SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Soft Civil War /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1529928306 Message started by WebsterMark on 06/25/18 at 05:05:06

Title: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/25/18 at 05:05:06 I read an article titled "Soft Civil War" about how the Trump phenomenon is creating a wedge between people far greater than any normal partisan divide ever could. As an example, the writer of this article was a strong lefty and what he sees as disastrous policy, I seee as common sense. Who wouldn't enforce borders? Who wouldn't arrest criminals trying to sneak across? You going to let a dangerous man free just because he's got a kid with him? Who wouldn't  restrict entry to the US from Muslim dominated countries woth a history of terrorism who have little or no passport control? Who would not question trade policies that allow nations to put huge tariffs on our products but demand we never do the same? That seems a valid point. There's already been literal shots fired. Look at the Congressional baseball practice incident. Little things like most TV shows and certainly late night "comedy " shows are unwatchable by half the country. It's true, the MSM network news is propaganda, Fox on one side, everyone on the other. And Sarah Sanders gets asked to leave a restaurant? Seriously? Where does this end? Is it really as bad as it seems or, like me, everyone on this forum is interested in politics so we see more than the average person who is for the most part oblivious to what's going on? Or, is almost everyone turned in to the day's events and almost the entire country has choosen which side of the war their going to "fight" on? (I put fight in quotes to signify this is a metaphor but maybe its not...)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/25/18 at 06:14:46 example, the writer of this article was a strong lefty and what he sees as disastrous policy, I seee as common sense. And when lefties say they want Common Sense gun laws, it's only common sense to Them. I say Armed teachers are common sense. Why do the people who believe OUR COUNTRY should have no doors have locks on their houses? People should be free to go where they want, right?

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/25/18 at 07:52:39 Why does Vatican City, which has the strictest immigration policy of all, demand we do the opposite? Why does Canada, Mexico ask us to do what they don't?

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/25/18 at 07:57:17 No duhh, dude..

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/25/18 at 08:04:35 "Why does Vatican City, which has the strictest immigration policy of all, demand we do the opposite?"  If we were only a city and the same religion with identical standards of practice they might be ok with it.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/25/18 at 08:09:29 Huhh? Whatchew tawkin Bout, Willis?

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/25/18 at 08:19:49  The US immigration policy reflects the standards and abilities of the nation as a whole.  We are an outrageously large economy, dependent on trade and immigration for many things especially in agriculture.  The US recognizes a freedom of religion and its practice within reason.  If the US was a single city, without imports or exports, like the Vatican City, and a single religion, like the Vatican City, then perhaps the VC would not have issue with an identical immigration policy.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by raydawg on 06/25/18 at 08:38:05 Who holds the microphone......? When gathered at any event, those with the amplified voice, set the agenda. The liberals have enjoyed this luxury for a spell now. They garnered this power from the push back of the Joseph McCarthy era/mindset. As with all movements, the resistance morphs into the very power hungry machine, they were fighting against, to begin with....... I think this "threat" of civil war is over-hyped, a scare tactic, that will backfire as the "middle class" will/is, rejecting these arguments, for the most part, and like a over bearing used car salesman, folks have already made up their mind they will not buy anything from this lot..... I believe all this action is within the norm of a uncharted democracy that will always be "changing" as folks change within its borders, and to events around the world. If you guys just stop and think of the claims leveled against Obama, you had a lot of crazy folk saying just as stupid stuff about him, as they are about Trump..... The only difference now, is a lot of the media has joined in that insanity. They are forfeiting their journalistic integrity, when they let personal beliefs infringe upon their responsibilities to be unbiased. Let the chips fall where they may, that is what makes this country great, NOT, kicking someone out of a restaurant, or refusing to bake a cake, WHICH, goes against your reasons to be in business, a real proverbial shooting yourself in the foot. Lets get back to policies that raise all citizens to more opportunities to become what THEY want to be. Note: Oh boy, this being retired stuff leaves me much time to teach you kiddies....hahaha.  ;)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/25/18 at 08:45:52 How many elected officials called for confrontations with the presidents staff before? Slapsy Maxie says get a crowd together and harass them. God is on our side, she says.. How that idiot gets elected is beyond me.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by MnSpring on 06/25/18 at 09:02:09 “…or, like me, everyone on this forum is interested in politics so we see more than the average person who is for the most part oblivious to what’s going on?…” I think that is the case.  Perhaps because, the people here, have dirty hands, as in wrenching on a MC, or in other words, involved with something to a higher degree, than most other people, who don’t know what a ‘lug’ wrench is. This is born out by comments, when talking to someone, they do not want to get into any ‘detail’, about a ‘political’ subject. Yet will freely go into the most minute detail, about what shoes their favorite NFL player wears. Or the nuances of a tiny fraction of a inch, of the, ‘sweet Spot’ on a certain golf club. Of course, when I talk about B.C., F.P.S., F.P.E, etc,  I get the same, ‘doe in the headlight’, look, as I give them, when they are talking about NFL shoes, or Golf clubs Yet when anything, ‘political’ comes up. It is, changed, fast, by everybody. Just like a large, multi Cultural/Religion/Sex preference/etc. group at a Thanksgiving Dinner, do NOT, talk about Politics/Religion.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by raydawg on 06/25/18 at 09:34:15 0724193A3823242D4A0 wrote: “…or, like me, everyone on this forum is interested in politics so we see more than the average person who is for the most part oblivious to what’s going on?…” I think that is the case.  Perhaps because, the people here, have dirty hands, as in wrenching on a MC, or in other words, involved with something to a higher degree, than most other people, who don’t know what a ‘lug’ wrench is. This is born out by comments, when talking to someone, they do not want to get into any ‘detail’, about a ‘political’ subject. Yet will freely go into the most minute detail, about what shoes their favorite NFL player wears. Or the nuances of a tiny fraction of a inch, of the, ‘sweet Spot’ on a certain golf club. Of course, when I talk about B.C., F.P.S., F.P.E, etc,  I get the same, ‘doe in the headlight’, look, as I give them, when they are talking about NFL shoes, or Golf clubs Yet when anything, ‘political’ comes up. It is, changed, fast, by everybody. Just like a large, multi Cultural/Religion/Sex preference/etc. group at a Thanksgiving Dinner, do NOT, talk about Politics/Religion. Not everyone..... I believe I read a reply that one frequent member does not care, or let, political matters sway him  ::)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/26/18 at 04:41:31 I was on a flight and because of the video feed delay, I had an opportunity to watch the first 10 minutes or so of Fox News, MSNBC and CNN. All three ran with the same top two stories in the same order. But the difference was night and day. Scott Adams the writer of the Dilbert cartoons says the difference between how the R's and D's see the world is like the difference in watching two different movies. Maybe the country can never come together again. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe a bad thing. I'm not sure. I don't know where this ends. The Republicans will do well in the midterms and the Democrats could unhinge even further. Or they'll admit defeat and re-tool themselves to appeal to the voters they left behind.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by raydawg on 06/26/18 at 08:06:11 What about folks like me Web? I could never be proud of Trump, I'm honestly embarrassed about him as our prez. Yes, he is right on many things, and he is where he is at because of the very intolerance of the left, and their in your face attitude. He mimics them, 180 degrees politically. However, the Republicans seem to always play the same song, money, and power via respect, via money. They are like a workaholic dad, oblivious to their children's needs, too cold. I think on one hand we expect the goverment to do more than ever intended, however, that does not change the facts that we need them to rule/guide on matters that were not present in the time of our founding. I don't want to start a 2nd amendment debate, but they could never have foreseen the present weaponry available today, etc, I believe if they had they would have offered more instructions into how we restrict the use of some, without restricting our freedoms.... Just like religion, it is freedom of, not from, yet...... We see how it is being implemented to restrict folks from expression because they promote ZERO religion... I will lay much of the blame on a opportunistic media, it's all $$$$$ However, folks need to think for themselves. This INTERNET holds many solutions, as news and their narrative in no longer a monopoly. Democracy is always growing and expanding, that is what makes it hard to govern, yet unique from any other system of governance in the world.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/26/18 at 09:49:47 340601101706112E021108630 wrote: I read an article titled "Soft Civil War" about how the Trump phenomenon is creating a wedge between people far greater than any normal partisan divide ever could. As an example, the writer of this article was a strong lefty and what he sees as disastrous policy, I seee as common sense. Who wouldn't enforce borders? Who wouldn't arrest criminals trying to sneak across? You going to let a dangerous man free just because he's got a kid with him? so, does simply crossing the border make you a dangerous criminal?  yes, it makes you a "criminal," a misdemeanor at that, oh no!!!   But yes, we should have a better idea of who is coming in and if they have a criminal history definitely deport them, but isn't that already the law?  So let's get back to giving that law the resources it needs to be enforced correctly without being cruel to innocents (children for example) Who wouldn't  restrict entry to the US from Muslim dominated countries woth a history of terrorism who have little or no passport control? what is the new "extreme vetting" policy?  wasn't the travel ban only temporary so they could establish their "extreme vetting" policy? well, it's been WAY more than 120 days... where's that policy at?   Who would not question trade policies that allow nations to put huge tariffs on our products but demand we never do the same? That seems a valid point. I'm not sure that's accurate at all... are we going to renegotiate every trade deal with every new president in office? And if you, as a company, don't like the trade deal, don't do trade with that nation. There's already been literal shots fired. Look at the Congressional baseball practice incident. Little things like most TV shows and certainly late night "comedy " shows are unwatchable by half the country. It's true, the MSM network news is propaganda, Fox on one side, everyone on the other. And Sarah Sanders gets asked to leave a restaurant? Seriously? And Obama was burned in effigy at Tea Party rallies, Fox News picked Obama apart every chance they got, even down to a tan suit... really?  If you want to use the baseball shooter, then I can bring up the Gifford's shooter, and there are signs all over the place saying "if you're liberal, don't shop here" or "liberals not welcome" etc.. .   Where does this end? Is it really as bad as it seems or, like me, everyone on this forum is interested in politics so we see more than the average person who is for the most part oblivious to what's going on? Or, is almost everyone turned in to the day's events and almost the entire country has choosen which side of the war their going to "fight" on? I think that's a huge flaw of this forum, we ONLY see the political side of people here, we don't see a well rounded person that yeah, might hold political views contrary to our own, but they could be dog lovers, and into video games we like, and have great senses of humor when they aren't bashing our side with it, etc. etc, etc...   (I put fight in quotes to signify this is a metaphor but maybe its not...)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/26/18 at 15:47:19 A bunch there but are you operating under the delusion Gifforts shooting was politically motivated? And if a tit-for-tat on left wing vs right wing political violence is what you want, you’ll lose by a mile. Leftist are far, far more violent. Another example of our Civil War.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/26/18 at 16:21:23 Don’t know how i missed this couple years ago but; “2016 is the Flight 93 election: charge the cockpit or you die. You may die anyway. You–or the leader of your party–may make it into the cockpit and not know how to fly or land the plane. There are no guarantees. Except one: if you don’t try, death is certain. To compound the metaphor: a Hillary Clinton presidency is Russian Roulette with a semi-auto. With Trump, at least you can spin the cylinder and take your chances.”

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by MnSpring on 06/26/18 at 16:21:33 1A3925221724223F2522560 wrote:  so, does simply crossing the border make you a dangerous criminal?  yes, it makes you a "criminal," a misdemeanor at that, oh no!!!  ... Hey Lost, say you were just about to purchase something you have wanted for a long time, and saved your money for it.  You have 490.00 in your wallet. Your hard earned money, which will buy the coveted thing you value so greatly, and worked to hard to save your money, so you could have it. Now you are on the way to the store. You see a Hot -Dog cart, and decide you are hungry. As you pull your wallet out from your pocket, someone grabs it, and runs into the crowd, so you cannot find them. Would you say : "...A misdemeanor at that, oh no!!!"

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/26/18 at 19:37:41  The what-ifs around here sure are amusing.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/27/18 at 02:49:34 Einstein thought what-ifs pretty valuable. I'd like to hear your answer to Mnsprings question. Someone just took $490 from you. No big deal. The guy really didn't do anything bad....

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/27/18 at 10:11:58  If its $490 and not a felony then I wouldn't expect a felony level response.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/27/18 at 10:58:15 19393B332E395C0 wrote:  If its $490 and not a felony then I wouldn't expect a felony level response.   exactly... and honestly, that'd suck for me, but you know the cops aren't going to bother finding that guy anyway... and that person still ISN'T A VIOLENT CRIMINAL. even if the cops do find that criminal, I'm still not going to get my $490 back. what exactly are you trying to compare here?   I wouldn't want that person tortured or their children ripped from their arms for $500.  I'm pretty sure they could make restitution by the law without being tortured in such ways.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/27/18 at 11:08:18 506265747362754A66756C070 wrote: A bunch there but are you operating under the delusion Gifforts shooting was politically motivated? And if a tit-for-tat on left wing vs right wing political violence is what you want, you’ll lose by a mile. Leftist are far, far more violent. Another example of our Civil War. no. leftists are not "far, far more violent" "Information on terrorist attacks and the terrorists themselves in the United States is available from the Global Terrorism Database, the RAND Corporation, and other sources. I further grouped the ideology of the attackers into four broad categories of Left Wingers, Nationalists and Right Wingers, Islamists, and Unknown/Others. Terrorists murdered 3,342 people on U.S. soil from 1992 through August 12, 2017. Islamist terrorists are responsible for 92% of all those murders. The 9/11 attacks, by themselves, killed about 89% of all the victims during this time. During this time, the chance of being murdered in a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist was about 1 in 2.5 million per year. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists are the second deadliest group by ideology, as they account for 6.6% of all terrorist murders during this time. The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the second deadliest terrorist attack in U.S. history, killed 168 people and accounted for 77% of all the murders committed by Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists. The chance of being murdered in a Nationalist or Right Wing terrorist attack was about 1 in 33 million per year. Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time, about 0.7% of the total number of murders, but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed five since then, including Charlottesville. Regardless, the annual chance of being murdered by a Left Wing terrorist was about 1 in 330 million per year." https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/08/21/which-ideology-has-inspired-the-most-murders-in-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil/#73b9dc141e74 and no, I understand that even though the shooting of Gifford took place at a democratic political rally, that the shooter was definitely mentally unstable and very very very confused about politics.  Gifford's shooter was inspired by his own twisted view of Gifford's politics and government in general.  I am NOT blaming any of the political rhetoric by the right a that time for Gifford's shooter's actions in ANY way. JUST AS the shooter of the Steve Scalise  was mentally disturbed and very confused about politics.  Scalise's shooter was inspired by his own twisted view of Gifford's politics and government in general.  I am NOT blaming any of the political rhetoric by the left a that time for Scalise's shooter's actions in ANY way.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by MnSpring on 06/27/18 at 11:16:34 01223E390C3F39243E394D0 wrote: "...what exactly are you trying to compare here? .."   Rather simple, you agree a Illegal is a criminal, and  you are implying that a, 'misdemeanor", is nothing, pfft, "...yes, it makes you a "criminal," a misdemeanor at that, oh no!!!  ... " "... I wouldn't want that person tortured or their children ripped from their arms for $500.  ..." WOW  again.  Suddenly they are, 'Tortured', ? Sure does sound like someone is whispering in your ear again LOLOL

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/27/18 at 11:58:49 2D0E331012090E07600 wrote: [quote author=01223E390C3F39243E394D0 link=1529928306/15#20 date=1530122295] "...what exactly are you trying to compare here? .."   Rather simple, you agree a Illegal is a criminal, and  you are implying that a, 'misdemeanor", is nothing, pfft, "...yes, it makes you a "criminal," a misdemeanor at that, oh no!!!  ... " "... I wouldn't want that person tortured or their children ripped from their arms for $500.  ..." WOW  again.  Suddenly they are, 'Tortured', ? Sure does sound like someone is whispering in your ear again LOLOL [/quote] no a misdemeanor is a misdemeanor...  there are various punishments for that level of crime, let's use THOSE appropriate punishments yeah, tortured might have been a bit of hyperbole, but it doesn't stop you or your side from using it if I don't use it. and I assure you, I haven't gotten any messages or any communication from T&T in quite a few months. (but I"m sure you think I'm lying to you anyway so why do I bother responding to you ... there really is no point, you're useless)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/27/18 at 14:57:08 68484A425F482D0 wrote:  If its $490 and not a felony then I wouldn't expect a felony level response.   Someone mug me and I'm going full on self defense. Screw THAT. My knife is right next to the billfold.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/27/18 at 15:04:18  Is it legal in TX to knife somebody who is running away with your money?  The question is what you would do if someone successfully ran up, took your money and ran away.  Not could you stab someone before they took your money.  If we are going this route I would just say I don't ever carry $490 and go nowhere with the topic presented.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/27/18 at 15:08:16 Since I can't run fifty feet, I'd say I would have to slink off and know I was insufficiently aware of the situation and suffered a loss. I'm pretty much aware of the situation though. I'm gonna say Extremely unlikely that someone could nail me that way.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/27/18 at 15:11:41  The question is what you would do if someone successfully ran up, took your money and ran away.  Not how far you could run, or the probability of stopping it from happening.  If we are going this route I would just say I don't eat hot dogs and still go nowhere with the topic presented.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/28/18 at 08:06:58 1E3D21261320263B2126520 wrote: [quote author=506265747362754A66756C070 link=1529928306/0#14 date=1530053239]A bunch there but are you operating under the delusion Gifforts shooting was politically motivated? And if a tit-for-tat on left wing vs right wing political violence is what you want, you’ll lose by a mile. Leftist are far, far more violent. Another example of our Civil War. no. leftists are not "far, far more violent" "Information on terrorist attacks and the terrorists themselves in the United States is available from the Global Terrorism Database, the RAND Corporation, and other sources. I further grouped the ideology of the attackers into four broad categories of Left Wingers, Nationalists and Right Wingers, Islamists, and Unknown/Others. Terrorists murdered 3,342 people on U.S. soil from 1992 through August 12, 2017. Islamist terrorists are responsible for 92% of all those murders. The 9/11 attacks, by themselves, killed about 89% of all the victims during this time. During this time, the chance of being murdered in a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist was about 1 in 2.5 million per year. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists are the second deadliest group by ideology, as they account for 6.6% of all terrorist murders during this time. The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the second deadliest terrorist attack in U.S. history, killed 168 people and accounted for 77% of all the murders committed by Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists. The chance of being murdered in a Nationalist or Right Wing terrorist attack was about 1 in 33 million per year. Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time, about 0.7% of the total number of murders, but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed five since then, including Charlottesville. Regardless, the annual chance of being murdered by a Left Wing terrorist was about 1 in 330 million per year." https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/08/21/which-ideology-has-inspired-the-most-murders-in-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil/#73b9dc141e74 and no, I understand that even though the shooting of Gifford took place at a democratic political rally, that the shooter was definitely mentally unstable and very very very confused about politics.  Gifford's shooter was inspired by his own twisted view of Gifford's politics and government in general.  I am NOT blaming any of the political rhetoric by the right a that time for Gifford's shooter's actions in ANY way. JUST AS the shooter of the Steve Scalise  was mentally disturbed and very confused about politics.  Scalise's shooter was inspired by his own twisted view of Gifford's politics and government in general.  I am NOT blaming any of the political rhetoric by the left a that time for Scalise's shooter's actions in ANY way. [/quote] still waiting Web.... your silence says you agree with me on this post.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by raydawg on 06/28/18 at 08:33:52 still waiting Web.... your silence says you agree with me on this post. Is that a attempt at being funny, or do you really not see what this statement says about you? BTW, you can either answer me here, for all to witness, ignore it, and then I can use your line against you, justifiably so  ;D .... However, please don't PM me again, I won't respond, and no, that isn't because I agree with you.  ::)

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 06/28/18 at 11:23:28 35263E23263020470 wrote: still waiting Web.... your silence says you agree with me on this post. Is that a attempt at being funny, or do you really not see what this statement says about you? BTW, you can either answer me here, for all to witness, ignore it, and then I can use your line against you, justifiably so  ;D .... However, please don't PM me again, I won't respond, and no, that isn't because I agree with you.  ::) if you don't voice objections then I'm assuming you agree or that the differences are so minor that you might as well agree, sure, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but until proven otherwise, and yeah, Web could totally be away and just not want to answer, and that's totally fine, but i"m not going to fret about his answer being negative, even I don't hate myself that much why are so afraid of pm?  or you just hate me, which is fine, that says more about you than me. I'd still like to know what do you want?

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 06/30/18 at 04:41:53 if you don't voice objections then I'm assuming you agree or that the differences are so minor that you might as well agree, sure, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but until proven otherwise, and yeah, Web could totally be away and just not want to answer, and that's totally fine, but i"m not going to fret about his answer being negative, even I don't hate myself that much I'm on vacation and I don't feel like reading whatever lead up to that right now.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by Eegore on 06/30/18 at 07:30:50  What are you doing on vacation?  We are supposed to be checking in on these forums daily, more than daily, like hourly if possible.  Just in case someone wants you to respond to something.  Get with it man.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/30/18 at 09:25:45 That's the spirit, E. C'mon you guys, get with the program.

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by LostArtist on 07/02/18 at 12:16:00 7E4C4B5A5D4C5B64485B42290 wrote: if you don't voice objections then I'm assuming you agree or that the differences are so minor that you might as well agree, sure, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but until proven otherwise, and yeah, Web could totally be away and just not want to answer, and that's totally fine, but i"m not going to fret about his answer being negative, even I don't hate myself that much I'm on vacation and I don't feel like reading whatever lead up to that right now. enjoy your vacation!!   ;D

Title: Re: Soft Civil War Post by WebsterMark on 07/03/18 at 05:29:03 if you don't voice objections then I'm assuming you agree or that the differences are so minor that you might as well agree, sure, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but until proven otherwise, and yeah, Web could totally be away and just not want to answer, and that's totally fine, but i"m not going to fret about his answer being negative, even I don't hate myself that much Okay, I'm home today. What is it I'm agreeing to by not answering?

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