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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> How do you measure energy...???? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1520353140 Message started by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 08:19:00 |
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Title: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 08:19:00 I am not talking about measuring to harness, like horsepower, BTU, Volts, etc.... I am talking about measuring energy in reference to its efficiency. We saw SpaceX just launch a craft into orbit, it was amazing, but look how much energy went into that "motion". Not sure if I can explain my thoughts, but I will try. The telescope post by Oldtimer got me to thinking, as did some of its replies and exchanges. I think we can agree we are all constrained, power wise, by time, the measure of it. Example, that spaceX aircraft could take me to a planet, but I might die before I got there, depending on speed and distance.... So, that is not a very efficient way for me to travel. How do we fix that? I'm not sure, travel faster? On what energy source? Ok, lets go back to measuring energy as efficiency. The best source of energy would be one of perpetual motion, yes? Energy that creates its own source of energy, right? Using that as our foundation of understanding, then we must look around at energy sources, using efficiency for maximizing input, to output. What source has the greatest propensity to deliver the most efficient, sustainable, source. It would have to be as close to perpetual motion as humanly possible, right? Once we can establish that, we then can control motion, which would then break us free of the constraints of time, yes? Is anybody following me? I can continue if you would like, I think I have a source, however, I think I need help in explaining it. Interested? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by Serowbot on 03/06/18 at 08:25:40 Soooo,... What kind of meds did they give ya"?... :-? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 08:46:35 5741564B53464B50240 wrote:
Ha Ha..... I got a bottle full, and those were from the first op last month. I won't take them unless the pain is searing, not worth the risk. You gotta understand your own needs to "comfort" yourself, the why you need to. That is what pain blockers do, they comfort our minds (if you have one). That is what addictions do, food, booze, even political discussions, can easily turn into a co-dependency. After my father inlaw passed, from cancer, we had hundreds, and hundreds of pills, the really strong end of life milligram ones. I am sure on the street, it would have fetched a tidy sum. My wife and I reduced those puppies down to powder, then cut it with all sorts of chemicals, etc, and disposed of it to the point no one could ever utilize them..... Over-acting, you betcha......but sure! Anyways, you wanna field the question, or do you just snipe at folk anymore? I got weeks to expand on this idea ;D |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/06/18 at 08:47:36 Intriguing thought. As technology stands today, we possess the ability to, say, get to Mars. But, and it's a big but, we can't get them back. The concept of faster is not new, much like an F-16 that fires an air to air missile. The F-16 flies at 700mph and fires a missile which also goes 700 mph. Relative speed of the missile becomes 1400 mph. Add several stages and the lack of air resistance in space, and wow. That's how we get there. How do we get back? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/18 at 08:57:31 "efficiency" isn't the word you are looking for... move along. I think you're looking for effective. For instance a 50cc moped may get you to where you're going at 120 mpg but it takes 2 hours to get there. Whereas a 650cc mc will get there in 30 mins at 50 mpg and 2 tickets 8-) But effectivity of getting there all smiley, you'd have to go the 650cc route. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 09:12:53 05382334350526383234510 wrote:
OK Dan, thanks for your reply/interest..... Let me just offer a glimpse of what I am trying to formulate..... Keeping power/energy, in mind, as the needed element (that) we will need, to overcome, with present day KNOWN constraints. For I think we can assume our solar system IS the result of some type of power source, yes? It is also a constraining factor, yes? You just gave a perfect example. So, lets look at energy a different way, not like a "fuel" tank, no, but go back to perpetual motion..... follow me? Like a small spark, as Smokey tells us, can destroy (for the sack of argument) a whole forest, right? One little minuscule source of energy that is pretty useless, "power-wise" in trying to harness it, use it. I work on jets, and whenever I am installing avionics or other equipment that has "power" as its source, I must drain any residual "energy" it might have captured while handling, it gets really intense as to where, why, and how things capture energy..... But if not corralled, controlled, it can wipe out whole circuits, a mere static discharge. So, energy exist, all around us, I think the key to our riddle is to capture it, and store it, to be able to harness it, like a battery, follow me? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 09:15:04 150611100F0204060D52630 wrote:
I would like to hear more please..... I am thinking you are putting too much emphasis on motion, at this point, I believe we need a sustainable source, first. But please continue.... :) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by IslandRoad on 03/06/18 at 09:20:10 6C7F677A7F69791E0 wrote:
I don't think that statement is correct. Motion still requires time - regardless of the source of the energy. There's a terrific book written by the scientist behind the science of the movie Interstellar. It's written in very plain English, and covers a lot of stuff from the possible, through the plausible, to the imaginary. He offers a great perspective on the sheer scale we are talking about. Many of the mind-blowing aspects of space become relatively simple - given enough distance (and time). For example, humans were mapping the night sky for about 9 thousand years. For all intents and purposes the stars looked fixed in their position. We now know they are flying apart at incredible speeds. How can that be when they appear fixed for thousands of years? - you just need to be far enough away from them for them to look stationary, regardless of how fast they are moving! He gave a great analogy: The nearest star (at the time of writing the book), that might have a planet similar to Earth, was about 12 light years away. If that distance was scaled down to the distance from New York to Paris, then the trip to the Moon was 7 centimetres. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/06/18 at 09:24:56 I measure energy in a comparative way. I consider the energy required to accomplish what needs done and compare it to the Tiredass I feel. If the energy is close or more than, I do it. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by stewmills on 03/06/18 at 09:47:15 Heat. It's all about heat! I don't know enough to really substantiate this argument in a detailed scientific manner though I always look at the whole energy process as heat transfer. The earth did whatever it did to create oil, and that took heat. The refinery used some heat to get the oil and make gasoline during the refinery process. We put that gasoline into our two-wheelers and through combustion we make a lot of heat. Some dissipates through the exhaust, some through convection of the wind blowing across the hot engine, some through the friction of the tires on the road. I think there is a formula out there somewhere that would let you account for every smidgen of "heat" that something has, creates, and/or dissipates as it goes through a chemical reaction or combustion and at the end of the math problem the ratio would be 1:1. Don't ask me to prove this. I can't. Just my two cents. :o |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 09:55:07 All good replies, thanks..... I got some things I need to do, I will add more thought later :) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/18 at 10:41:03 6E7D65787D6B7B1C0 wrote:
You have yet to define the problem with any clarity. I've only corrected usage. The only potential tech available for unlimited flight from star system to star system is a solar sailor. And about half way you're going to be sailing into a headwind. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by IslandRoad on 03/06/18 at 11:02:03 3B283F3E212C2A28237C4D0 wrote:
You have yet to define the problem with any clarity. I've only corrected usage. The only potential tech available for unlimited flight from star system to star system is a solar sailor. And about half way you're going to be sailing into a headwind.[/quote] Aaaand .... there is simply not going to be enough time in the universe to get to most of it! |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by IslandRoad on 03/06/18 at 11:03:19 56514052484C494956250 wrote:
I think you're talking about Thermodynamics - and knowing how to spell it is about as much as I know 8-) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/18 at 13:08:58 576D727F707A4C717F7A1E0 wrote:
The only other possibility are atomic rockets. But being reaction motor means they'll need to collect matter along the way in order to be self sufficient. Not much matter floating in the vacuum of space. Such a proposition would mean they would need to capture small asteroids along the way. Warp and hyper speed are simply wishes. Which means interstellar travel requires generations to get to the next galaxy. Or hibernation which pretty much eliminates the supplies issue. Or one needs to carry their ecosystem with them. Another plus to capturing a small asteroid, but bigger. Not only serving as propellant, but shielding for an over-sized ecosystem. The larger it is, the slower it is to accelerate. Emergency maneuvers? forgetaboutit. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 13:51:55 Ok, ok..... I guys are getting close, I think. As we are now, in all know forms, it’s not possible to achieve the type of travel, motion, to real beat time, right? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by T And T Garage on 03/06/18 at 14:51:27 2E3D2A2B34393F3D3669580 wrote:
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by LANCER on 03/06/18 at 16:54:27 Ya'll left out something. After Jesus returns He is going to close out this space and time; "all the elements will melt with intense heat", and create a new heaven and earth. It is then, I suspect, that we who believe will be able to travel the universe at the speed of thought ... think it, and you are there. Yep. [ch128521] |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 19:29:48 6D606F6264733336010 wrote:
I like your thinking, I’m sold ;D However, in the meanwhile....... Man is bent on trying to find out the meaning of life, and expanding his understanding appears to be geared toward searching our universe. All one needs to do is glance at the nights sky on a clear night. Our minds really can’t even grasp what it sees. Some of the images, undeniably real to our eyes, could very well only be an imagine of what use to be there, IF everything in the universe could be “encompassed” under the same moment, or constraints, of time. This very fact is why man must conquer time, before anything else is possible. In effect, once we can remove time as a constrainting enflunce, our present day clock, and using it to measure, will be obsolete. Not wanting to go down this avenue of thought yet, but it will override all facts that man currently uses to date himself, AND, the planet he lives on... Ok, back to traveling and energy. I sorta touched on this in the telescope thread. Unused energy, a source so great, and complex, already exsist in a dormant form.... Like that static electricity I talked about. This source can create itself, almost like pepetual motion, in a sense..... It’s own seed. Within its matter lies the “future” when mated with the other element of a woman. If, somehow, we use the the energy in this seed, to continuiously “clone” itself, to provide the link to the future where it’s energy will be “spent”, you have effectively created a perpetual energy source, do you see it? Now.... It gets messy. We effectively have removed one extremely important element that only is known to exsist in man.... Freewill. He has at this point been reduced to something in the effect of, artificial intelligence, or life.... Is anybody with me? ;D |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by eau de sauvage on 03/06/18 at 20:07:17 I think we can assume our solar system IS the result of some type of power source, yes? Gravity. How do we fix that? You problem is that space is big and things are far away and there's nothing we can do to fix that. The best source of energy would be one of perpetual motion, yes? Not really because perpetual motion machines cannot exist which is why the patent office won't consider a patent for one. In the past any shyster could patent a perpetual motion machine and use the patent application as some sort of 'proof' that their idea is valid then on the basis of the patent they could fleece investors. So that can't happen any longer. Energy is the ability to do work and power is how fast you can deliver it. But work is defined as moving something against a force. In the case of leaving the Earth's gravity energy is required to overcome that force. If you get up to enough speed you can break out of the Earth's gravitation influence. Once you've done that you can coast the rest of the way because it doesn't take any energy at all to keep moving in space. Only if you want to accelerate does that take energy. However anything more than 10 meters per second per second (1G) for an extended period of time is dangerous. You will die. So to get up to a decent speed it takes a long long time, and you need an equal time to slow back down again. Accelerating requires energy Also if you are travelling really fast then a microscopic speck of space dust will explode your vessel. To travel to another planet assuming we knew one that was worth travelling to would take a few generations. We'd probably need to gather fuel along the way in the form of hydrogen atoms that we could strip the electrons off then shoot them out the back with a magnetic ion accelerator. This is pretty gentle. Realistically the human species will perish on Earth, don't take Star Trek too seriously. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 20:12:23 I agree with you in total? That is why we have to overcome time...... As a measurement. It constraints us to its physical limitations. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by eau de sauvage on 03/06/18 at 20:19:58 Don't make the Newtonian mistake of thinking that Time and Space are completely different things. As hard as it is to wrap our heads around it the fact is that Time is a dimension of space. In fact physicists do not refer to time but to Spacetime. If you get up from you chair and start walking then time for you is slowing down. Time slows down if you move relative to a clock that stays put, and time slows down in a gravitational field. So with the GPS satellites, the fact that they are whizzing around at a big speed means that their clocks tick slower and that has to be factored in. Also because they are further away from the gravitational field of the Earth so their clocks are also speeding up. However they are slowing down more than they are speeding up. If we did not take into account the gravitational and speed time dilations then your gps would be out by miles every day. 5E4D55484D5B4B2C0 wrote:
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 20:41:01 Ok, using your reasoning..... Is the cup half full, or half empty? Let me ask it this way perhaps. From the moment we are born, we are dying then, yes? At which point of our life then, can we say our journey through it, is halfway through? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by eau de sauvage on 03/06/18 at 20:47:02 A powerful emissary of the gods once cursed a man that he would die in 7 days. The cursed man was happy and smiling. The emissary asked him why he was so happy knowing he only has 7 days to live. He said that he knows for certain that he will live for 7 days, nobody else has a guarantee that they will wake up the next morning. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/06/18 at 21:10:44 Hey, I like the reasoning behind that, sweet..,. But it doesn’t answer the question? Well, it does really, so it’s a guess when my life is half over, yes? I wonder how much other stuff we give value, is only a guess? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by eau de sauvage on 03/06/18 at 21:14:00 More to the point, is how much we miss! I guess if we're over 50 then all we can say is that we are closer to the end than the beginning. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/18 at 21:32:41 2A39213C392F3F580 wrote:
I don't think I care where the half way point is... when I'm done, that's it, I'm done. I've done a little every day. Some are milestones, some are waypoints to another milestone. Hopefully, someone won't sweep them all out when I'm gone. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by eau de sauvage on 03/06/18 at 21:33:44 @stewmills The earth did whatever it did to create oil, and that took heat You may as well start at the source, so there was a big ball of hydrogen which collapsed under the effects of gravity, (which btw is negative energy) when there was enough heat and pressure 10,000,000K it ignited and mass was converted into energy, as per Einstein e=mc2. Every second 600 billion kilograms of hydrogen are fused into 596 billion kilograms of helium. So 4 billion kilograms of mass has been converted directly into energy, this energy is in the form of photons in the form of high energy gamma rays. Because the Sun is so dense it takes about 40,000 years for these gamma rays to make it to the surface of the Sun, by which time they have lost so much energy colliding with other particles that they are now in the visible portion of light at 6,000K and on they stream to Earth. Photons created from matter. These photons hit plants and knock electrons into higher energy orbits which then drop back down again and emit lower energy photons from visible light in the green wavelengths to the infra red wavelength. This doesn't really help the plant, which has to somehow figure out how to capture and store this energy which it does using a magnesium atom in the chlorophyl molecule. I shifts an electron and captures it in an electron acceptor molecule. It then uses this stored energy to by way of a convoluted process to build a high energy containing molecule of glucose containing carbon hydrogen and oxygen from low energy carbon dioxide. We humans reverse this procedure and breakdown the glucose back to how it started by shifting electrons around in the Krebs cycle. We have to do it little bit by little bit because we don't want to start a fire inside us. Along the way we attach an oxygen atoms to a molecule of adenosine diphosphate, and make adenosine triphosphate ATP which is the $$$$'s that our body spends to build complex things from simple things. In the use of energy unordered waste heat is produced which ultimately radiates off into space. Thus increasing the entropy of the Universe. So basically high energy photons rain down on the earth stuff happens which appears to violate the law of entropy but it doesn't really because overall more disordered low energy photons radiate away from the Earth so the net result if more disorder, more running down. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/06/18 at 22:13:29 23302726393432303B64550 wrote:
I don't think I care where the half way point is... when I'm done, that's it, I'm done. I've done a little every day. Some are milestones, some are waypoints to another milestone. Hopefully, someone won't sweep them all out when I'm gone.[/quote] I like that.. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by Dave on 03/07/18 at 04:56:45 49736C616E64526F6164000 wrote:
Thermodynamics was my most challenging course in college....it seemed really abstract. Pretty weird I made an "A" in Heat Transfer and barely passed Thermo - on the surface they seem pretty similar.....but the concepts of Enthalpy and Entropy still have me baffled. I am however satisfied that with a few simple mechanical changes....I can get a 30HP Savage up closer to 40 HP! :) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/07/18 at 07:31:24 714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:
Thermodynamics was my most challenging course in college....it seemed really abstract. Pretty weird I made an "A" in Heat Transfer and barely passed Thermo - on the surface they seem pretty similar.....but the concepts of Enthalpy and Entropy still have me baffled. I am however satisfied that with a few simple mechanical changes....I can get a 30HP Savage up closer to 40 HP! :)[/quote] ah, a man who knows the key to life :) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by T And T Garage on 03/07/18 at 09:39:11 25372320373133560 wrote:
I don't know about that. There are still things we're learning about our universe that could lead to inter-dimensional and FTL travel. Realistically, it's not going to happen within our lifetimes - but you never know. ;) |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by batman on 03/10/18 at 21:52:32 Atomic rockets ? think about how we got to the moon. Did we have rockets firing all the way? No! we slingshot around the earth to pick up speed and coast until we got there. How much more speed could you build but by circling bodies of greater mass like our sun or the stars ? what is there to slow you down in the vacuum of space. The biggest problem would be our bodies ability to withstand the G forces involved. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/11/18 at 09:56:33 4B485D4448471D11290 wrote:
We “revert” back to seed, reverse aging, and upon arrival of destination, through preprogrammed technology, reassemble ourself. All of who we are can be found in our seed. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by LANCER on 03/11/18 at 10:56:17 293A223F3A2C3C5B0 wrote:
We “revert” back to seed, reverse aging, and upon arrival of destination, through preprogrammed technology, reassemble ourself. All of who we are can be found in our seed. [/quote] Where are you going to get "The Spark of Life" to restart your seed ? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by batman on 03/11/18 at 11:10:13 Raydawg , the problem with this planet is humans, we are well on our way to destroying it . I would hate to thing that we would ever have the technology to export mankind anywhere else in the universe. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/12/18 at 11:41:57 We need a technology that allows us to not pollute by using the Other technologies. As horrible as plastic is, I worry about the nuclear messes. How many deaths are caused by cancer that is caused by it? |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/12/18 at 11:52:56 535E515C5A4D0D083F0 wrote:
We “revert” back to seed, reverse aging, and upon arrival of destination, through preprogrammed technology, reassemble ourself. All of who we are can be found in our seed. [/quote] Where are you going to get "The Spark of Life" to restart your seed ? [/quote] The spark of CREATED life ;) Yes, I believe what we will find at the end of this journey is that we are created/designed. Now, we can argue other by who? ;D |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/18 at 22:13:26 This has gone into the religion relm of the TT. I can move this there for you or split it. or you can return to the original topic. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by batman on 03/13/18 at 11:56:51 The most common sources of energy in the universe would be gravity , magnetism and solar energy. how we could use them separately or in combination is sometime I'm not smart enough to know, but magnetism is interesting from the point that if you place two magnets together with like poles facing they repel from each other . What is the amount of energy you added to cause this movement? zero! now imagine one to be a planet (iron core-low gravity) and the other to be a spaceship , that harnessed solar/atomic / or yet unknown source of power, to induce a magnetic field in it's hull. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by raydawg on 03/13/18 at 15:39:06 62716667787573717A25140 wrote:
THAT'S IT..... you split an atom ;D |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by IslandRoad on 03/13/18 at 17:24:33 696A7F666A653F330B0 wrote:
I think you added ALOT of energy when you forced the poles together - like compressing a spring. |
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Title: Re: How do you measure energy...???? Post by batman on 03/13/18 at 18:54:46 Islandroad , Your right ! I hadn't considered that. But I still magnetism could be used as a propellant , think Railgun. The Navy has tested one that launches a projectile at Mach-5. On an other note sometime in 2018 there is to be a probe launched that will circle the sun, it is said to achieve a speed of 120 miles/per second , or 432,000 mph.(the fastest man made object in history). |
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