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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
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Message started by Shrulk on 02/27/18 at 22:51:46

Title: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/27/18 at 22:51:46

Still fighting some full throttle issues while riding. 01 with a shorty exhuast bobber project. My air filter is a big UNI cylinder double foam with a sock and about 8 inches of tube from carb to filter. I've tried different jets, float levels, needle adjustments, full carb clean and rebuild. New plug and fresh oil, raptor petcock. At wide open throttle it's stumbling and sputtering, somewhere I read that I may not have enough vacuum due to the big air filter. Thanks in advance

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/18 at 23:05:35

When you open it up it starts gagging or once you get it up to speed?

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Fast 650 on 02/27/18 at 23:31:38

How short is your shorty exhaust? CV carbs are quite sensitive to exhaust changes. Too short or too long will cause similar tuning frustrations.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/27/18 at 23:35:32

It does good in 1st -3rd gear then in 4th and 5th anything over half throttle it's acting up. I can hit about 40 MPH and anything over that is a real struggle. The exhuast is the factory pipe and I removed the muffler and put a GP shorty baffled end on it. So the pipe plus about 8 inches.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Yoshi on 02/28/18 at 03:18:21

What other modifications have you done? Are you running with a stock petcock?

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Dave on 02/28/18 at 04:09:05

I don't believe you can have a filter that is too big.....the vacuum that opens the slide comes from the engine side...not from the air filter side. If the vacuum doesn't build up....the slide drops until it does.

What kind of shorty exhaust? Is the header normal length? Does the muffler just flow straight through?

What jets are you running?

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/28/18 at 08:21:20

I have the raptor petcock, stock header length with a supposed to be baffled shorty turn down. I've tried 147.5 150 152.5 155 157.5 and 160 main jets and a 55 pilot. Tried the needle with the white spacer and with the mod of 3 washers 2 washer 1 washer and no washers from the ryca jet kit. I'll look more into the muffler/ shorty piece and see if there's actually baffles but seems more like a 6 inch glass pack.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/28/18 at 08:22:46

If I ha some one close to my area I'd buy beer and pizza if they could look at it lol. Not opposed to trying a different muffler either just don't want to buy mufflers and have no change.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/28/18 at 08:42:36

What happens in third at 45 mph?

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Dave on 02/28/18 at 09:25:29

1B203A3D2423480 wrote:

If I had some one close to my area I'd buy beer and pizza if they could look at it lol.

I suppose we would to know what "area" you live in.....to know if we are close.

If it is "Area 51"......I won' be able to come over. ;)

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/28/18 at 09:38:16

I'm in Sandy oregon sorry. Little ways away from area 61. I'm usually in 4th at 45 I've never been able to get it on open enough road to run gears topped out. I'll take it out as soon as the rain stops and see about 45 in 3rd.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/28/18 at 11:04:08

I think the smart guys would benefit from that.
The complaint sounds rpm related so let's test at rpm that doesn't work out in fourth in a lower gear and see.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by verslagen1 on 02/28/18 at 12:17:04

1E253F3821264D0 wrote:

Savage Greg of "Savage Companion" fame used to be a member is just north of you. You might look him up. Check the tech section for Savage Companion and hit the email link.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 02/28/18 at 13:53:46

You might just brake down and put a real muffler on, your basically running a straight pipe that makes the header pipe too long. longer header pipes favor low rpm ,that's your problem .your little turn out muffler may be the look you like ,but it won't work no matter how you jet the carb.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 02/28/18 at 14:46:48

I'll look him up thx. If I get the chance I have a couple things to try now and putting a modified stock muffler on is one of them, since it's still in my garage. Thx again to all. Really want to ride this bobber project. Anyone suggest a great sound inexpensive muffler????

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/28/18 at 15:56:16

Dyna, Harley Davidson

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by verslagen1 on 02/28/18 at 22:05:59

If you can't figure it out, the thing to do is back up to stock.
the stock muff would be easiest to put back on.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/01/18 at 08:57:05

If by great sound you mean loud, your in trouble. loud doesn't equal performance. The DYNA muffler is slightly louder, has a deeper tone and less back pressure and is lighter than stock. It 's also easier to tune the carb to, which is why a lot of us use it. It also allows the exhaust wave to expand at the end of the exhaust header (wave tuning) something that your present muffler doesn't ,which is why your bike doesn't run at higher rpms. Any muffler has to be larger in diameter than the header pipe to effect this .

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/01/18 at 09:13:01

The sun's out and I'm almost loaded up on coffee so I'll be trying a few things this morn and if that doesn't change anything then it's back to stock muffler and square one. I do t have to have obnoxious loud the performance is the most important to me, I want to use the bike as a daily as much as I can so running nearly perfect as possible is number 1.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/01/18 at 12:07:26

Alright here's the update......... pulled carb and cleaned a again, checked jets running 55 pilot and 150 main. Adjusted the needle to the spacer mod position, and took off the air filter and put electrical tape over 2/3rd of the opening on my intake tube ( running about 10 inches of high temp silicone tube from filter to carb? Anddddddd she pulls i0 lime friggin nothing. Passes cars Ricky tick and man I'm excited to ride. Still have the shorty exhuast and may need to fine tune just a bit more. Start rolli g throttle and it revs up a bit then come s back down could be clutches too i guess. Thank you all for wvwry idea and piece of knowledge.... time to fab a new filter set up

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/02/18 at 10:51:32

If you're running oil with friction modifiers it's gonna slip.
And screw up.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/02/18 at 12:27:16

Changing your air filter will do nothing, What is the spacer mod position?Placing tape over the inlet hose cut air flow into the carb ,which increased the vacuum in the carb body pulling more fuel from the jets( your jetting is still to lean!) You need to be running 55pilot,2 #4 washers on the needle, and a 152.5 or 155main.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/02/18 at 18:11:19

I made a bit of a restrictor plat for my intake tube to create the vacuum it needs. I am running a 50 pilot and 150 main and thw needle has adjustable slots on it and im running that i the middle slot which appears to be what the white spacer mod would be at. The oil is just 4 stroke motorcycle 10w-40 castrol. Ill go throw the 152.5 jet in it and ride to work to night and see where im at there

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Dave on 03/03/18 at 03:04:57

063D2720393E550 wrote:

I made a bit of a restrictor plat for my intake tube to create the vacuum it needs.

The engine/carb doesn't need a restriction on the inlet side of the carb - what you have done may be helping to mask a problem that is caused by something else.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/03/18 at 04:02:20

The oil is just 4 stroke motorcycle 10w-40 castrol.

I wouldn't want it.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 04:33:21

I'm having very similar symptoms with a large cone air filter. It runs and idles just fine up until the point where it should be opening up the slide, and spits and sputters. I borrowed your idea of forcing restriction and taped up about 3/4 of the filter element starting at the end working back toward the opening. 1 wrap of fuel width duct tape helped, another overlapping wrap closing 3/4 of the filter off seems to have cured the symptom.

I'm running a 55 pilot jet and a 155 main. 2 spacer washers on the slide needle. Rotella T4.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/06/18 at 14:21:58

Rode the bike to work last night and home today, ran like a champ on the 152.5 main and 50 pilot with white spacer mod. Another stupid question I'm sorry but my header pipe is turning almost like a goodish black.... round trip about 40 miles and used about half tank.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/06/18 at 14:23:17

5D766C776D6A71782F2D4A1E0 wrote:

Hopefully that is the fix but sounds like we have other issues. I put some theory into my idea and to me it makes sense but i hope im right and not sterring you down the wrong path.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/07/18 at 11:11:17

Shrulk , so your pipe's turning colors ! guess you should go back and read my last comment in your post -wide open woes.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/07/18 at 12:22:43

I'll throw the 155 main jet in it and try it. Thx. It's not turning blues it's turning goodish tones so I didn't know if that meant it was rich or about normal.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Dave on 03/07/18 at 12:36:06

The darker the color - the higher the temperature.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/07/18 at 13:10:58

The goodish color started after the rejet

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/07/18 at 23:54:08

The pipe turns golden first ,then blue. It can blue because the fuel mix is either to rich or to lean. because your running a restricted inlet ,and a "muffler" we're not familiar with , it's hard to tell which. If you were running the stock muffler ,and seeing your elevation is 981 ft. above sea level, I'd say you were jetted way to rich, but with your muffler acting like a straight pipe you may be to lean. If you replace it with the stock muffler or go to a DYNA it would be easy to advise proper jetting.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/08/18 at 09:55:21

Rode with the 155 main jet yesterday and it smells rich. Like I can smell that gassy exhuast smell and the top end feels a bit sluggish. The" muffler" is a radiant cycle GP shorty. Also have to replace the raptor thingy as I found out when changing the jet yesterday when in the off position I still have about 50% fuel flow unless I pinch the gas hose or hold the float up.... this is starting to be like my powerstroke one thing after another lol

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/08/18 at 14:34:36

Batman, I owe you a bit of a apology. I pulled the restriction plate out and ran it with just the same basic principle of the factory tube and my big filter and it ran about the same as it did with my science experiment. Not as peppy as it was when you soon grip but it still has no problem pulling 75mph..... I didn't have room to get passed that thank you for all the help

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/08/18 at 18:48:38

Shrulk ,I'm at a about the same elevation as you are, If your going to commute to work then mileage may become important to you. With a stock 52.5 pilot 3 #4 washers, and a 150main jet and a Dyna muffler, I get mid to high 40's for mileage ,some thing I don't think you'll be getting with your present setup, you might want to be checking. Your bike felt more peppy before because slightly lean fuel mixes actually make more horsepower, but risk damage to the valves from running to hot and blue your exhaust pipe. (Stores like Walmart sell products like BlueAway , that will restore your pipe back to chrome.)

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/08/18 at 20:07:09

I don't care about the color of the pipe it gives it character, I do care that I run it so it doesn't get damaged. The mileage is a bit important but 20 bucks a week is way better than 80 bucks in diesel. When it was running bad I had longer piping from the carb to filter with a 90 degree bend and the the filter came out behind the battery box out the side of the bike a bit. Now it's close to stock intake pipe length and the filter is more hidden under the seat. I wonder if my issue was something in the ports of the carb. When I pulled the carb I blew everythi h out again. I can't explain why it was bad before and now is pretty awesome. It idles good, starts right up every time, almost never have and popping or backfire or aftercare or what ever ppl call it now. Revs great and scoots along at 75 all day long.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/08/18 at 20:21:10

You were lean ,now your not . backfire out the tail pipe is caused by running to lean and occurs when you close the throttle too fast, the" Puff" at shut off is also stronger , the mix is to lean to fire, and the motor's still spinning and pushes the raw fuel into the hot exhaust header that ignites it. The reason you smelled gas when you first put the 155 jet in was you had your restrictor in place which made it function like a 200 jet ,you had way to much fuel and not enough air to burn it all ,so raw gas was coming out the tailpipe.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by eau de sauvage on 03/08/18 at 20:32:39

Alternative to blue away... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002R4U7G4 this is the correct length for the S40 and looks excellent.

@Batman, mid to high 40's? that doesn't seem very good. We were getting minimum of 50 and that was running a bit rich, I've since put the needle back to the middle position, it was on the lowest of 3.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by Shrulk on 03/08/18 at 20:42:28

I may have the pipe cerakoted if I still have my conections to the work.
The wrap does look pretty cool.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by batman on 03/08/18 at 21:01:23

EDS ,my bike has never gotten over 48 mpg since new (1995) mid 40's is what I get on the superslab at 70-75 mph. a lot of people think they get higher mileage but they don't account for speedometer error, I may be getting higher as I always run 140/90/15 tires ,but without a gps speedo who knows? That and the fact that I'm riding two up ,with a combined weight of 345lbs ,95% of the time tends to limit mileage. That and I always run a bit rich to prevent after fire at shut down ,95's came with a 5 speed but the anti - kickback starter gear didn't come on the bikes until 96.

I'm a bit leery of heat raps ,I've always wondered if the water and dirt that gets trapped into them eats away at the pipe over time, and I like being able to see the color of my pipe ,I don't have a temperature gauge.I'm not sure if it won't change exhaust wave tuning, or increase after fire at shutdown.

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by eau de sauvage on 03/08/18 at 21:58:18

@batman... with a combined weight of 345lbs

Ha, yes that would go some way to explaining it!

@Shrulk, yes it does look splendid, and the DEI brand does not require soaking, and apparently it does not require any silicone spray as It's been on for at least six months with no deterioration at all. Also I put a laser IR thermometer right on the header as it exits the exhaust and even on a near 100F day of stop start riding it was only reading 400F

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by IslandRoad on 03/08/18 at 23:26:49

Eau, was the thermometer sitting on the heat wrap, or do you have a little bit of exposed pipe up there?

Title: Re: Too big of an air cleaner?!?!?!
Post by eau de sauvage on 03/09/18 at 00:12:42

6E544B46494375484643270 wrote:

Eau, was the thermometer sitting on the heat wrap, or do you have a little bit of exposed pipe up there?

IR, It's a IR thermometer non contact. I aimed at what would be the hottest part of the bike that you can get to. Combustion temp is over 750ºC and it does not seem to get more than 200ºC at the hottest part of the exhaust on a hot day. I've aimed the thermometer into the engine through the oil fill plug and it's about 100C.

Let's be honest it's just about looks and I can't see that any increase in temperature results. It may even help heat to radiate away judging from some charts I was looking at recently which I can't find. But it's surprising to see that a black object gets rid of heat better than a shiny metal.

I've heard reservations about damaging the pipe but I can't see why it would unless you leave your bike in the rain. Put some on IR, you know you want to... ;¬)

I've got the heat shield off but I might get it black chromed and put it back, there's a bit of burned rubber on it. But I don't really mind that.

http://https://s9.postimg.org/jfxeizl4r/IMG_1311.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/jfxeizl4r/)