03/18 at 15:57:25

Although, you guys are making me wonder if this is worth the investment. This is my baby and I won't be selling her.

Emotions and economic decisions are not the smart combination.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by LANCER on 07/04/18 at 04:43:18

I have not heard you say anything that would make me think you cannot get it going again.
After you have done the flushes and replaced the clutch Pak, and try starting it again then get back and let us know what happened.
You did not mention the carb, which could very well be a cause of a non-start situation. Pulling it off and disassembly to clean it really well is not difficult. You could do this while you wait for the flushes to do their work.
There are several very tiny holes and passageways in the carb body, and they all need to be clear and flowable for the carb to function as advertised.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by batman on 07/04/18 at 07:32:20

The rusty surfaces don't worry me as much as what the water may have done to the bearings , that might be the limiting factor for continued investment in restoring the bike. During the final flush , you could try running the bike through the gears rotating the motor by hand ,by jacking the bike and using the rear wheel.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/18 at 14:57:00

Spark plug out
I'd rather see the belt off
And slowly spin the crankshaft from the timing port.
If it's got a crunchy spot
It's not gonna last

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/04/18 at 16:34:46

I brought the carb home to clean it today and will be back at work tmrw to put it back together for the flush. The general consensus among the techs over at HD is the diesel will dry out my seals but that MMO would be a good bet. Justin-o-guy has never steered me wrong before tho so I am going to attempt the diesel flush. Should I mix it with the 10w-40 or just a straight shot?

The carb has some green liquid in the float bowl-I'm assuming this is from the old gas.
I pulled the carb to clean it and was intending to run seafoam through it and the tank when i put the new basket in. I can't ride it until I install the new basket.
I am pretty certain the water got in through my clutch case bc it wasn't watertight nor was it covered. The sludge was around the bottom of the clutch basket and not really anywhere else. As stated, the oil pan was full of water just a few drops of milky oil floating in the mix.
I rode the bike to GA, picked up a nail, had the tire repaired and then picked up another. I rode it home from the tire place and noticed the bike would not accelerate going uphill-it took my a few wks to work up the courage to remove my exhaust and pull the clutch cover.
It took us a while here on the forum to figure out what was going on prior to me pulling the cover and sure enough, it was fried.
I can disassemble the bike and take pics of whatever is needed. Just tell me where to start. Once the spark plug is out, I should pull the belt off of the belt drive? Is this to turn the gears and essentially move the oil through each in lieu of riding it?

The plan was to replace the clutch basket, tire, and filters;change the oil and clean the carb-inspect it for anything further since it has been sitting. I wasn't expecting a possible engine overhaul. :(

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by engineer on 07/04/18 at 19:44:28

It doesn't sound like your engine is junk at this point. If you wanted to be certain of everything then a tear down and cleaning would put it back in order. Short of that, a good flush as suggested by others would be the way to go, that is what I would do. Just do it before you put that new clutch in, you don't want to get any anti-friction additives or other gunk on those new plates. Most of us use Rotella oil. The biggest threat to your engine is most likely that chain tensioner that is close to falling out and chewing up the works. Best to put in a new chain or the Versy extension now while you have that side of the engine open. You are aware of the different lengths of push rods for the clutch?

Also, I don't understand how all that water got in there unless someone deliberately poured it in. How many miles are on the bike? This is a good place to get your questions answered. Many of the guys on this forum have extensive experience with this engine, they are the best bunch I've ever met on any motorcycle forum. Good luck.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/18 at 19:57:22

The carb has some green liquid in the float bowl-I'm assuming this is from the old gas.

I've seen that. Yes, evaporated gas leaves that green gobooger.

I pulled the carb to clean it and was intending to run seafoam through it and the tank when i put the new basket in.

Nah,clean the carb, every tiny passage and jets. Clean the tank. If you don't have a Raptor Petcock, do that.
If you do, put gas in the FLUSHED tank, and let it flow into a clear catch. Note flow and clarity.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/18 at 20:00:58

EYE PROTECTION
And really good ventilation
B12 Chemtool with the red straw will blast passage open.
It WILL spray in your face and
It's NOT okay.
Protect yourself.
I only spray it outside.
I hold my breath
Shoot
Run into the wind

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by batman on 07/05/18 at 06:47:35

I don't understand why the Harley boys think that diesel will dry out your seals, it's oil! It's not gas or a harsh cleaning fluid. It should not damage your seals, ( seals are rubber-most rubber is made from oil )I've soaked O-ring drive chains in it to remove rust and dirt many times in the past ,with no hint of damage to the O-rings. Diesel is just thin oil and should not effect your clutch ,I'm not sure what's in MMO,read the can ,if it does not have JASO MA1-MA2 certification then it's not approved for use with a wet clutch. (trucks ,cars and big Harley's have clutches separate from the engine) .Bottom line ,HD boys only know HD's,take their advice with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by hotrod on 07/05/18 at 08:35:23

You should see the look on their face when I tell them that I use ATF in the primary case.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/09/18 at 11:03:03

A few ques guys. My carb has been soaking for a few days and will be going back on shortly. My clutch basket assembly and tire have also arrived.

Is this post the most comprehensive “to do” for clutch replacement? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1262974235

My clutch is fried so wondering if I need to pull the entire assembly (basket and all) and risk messing with the oil pump gear or if I would be ok simply soaking my replacement plates and replacing the internal parts. What say you guys?

Also, I’ve decided to install everything and run some rosella t thru the engine a few times in lieu of the diesel soak, thinking bc the rust seems to have been at the bottom of my clutch case that the water never really rose high enough to do real damage to my engine but we shall see. I had a very trusted mechanic friend of mine (25+ yrs as a navy motorcycle instructor and mechanic) come check it out and give me a second opinion and he advised running the oil thru and changing the oil and filter out a few times. Sound like a suicide mission?

Also, looking back at my original posting about the clutch basket assembly and tying into my earlier question-http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1528313679/12#12

If I do switch out the clutch assembly, do I need to also switch out the gear assembly as suggested in the responses or is that only for the older model clutch baskets? The one I’ve purchased is from a 2008 s40. It will be installed on a 2001 ls650.
If I’m switching out just the plates and springs, will I be alright just doing the swap out? Or are there other adjustments I have gleaned over and missed?
Here is a link to my original posting when my clutch first died on me for background.

Thanks

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1468355267/31#31

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by jjthejetplane on 07/09/18 at 11:35:44

Is there a hack to control the spring tension when removing the clutch?

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/18 at 11:44:57

I would say you're ok to just replace the plates, but...
There are issues to check when you install the plates so it's 50/50.
there's a bevel spring ring that needs to be installed correctly to work.
even after getting it all together, it may not work right due to something not sitting right.
check the oil gear engagement, push it in, pull it out, should have more than 50% engagement.
that throwout rod needs to stick out of the clutch pack by 12 to 12.5 mm to much and it'll hold the clutch in permanently, too little and it'll slip.
check function before carefully torquing every bolt down, sealing it up and filling with oil.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/18 at 11:50:54

diesel flush will remove any large debre and water before you put in the oil... don't think you need to soak it, just flush it.

but water will boil out anyway.

Rotella is relatively cheap and has great additive package.

Title: Re: 90% water
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/18 at 12:03:42

38332B3737203D21520 wrote:

Is there a hack to control the spring tension when removing the clutch?

Hack?
You remove the spider and springs... no tension.
if you're talking about the big nut and removing pack as a whole, replace two springs and secure with washers and the bolts.