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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1517937086 Message started by Oldfeller on 02/06/18 at 09:11:25 |
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Title: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/06/18 at 09:11:25 https://futurism.com/discovered-72-galaxies-alien-worlds/ This means brand new Galaxies (72 at current count) ...... Seeing yet Further back in Time (the Big Bang is getting debated all over again because we can now see back further now -- past the time the Big Bang theoretically occured) And the news of the week -- Planets are seen in other galaxies for the first time https://futurism.com/first-time-ever-scientists-found-alien-worlds-another-galaxy/ click it, it is a YouTube https://youtu.be/emNAxv8_aXU click it, it is a YouTube |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/06/18 at 10:23:47 Is that a link to a YouTube? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/06/18 at 13:42:35 They talk of using this new technology to expand the search for life. They do not understand that their search for life is misdirected. There is only ONE life for which we are to search, and He is God. Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other." |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by verslagen1 on 02/06/18 at 13:44:25 It's missionary work. ;) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/06/18 at 15:27:11 They're using Earthbound scopes and they can get those images through the atmosphere? I thought only something outside the atmosphere could accomplish anything close to that. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by eau de sauvage on 02/07/18 at 01:19:42 @oldfeller, Seeing yet Further back in Time (the Big Bang is getting debated all over again because we can now see back further now -- past the time the Big Bang theoretically occured) There's no such thing as 'before' the BB, seeing as that was the beginning of SpaceTime. We can't even 'see' further back than the CMBr, unless we are able to get neutrino telescopes working. Here's a good site for sciencey stuff https://phys.org |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/07/18 at 02:27:11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMr7vaJJXGI its a YouTube, so click on it and watch it As they peer deeper into the various Deep Field "empty spots" with better orbital telescopes and new Muse ground combined light and radio telescope techniques, they are seeing things that ARE MUCH MUCH further away (and project much much further back in time based on the speed of light) than they had originally calculated the big bang origin time to be (based upon a constant expansion coefficient and a constant speed of light). They now know that the expansion coefficient is variable and suspect that the speed of light may actually change slightly due to matter density and that the rate of expansion of space time can take place at rates of millions of times the speed of light. The original Deep Field has been joined by 6 other places where you can peer in deep -- in diametrically different directions too. Thus, the size of Everything has increased by several whole multiple thousands of times just lately. The killer is that the better eyes still see the same density of stuff out there still, so that is pushing back the thought that they were seeing infant galaxies that are just barely pre-bang ---- and the scientists are sorta unhappy at seeing Big Bang Theory disrupted like that. They liked the Big Bang, it was all neat and all inclusive -- but it was just wrong just like many other theories. This is forcing thoughts on 1) its all been around much longer than we thought before 2) speed of expansion is INCREASING as the expansion density is decreasing or mebbe the speed of light constant can vary based on the changes in the general curvature of space getting different as "star density" decreases due to expansion or 3) we need some sort of new type of Big Bang theory that better fits all these new facts. They are beginning to say that space-time itself expanded much much faster than the speed of light very early on, and it is still clocking expansion rates far greater than the speed of light out at the edges of things. And on top of that, space time is folded like a blanket, multiple layers of folds. With black holes (worm holes) going in between the layers. They are still looking for a puking exit hole as they see lots and lots and lots and lots of entry holes but no exit holes. And yup, dark matter and dark energy are still just a set of theoretical fudges created to make it all work out mathematically, nobody has ever really found any "dark matter" nor even any dark particles and they can't even agree on what dark energy supposedly does. The big colliders have failed to make a single particle or wave or anything "dark matter" related. Gravity isn't considered a simple force any more, it is local changes in the curvature of space-time. This is why Gravitational Lens effects take place on light from stacked stars is bent by the near star and you can use that to see the little sub-bumps that are the planets "little bitty gravitational lens effects". Gravitational lensing is not new, it has been around a while. It is being used to detect planets around stars that can already be seen by existing telescopes. Now that the gravitational lensing trick can be computer automated to look repeatedly at all known "stacked stars" they are scanning the near galaxies for earthlike planets orbiting these stacked stars as "first stops to go to" once we have a good enough way to get there. We have found 10s of thousands of various size and distance planets orbiting the known stacked stars and have found 11 planets so far that are inside the Goldilocks Zone (habitable temp zones) that also give a hydrogen/nitrogen/oxygen/carbon primary content signature to their light. They think hydrogen/oxygen at that temperature can mean liquid water, and oxygen that is free from nitrogen and carbon means some form of life is separating them as it metabolizes. Guys, remember back when we were in elementary school? 9 planets around our own sun was it, we were missing an entire bottom row off the periodic table, 2-4 galaxies existed in space making up a universe of known finite size? Known age of everything, During our lifetimes we have watched the huge debate about Big Bang vs Constant Expanding/Contracting Universe "resolved" by use of better telescopes, now new techniques and better/bigger scopes both on the ground and in space have opened all these settled debates back up with brand new information that busts up the current "settled thoughts". Scientists say now that it takes the energy and "time to develop" of very old exploding stars (nova strength or better) to make up some of the elements that are found on earth, so we personally are made up of stuff (carbon, nitrogen, oxygen) that has gone through at least one or two stellar generations. The gold in my wedding band is a post supernova residue ..... the really big stars pop really really hard when they age out and most of the goodies produced goes down the black hole that instantly forms anyway (and where exactly does that down the black hole matter go, ie how did my gold get recycled?). I can remember age of the universe being pegged at IT IS ALL BASED ON WHAT SCIENTISTS THINK and they are constantly having to rethink things based upon what they now know "post discovery". Human "knowledge" is expanding by doubling every 3 years and I think it expands again by replacement due to new theories being proposed and accepted every 20-50 years. Newtonian Physics (gravity as a force) is now totally disproven and has been replaced by curved space effects. Light was a wave, now it is a quanta of energy that can behave like a wave or like a particle, depending on circumstances (like how you are detecting it). Current Example: LENR is stumbling across new radiation and electromagnetic "strange effects" that can cause steel and aluminum to soften and change over relatively short distances and over short periods of near exposure and go right through lead and other dense materials like they are not there. Effects are distance controlled though, they don't propagate very far. Questions and more questions -- propagate through WHAT exactly? How? Like Gravity and Magnetism, the new strange effects stuff is inverse square law distance limited apparently. Think of poor Marie Curie and how she found out about the effects of radioactive emissions from radium, the hard way. Both she and Rossi have had to wear a wig in public towards the end because their hair all fell out ..... The Hadron Collider people are saying to the Rossi experimenters "You found WHAT ??? That effect requires electron beam strengths of xxx,000,000 joules to create in the Large Hadron chamber and you are seeing it on a table top in your garage using wall socket power ????? You sir, are nuts ...." Science is constantly being disrupted now-a-days and all the old gray beards who run the universities and major labs are resisting all this change just as much as they can, as they are becoming mentally "out of date/ignorant" yearly and their egos simply can't take it. Their august positions are also at risk from forced retirement due to "not being up to current knowledge standards" and they don't like that idea at all either ..... :-/ Always Remember, AC power can't possibly work because the electrons just jiggle back and forth and they don't go very far in their jiggle motions. AC is really only useful for electrocuting old circus elephants. Those bicycle shop boys are nuts, that thing can NEVER fly. Sure, its safe to let the kids follow close behind the mosquito fogger truck on their bicycles, it's just a very dilute mist of water, DDT and some Chlordane -- much lighter than what you spray on your apple tree or your vegetable gardens. Lighter than a can of Raid by a long shot, them skeeters are really easy to kill compared to a cockroach ..... ::) Change, she comes ....... |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/24/18 at 18:01:09 https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2018/02/23/if-the-universe-is-13-8-billion-years-old-how-can-we-see-46-billion-light-years-away/#168b40f13032 If The Universe Is 13.8 Billion Years Old, How Can We See 46 Billion Light Years Away in all directions? (an effective diameter of 92 Billion Light Years limited only by our current telescopes) There are a few fundamental facts about the Universe — its origin, its history, and what it is today — that are awfully hard to wrap your head around. One of them is the Big Bang, or the idea that the Universe began a certain time ago: 13.8 billion years ago to be precise -- a number we now know to be wrong. That's the first moment we can describe the Universe as we know it to be today: full of matter and radiation, and the ingredients that would eventually grow into stars, galaxies, planets and human beings. So how far away can we see? You might think, in a Universe limited by the speed of light, that would be 13.8 billion light years: the age of the Universe multiplied by the speed of light. But 13.8 billion light years is far too small to be the right answer. In actuality, we can now see for 46 billion light years in all directions with current telescopes, for a total diameter of 92 billion light years. Read the article and get your mind expanded past your boggle point. So, the Big Bang Size/Age of the Universe Theory has been mortally wounded by multiple brand new telescopes and "the age of everything" is being completely reviewed right now, leading to two very major "conflicting" Dark Matter and Dark Energy fudge factors and three (3) very different big bang replacement theories. The simplest theory of the 3 new ones (which BTW jives with new knowledge that much of the matter that makes people up [carbon, nitrogen, etc] needed to be born in a nova or a supernova explosion) is that 1) the Universe is much much much bigger than we ever imagined and 2) the Universe much much much older than we ever imagined. Microscopic Life likely was out in the dust clouds all along from ages immoral and Life has rained down on the earth with small ocean bound inbound meteorites all along. This jives with the "styles of life" seen at deep ocean vents and us, up on the top of things. Lots of different styles of seed life coming in all the time, hey all they need is to find a good spot for their style of life and they jest take off .... ::) Forbes is the first news group to really report in detail on this latest cosmic theory "re-do" but this current generation of people joins us old-timers in the "it was all different when I was a kid" syndrome. =================================================== Space life now recognized as existing here on Earth https://gizmodo.com/genes-hold-the-key-to-the-water-bears-indestructibility-1786814698 http://https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--PiVxjeI3--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/nayhz81r2ew64qvcrtd8.png http://https://i.pinimg.com/736x/67/78/52/677852a9c109f0487fff5f96219f3960--tardigrade-animal-anatomy.jpg Tardigrades are strangely adorable microscopic creatures that are capable of withstanding some of the worst that nature can throw at them. Classified as “extremophiles,” they can survive freezing, total dehydration, radiation, and even the vacuum of space. Tardigrades are an ancient species that diverged from ancestral animals back in the pre-Cambrian period (~600 million years ago), and likely evolved their own unique genes over a protracted period of time. Read the article -- it has novel combination of the characteristics of plants, animals, fungi, bacteria and viruses. It has newly recognized characteristics that geneticists are eager to transplant into other plants and animals. And yes, it can survive the radiation levels and solar winds of deep space and no one has found a limit to how long it can stay alive when incysted (it actually bends our definition of alive when incysted). And scientists keep finding their tough little corpses in deep bore cores going back to the origins of life here on Earth ..... ::) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/24/18 at 18:39:53 https://www.itsokaytobesmart.com/post/80070750453/eat-your-tardigrades-or-you-dont-get-dessert http://https://www.sciencealert.com/images/Osos_de_Agua_puede_sobrevivir_sin_comida_ni_agua_durante_m_s_de_una_d_cada3wodo1_400.gif You know this little guy, right? It’s the mighty tardigrade, as featured in the new Cosmos. Tardigrades, also known as water bears, also known as FREAKIN’ MOSS PIGLETS, are microscopic eight-legged animals that can withstand temperatures from near absolute zero to boiling water, absorb extreme doses of radiation, go without food or water for ten years, and even survive the vacuum of space. They can even be completely dried out and ride on the wind to a new home, where they rehydrate and go about their tardibusiness. Tardigrade rain, folks. In other words, they are BAMFs (bad-ass microfauna). Oh, and you’ve probably eaten them. Thanks to Meg Lowman, I found out that these water-dwelling super-critters live not only on wild mosses and wet plants, but on grocery store produce like lettuce and spinach. Do you think that a mere rinse or shake under the faucet (or even cooking) is enough to dislodge a radiation-eating space pig? Ha! Not by a long shot, according to Lowman. So yeah… trying to go strictly vegetarian? You’ve almost certainly eaten some tardigrades. Sorry. Don’t worry, though. They’re totally harmless. I like to imagine that when I eat them, I absorb their power, and become a little bit mightier. New motto: For strength, eat your vegetables and eat your tardigrades. Boiling water won't kill them ...... They are in every salad bar in the country ...... ...... a huge meteor hitting the earth and boiling off all the oceans would just toss tardigrades out into space where they would incyst and go dormant. http://www.astronoo.com/en/news/tardigrade.html Waterbears can be immortal. The tardigrades or water bears are tiny animals, between 0.1 mm and 1.5 mm, and multicellular invertebrates. The cub of water the tardigrade name means "slow walker" is named by Lazzaro Spallanzani in 1777. ... However, some of these animals have managed to "repair" themselves to survive. ================================================== https://www.sciencealert.com/the-tardigrade-genome-has-been-sequenced-and-it-has-the-most-foreign-dna-of-any-animal Scientists have sequenced the entire genome of the tardigrade, AKA the water bear, for the first time. And their results suggest that this weird little creature has the most foreign genes of any animal studied so far – or to put it another way, roughly one-sixth of the tardigrade's genome was stolen from other species. We have to admit, we're kinda not surprised. A little background here for those who aren’t familiar with the strangeness that is the tardigrade – the microscopic water creature grows to just over 1 mm on average, and is the only animal that can survive in the harsh environment of space. It can also withstand temperatures from just above absolute zero to well above the boiling point of water, can cope with ridiculous amounts of pressure and radiation, and can live for more than 10 years without food or water. Basically, it's nearly impossible to kill, and now scientists have shown that its DNA is just as bizarre as it is. So what's foreign DNA and why does it matter that tardigrades have so much of it? The term refers to genes that have come from another organism via a process known as horizontal gene transfer, as opposed to being passed down through traditional reproduction. Horizontal gene transfer occurs in humans and other animals occasionally, usually as a result of gene swapping with viruses, but to put it into perspective, most animals have less than 1 percent of their genome made up of foreign DNA. Before this, the rotifer – another microscopic water creature – was believed to have the most foreign genes of any animal, with 8 or 9 percent. But the new research has shown that approximately 6,000 of the tardigrade’s genes come from foreign species, which equates to around 17.5 percent. “We had no idea that an animal genome could be composed of so much foreign DNA,” said study co-author Bob Goldstein, from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. “We knew many animals acquire foreign genes, but we had no idea that it happens to this degree.” So where is the tardigrade getting all its genes from? The foreign DNA comes primarily from bacteria, but also from plants, fungi, and Archaea. And it’s this incredible variety of genes that researchers suggest has allowed the water bear to survive in such extreme conditions. “Animals that can survive extreme stresses may be particularly prone to acquiring foreign genes – and bacterial genes might be better able to withstand stresses than animal ones,” said one of the researchers, Thomas Boothby. The team hasn't investigated exactly how this gene-stealing is happening just yet, but they propose that it's a result of one of the tardigrade's other crazy survival mechanisms – the ability to dry out until its body is less than 3 percent water, and then come bounce back once they're rehydrated. When this desiccation happens, scientists know that their DNA breaks down into tiny pieces. They also know that when their cells rehydrate, there's a point in time when the cell nucleus is leaky, allowing DNA and other molecules to pass through. That means that while the tardigrade is quickly patching up its own genome, it may accidentally be stitching in another organism's genes. Twist your Mind time ..... Run this backwards and think of tardigrades as outer space somethings that everything eats that can transfer genetic material across species. And the junk portion of its DNA apparently does some things we have no friggin' clue as to what those things are or what they actually do or where the heck they came from ..... :o |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/24/18 at 19:18:13 And what does this all mean? God is a lot bigger and his creation is a lot more complex than any sheep herder could ever comprehend or communicate ..... even when God took the time and broke it down small for his prophets they had no words or concepts for what they were being shown. This includes very educated genius level folks like Daniel, who was very likely the smartest guy alive at the time. And this holds true still for our best buzz brains of today ...... It still all points to God, and his creation is amazing, really amazing. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by norm92de on 02/24/18 at 20:36:03 I think there is something that you do not understand. The universe is 6000 years old! It says so in the bible. And if you believe that-- you know the bridge story don't you. ;D |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/24/18 at 22:09:04 The morning and the evening of the first day ...... The morning and the evening of the first period of time ...... Moses wrote in the words that he had, to explain what he was shown. He did the best he could do with what he had to work with. Books have been written paralleling the Big Bang with Moses's Creation timeline, transposing billions of years for days. Moses was the educated foster son of a Pharaoh, who then spent most of his life herding sheep in the desert speaking a fairly primitive form of Hebrew in which he wrote the Book of Genesis. Now they are saying much of the expansion of the Universe and the actual formation of matter from energy took place inside the first hours after the Big Bang. Then there was a thick soup (or sea) of sub-particles and stuff formed that had to expand and cool off before atoms of hydrogen could form and this took a while to happen ..... Then this thin vapor of matter was slowly condensed by gravity and suns were formed ..... suns that lit up, grew old and blew up. Repeatedly. Reforming from the dust of the last set of stars and some new hydrogen that was out floating free in space. And Man eventually was formed from the dust of the earth --- stardust --- carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, iron and various other heavier forms of stardust that came from the bigger supernovas. You want to see some stardust, look at your hand -- pure quill stardust. Your real issue is with the timelines involved, not the creator or the creation. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/25/18 at 00:12:49 62637E61353E68690C0 wrote:
Does it now? Where? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/25/18 at 00:40:18 Romans 1:18-22, 25 18-22 For God’s holy wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth. For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God Himself has shown it to them. For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made. So men are without excuse, altogether without any defense or justification, because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and they made simpletons of themselves..... 25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen. Some followup questions: DNA is a coil-like structure of thousands of genes, and each gene made up of only 4 components...just 4. So who came up with the idea for that and arranged them in such a manner ? It is a rather complex arrangement, yes ? How many forms of life are there ? Does anyone know? Aren't they finding new ones every day ? From single cell amoeba to this multi cell "water pig" (cute little feller) to human beings ... did they really just form from the dust of space arbitrarillly ? And where did space come from ? Where did the elements of which assorted atoms throughout all space are made come from ? Who formed and then lit the fires in trillions of stars ? What force holds all the protons in a nucleus of an atom together ? They are all positively charged particles and should be repelling each other with an enormous force, so what holds them ? Think of what happens when some of those atoms are cracked open...think hydrogen bomb...very small amount of matter yields a H U G E release of energy. How many atoms are in the entire universe ? What kind of power is required to hold the universe together, every second of every day, from the day they were created. What would happen if whoever is holding things together decided to release that hold ? That would be a VERY BIG BANG. Where did YOU come from ? Who put breath in your lungs ? Who started your heart beating when you were the size of a large pea ? Where did your soul come from ? Your spirit ? Have you ever considered these kinds of things ? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/25/18 at 15:04:05 I'd sure like to spend time with you. You explore existential questions without allowing anything you've been Told to hold you back. You allow the mysteries to inspire your curiosity. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by norm92de on 02/25/18 at 16:13:33 Justin, My irony was not apparent. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/25/18 at 17:55:13 293630372A2D1C2C1C24363A71430 wrote:
Ride on up if you like, we have spare rooms, heat and air, hot and cold running water, cutting edge everything for creature comforts, mattresses and blankets. I know you are wondering but it's not a Trump Tower. Almost forgot something, a leaky barn. [ch128513][ch127949][ch128526] |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/25/18 at 22:48:28 2425382773782E2F4A0 wrote:
The Bible doesn't say it explicitly. The Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656) added up the lifespan of the people mentioned in the genealogies in the Bible (starting with Adam), and calculated the age of the Earth as about 6000 years. For some people, his work seems to be gospel. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/26/18 at 03:25:24 59637C717E74427F7174100 wrote:
The Bible doesn't say it explicitly. The Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656) added up the lifespan of the people mentioned in the genealogies in the Bible (starting with Adam), and calculated the age of the Earth as about 6000 years. For some people, his work seems to be gospel.[/quote] Not Gospel but the is significant scientific evidence to support the assertion. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 07:44:25 I guess it was significant scientific evidence at the turn of the 17th century, but there has been a lot more data gathered since then. I would argue that science and knowledge have developed considerably since then, and the 6000 year hypothesis is no longer tenable. In fact the period in which Ussher lived was a turning point in the development of astronomy. The astronomer Tycho Brahe developed instrumentation that provided a level of precision in measuring astronomical distances that had never been seen before, and his contemporary, Johannes Kepler, produced calculations for the orbit of the planets which are still influential today in launching satellites into orbit. Some have argued that Isaac Newton had probably read Kepler's work prior to producing his inverse square formula for gravity. This was the beginning of the end for the concept of the 'heavenly spheres', which the early church fathers had developed, based on ancient Greek philosophy. From the 16th century onward the understanding of the sheer scale of the universe expanded further with each new discovery. The images produced by the Hubble telescope perhaps provided the next 'leap' in appreciating that scale. With that scale of distance, the scale of time also expanded necessarily. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by T And T Garage on 02/26/18 at 08:10:21 5D7E7674777E7E7760120 wrote:
Oldfeller - I have to say - awesome posts! It's great to see your insightful posts and your intelligent takes on the information. Although I'm agnostic, I like how you lay out planck time in accordance with the bible - I get it, but as we keep finding out, Man has little grasp on that period of existence. (not to mention that we have no real way of quantifying our existence/God/intent, etc.) However, you put it together in a very compelling way! Not to say that I'm gonna go and join up with a church anytime soon, but your posts actually do enforce the idea that we as humans are just trying to find our way/purpose/meaning in this fleeting micro-minute period of time. To me, that's the basis of all religions (flawed, though they might be) . Keep up the great posts! |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/26/18 at 08:15:56 Two clocks with the same time, send one into space and keep one here. After it flies for a while bring it back; do the still have the same time ? No. How is time bent like that ? If time is bent then space can be bent. You have read about worm holes and black holes and the suppositions concerning them I'm sure. What does that do to our speculations from the surface of this tiny planet ? Look at how much changed when the Hubble went just barely outside our atmosphere ? A lot of ideas we changed about things. How much is there to learn if we could just get to the closest star to us ? What is the diameter of the universe that we can see so far ? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 08:59:48 There are a lot of questions there Lancer :o And most of them, I am not qualified to answer. But they do prompt some thoughts about the nature of knowledge. I'll respond a little, mostly just to explore the ideas. You are correct: space and time are bent. That is not a new concept. In fact, since Einstein, space and time have been considered inseparable. Hence the term 'space/time'. Speculations about black holes can be extrapolated from our knowledge that a clock in space records a different 'speed' of time than a clock on the Earth's surface. In fact, it has been demonstrated that a clock at the top of a tower reads time at a different rate to one in the basement. That is another example of the value of developments in precision instrumentation. The mass of an object bends space, in the same way a bowling ball creates a dip in the surface of a trampoline. The more mass, the more space/time is compressed. In astronomical terms, the Earth is not very dense (massive). Therefore the compression in space/time is comparatively small. Black holes are massive, therefore the compression in space/time is astounding. I am already reaching beyond my ability to speak authoritatively on that subject. So I'll stop there. I agree, a lot of ideas have changed. However, in astronomy, they tend to change in the same direction, not back and forth. Astronomers, and other scientists tend to be very conservative. Early astronomers were trying to find evidence for what they thought was a finite universe: the Earth was at the centre, there were nine celestial bodies, and then the sphere of the stars. As they collected better data and better mathematical methods, they learned that it was bigger than they thought. Eventually they realised the Sun was not at the centre of the universe, but rather, it was just one star among many. This had been hypothesized by philosophers such as Rene Descartes and Giordano Bruno. The latter was burned at the stake by the church for heresy. The question of steady state, versus expanding universe was answered pretty well by the discoveries of the Hubble telescope, and calculations based on the red-shift of light travelling over distances. The universe is not only almost unimaginably big, it is also flying apart at an incredible speed. Yes knowledge on the subject has changed, but as I mentioned earlier, the changes have always been in the same direction. The more we learn, the bigger it gets. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by raydawg on 02/26/18 at 09:30:53 Question: What element controls man’s destiny? How can we become our unique self, without some other ingredient? If it was matter, like a recipe, that creates the human body, why can’t these elements, in totality, be seen within my body chemistry? Seems to me a very important piece of the puzzle, has yet to be answered, scientifically.....???? What happens to all those elements that are within my ability to create if I mate, does it die with my flesh? How can, what is not, or never has been, die, yet, it was scripted, somehow, to be able? It has to be more than just my seed, for the tool that is used to applicate it isn’t BIG enuff to hold all that possibilities ;D Anybody want to field my question? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 11:50:21 63706875706676110 wrote:
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/18 at 11:52:38 4E434C4147501015220 wrote:
92 Billion light years in diameter, as of this week anyway. We can see "46 Billion radial years back in time" in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far). Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old. ...... durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know ...... When the new "Hubble type" larger space telescope gets all set up and working good expect it to all change up all over again. Or one of the new even larger ground based arrays gets up and going ....... same thing -- bigger/older. Just count on the size and the "age" to increase and the various nutso theories and unproven un-seen & unidentified dark stuff fudges get wilder and wilder and wilder. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/18 at 12:27:58 I mentioned "strange energy" that is known about and acknowledged by the Hadron Collider people who are just shocked that LENR guys are seeing it in their little bitty no account low power LENR rig ups. We got 4 LENR experimenters partially confirming this with different viewpoints and certainly different equipment and rigs. Watch this video, make no assumptions it really is a hunk of pure black iron that partially changed its physical properties -- think of it as a block of plastic if you like. I am personally a lot more comfortable thinking it to be a block of styrofoam or plastic, really ...... HOWEVER, if you look at the after pictures, sure looks like "something" that got real real hot and some force TWISTED it and collapsed it in on itself. The table didn't scorch or melt --- we are being told the rectangular block stayed at close to room temperature. My disbelief is really really high on this one, as if it is real then we don't know SQUAT about metals and atoms and lattices etc. etc. This smells like a shill being rung in by a skeptopath to cloud and distract people -- but who knows, someone in LENR will try to replicate it to verify or to deny it. :P https://youtu.be/4-YwbgXpnkA |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/26/18 at 12:57:13 [/color] 694A4240434A4A4354260 wrote:
92 Billion light years in diameter, as of this week anyway. We can see "46 Billion radial years back in time" in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far). Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old. ...... durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know ...... [/quote] Yup |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 13:18:17 0E030C0107105055620 wrote:
92 Billion light years in diameter, as of this week anyway. We can see "46 Billion radial years back in time" in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far). Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old. ...... durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know ...... [/quote] Yup[/quote] There's a difference between 'how far we can see' and the outer limits of the 'observable universe'. The term 'observable universe' is a technical term referring to a limitation created by the speed of light. Furthermore, due to the expansion of the universe (which was not subject to the limits of the speed of light), it is possible to see things, as they were at one point in time, but which are now further away than we will ever be able to see - we just see them as they were when the light left them. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by T And T Garage on 02/26/18 at 13:26:13 645E414C43497F424C492D0 wrote:
[smiley=thumbsup.gif]+1 |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by T And T Garage on 02/26/18 at 13:30:14 6E4D4547444D4D4453210 wrote:
92 Billion light years in diameter, as of this week anyway. We can see "46 Billion radial years back in time" in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far). Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old. ...... durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know ...... When the new "Hubble type" larger space telescope gets all set up and working good expect it to all change up all over again. Yep - just wait until JWST!! Or one of the new even larger ground based arrays gets up and going ....... same thing -- bigger/older. Just count on the size and the "age" to increase and the various nutso theories and unproven un-seen & unidentified dark stuff fudges get wilder and wilder and wilder. [/quote] [smiley=thumbup.gif] |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/26/18 at 15:35:04 Has anyone speculated on the speed at which the universe is expanding ? Seems of late they (scientific community) have decided that it is not slowing down. So is it steady state or increasing ? And, if the speed is changing, has it always been at the same rate ? I don't think we have a clue. Looking at an image across billions of light years and thinking we have figured out how to measure something out there that is no longer where we thought is was ? Seems like trying to shoot ducks with a blind fold on and wearing one of those silencing headsets. Light year... traveling at 186,000 miles/second. So one year gives us 5,865,696,000,000 miles traveled in one year. And the current known universe is 92 billion light years. So almost 5.8x10 to the 12th X 92x10 to the 9th = 5.4x10 to the 21st. Rounded off of course. So we are looking at 54 followed by 20 zero's miles. Can anyone count that high ? And yet, everytime we build another Super Scope we just see more and more and more and more. And that is in every direction we look. If you go from a diameter of 46 billion light years to the current 92 billions light years, how much in total volume does the known universe grow ? Volume of sphere: http://www.bing.com/th?id=Gbfs%5Cgeometry_figure%5Csphere_volume.png&pid=BingWidget If my algebra is correct that comes to 5.1x10 to the 25th cubic miles for a 46 billion light year universe, compared to 4.1x10 to the 26th for a 92 billion light year universe. Is that about 10 times larger when doubling the diameter ? Kind of makes your brain tired. It is big, and if we do get another look farther out there we will see still more. Which brings us back to the question...where did all of this stuff come from ? All sorts of elements, made of tinier elements, made of tinier elements. It gets down to the level of just energy; energy at various levels yields different things. And speaking of energy, where did that come from ? And what keeps it going ? Whether for 7-10,000 years or billions of years ? Where is it from and what keeps it going ? |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 16:20:20 Lancer, your question assumes it comes from somewhere. My brain hurts alot less if I assume 'it' is infinite and eternal (although, words like 'when', 'where' and 'eternal' can't really be applied to anything before the Big Bang - but we're stuck with our language which is embedded in Space/Time along with us). I'm pretty sure we'll never know everything. But I'm happy to take my imagination along the path that, what we do know, points to. :) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by raydawg on 02/26/18 at 16:23:16 Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Reply #24 - Today at 11:50:21 Alert Board Moderator about this Post! Quote raydawg wrote on Today at 09:30:53: Question: What element controls man’s destiny? The phrasing of that question assumes its own answer. The term 'destiny' implies there is some sort of control. Maybe there isn't. Then why search? Merely a sport, a challenge, like fishing, or bar cruising? :D If not destiny, then no motivation? I believe our biggest quest is to overcome time. It seems the one constant that limits, and constrains, man to his reality, which, is always changing based upon needs and perceptions. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/18 at 23:16:24 Rate of expansion of Space/Time is a non-question as distance and speed only occurs INSIDE space time. Trying to apply Space/Time rules to the expansion of Space/Time is a mis-application and results in things like this. Space/Time obviously expanded at a "rate" of HUNDREDS of Thousands of times the speed of light during the early Big Bang era (first few minutes anyway). Astrophysicists now say Space/Time is still clocking somewhat similar but completely undefined expansion speeds as we have no reference nor means of measuring it because we will never see the edges of it -- as that train is moving a lot faster than the boy on the bicycle who is trying to report where the head of the speeding train was a few minutes ago. And the silly train is growing longer faster than the boy can petal, too, just to complicate it all a bit more. Face it, science doesn't really know anything as they have to keep rewriting it all every decade or so ...... We learn so much more about the big stuff and more about the small stuff and more about the organic stuff at such a rate that in essence we have to start saying "we just now barely got out of kindergarten, it is all so complex and wonderful it is sorta hard to take it all in." Microcellular biology is another brain expander. Inside a simple one cell organism is a whole lot of stuff that just couldn't just happen in a pool of slime that happened to get struck by lightning. Enough structure and functions and stuff to make your head swim. And life doesn't get any simpler than a primitive one cell organism. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THE QUESTIONS YET, MUCH LESS THE ANSWERS. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/26/18 at 23:41:22 3B28302D283E2E490 wrote:
Well, I do like sport, and I don't mind a pub-crawl, but as for fishing, I'll leave that to others ;) I agree with you about time. However I equate time with death ... the Grim Reaper (Father Time). The fear is not of dying, but to have not lived before dying. That, to me, involves not overcoming time but, more like, recognising it, accepting it, and appreciating it. Shakespeare put it well ... what is life? a tale told by an idiot, a fool strutting on the stage, full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing ... the brief candle flame blows out. Nietzsche put it another way "One day the last human on Earth will die, and nothing will have happened". What does that leave us with as we stumble around this tiny speck of a globe in a seemingly infinite emptiness? To me, it is the quest for dignity within an impossible situation, that and to nurture the friendship and love of friends and family, because all we have is each other. I tried for many years to grapple with the question "What is the meaning of life?" Then, one day I asked myself, is that even a sensible question? What if life is its own meaning? What if what I feel, and think, and experience are enough? Funnily enough, as a result, I find myself constructing my own sense of destiny, based on what is important to me. And I am happy for each of my fellow humans to do the same. Through the negotiation that ensues, and the surprises along the way, I find that life is indeed worth living for its own sake. To put it another way ... I wouldn't be dead for quids ;) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/27/18 at 06:31:13 5A7971737079797067150 wrote:
That is for sure. Barely out of kindergarten ? I suggest we are still in the very early infant stage and just barely beginning to be aware of our surroundings. No real understanding, just starting to look around. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/27/18 at 06:45:53 Quote:
I think that there is a meaning for our life here. Have you wondered where your soul/spirit come from ? Why do "I" exist ? My self awareness ? Why am I not like a weed, just being there for a moment; or a worm, just going about eating dirt and leaving a trail of fertilize ? Why do I know I exist and am cable of asking questions about things unknown ? That absolutely unique quality was placed within us. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by badwolf on 02/27/18 at 07:36:09 "What is the meaning of life?" 41 |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/18 at 09:48:00 This is a school and a testing ground. No pain ,no gain, isn't just true in the gym. If you believe , ALL things work for the benefit of the believer Then even the hard moments in life are meant to give us something. Some understanding, and open our eyes and those painful times Are the refining fires. He disciplines those he loves. What does that discipline look like? Is that where we see what is called Karma? Does everyone get that visited on them? Shouldn't Soros have simply burst into flames years ago if karma was equally applied? Trying to get that Grand Unified Theory figured out is hard. Maybe that's why nobody has. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/27/18 at 10:46:00 4341524C525048414952200 wrote:
or ...42! ;) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/27/18 at 11:06:42 202D222F293E7E7B4C0 wrote:
Yes Lancer, I have thought a lot about all of those things. Where did my soul or spirit come from? That question depends on the assumption that there is such a thing as a soul (I assume you mean in the Christian sense - a spirit created by God which inhabits the body). I am certainly aware of a sense of self awareness that seems to transcend the limits of my physicality. That seems enough to me. I don't see a need to complicate it more than that by adding the layer of another type of existence beyond the one I know I am experiencing. Why do "I" exist? That seems to me to be a superfluous question. I prefer "What should I do with my time?" My self awareness? That, I think, is a really interesting question, if you mean "what is the nature of my self awareness?". I don't claim to have an answer for that. That used to bother me - not so much anymore. Why am I not like a weed, just being there for a moment; or a worm, just going about eating dirt and leaving a trail of fertilize? Well, we ARE here for just a moment, by any cosmological scale. We don't eat dirt, but we are still part of the food chain, by which we destroy other living things to survive (and avoid being eaten by other living things) - ultimately we become food for the worms. And, I personally don't leave a "trail of fertilizer", but I certainly make my contribution to the fertilization of the planet! Why do I know I exist and am cable of asking questions about things unknown ? I'm not really concerned with the 'why' of my existence - as in 'where did I come from?', or my ability to ask questions about it. That question just creates an infinite regress, because no matter where you end up, you can always ask, "well, why does THAT exist?". That absolutely unique quality was placed within us. That is an interesting claim. I'm interested in why you think that :) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by badwolf on 02/27/18 at 11:52:10 "What is the meaning of life?" You're right, it is ''42'' not 41, I checked. Yea, 6 x 7, thats right! I thought Versy would catch that. ''Don't Panic'' and don't lose your towel. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/18 at 11:59:35 I was just giggling to myself... 41 ;D |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/27/18 at 12:18:59 7270637D636179707863110 wrote:
;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/27/18 at 15:51:43 063C232E212B1D202E2B4F0 wrote:
That absolutely unique quality was placed within us. That is an interesting claim. I'm interested in why you think that :)[/quote] The human race is the only form of life, of the millions on this planet, who have self awareness; that ability to consider ones own existence and ask questions about why we are here, if there is a purpose beyond just going about daily life until we die, and is there existence or life after this one ends ? That ability is the unique quality I spoke of. It was placed in us by God when we were created. Our soul is made up of the mind (intellect), will and emotions. The spirit is a part that is added by God alone, when a person acknowledges the existence of God, admits being a sinful being (sin is the breaking of any of Gods laws as laid down in the 10 Commandments, and every person on this planet has done so, except for one), asking forgiveness and inviting Jesus to come into your heart to save you. When that decision is made from your heart, not just lip service, Jesus will come in to your heart and make alive your spirit. You are at that moment adopted into Gods family as a child of His for eternity. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 02/27/18 at 16:47:15 Thanks for the thoughtful reply Lancer. On your explanation of the soul, I'm going to have to leave that part of our disussion where it is. I can se that we have such differing perspectives at an ontological level, such that there would be no common ground to form the foundations of a discussion. We are starting from such different places. :) |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by LANCER on 02/28/18 at 08:50:35 0B312E232C26102D2326420 wrote:
I understand, and thank you for your thoughtfulness. Perhaps one day we will be closer on that level. Have a good day and ride safe. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by eau de sauvage on 03/03/18 at 21:28:52 @OF They now know that the expansion coefficient is variable and suspect that the speed of light may actually change slightly due to matter density and that the rate of expansion of space time can take place at rates of millions of times the speed of light. The speed of light is only at its maximum in a vacuum, it already slows down when going through stuff, for example the speed of light in glass is a lot slower, in fact high energy sub atomic particle do travel at faster than the speed of light in glass and emit shockwaves like a supersonic plane except they are light, called chernenkov radiation. Also the speed of light was only ever related to objects within spacetime, there was never a constraint on the expansion of spacetime itself. In fact the postulated initial inflation of the universe was that it expanded maybe 40 orders of magnitude at least, in close to the planck time. So that's an expansion of a trillion trillion trillion times in a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second. Which is definitely faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by eau de sauvage on 03/03/18 at 21:41:05 @LANCER, you ask... Where did YOU come from ? But you miss the obvious question which exactly is this 'I' of which you refer. Here's a thought, the world is divided into two things, that is 'I' and 'not I', there is no third thing. But you say 'what about god' (leaving out the fact that 'god' has not been defined with regards to this conversation). OK if god is 'I' (or you) then that the first thing, and if god is 'not I' then that is the second thing. There is no third thing. You ask about 'stuff' which is a good question, the inquiry really is 'what is I' , what is 'not I' and what is god and what's the relationship of the three. We have just taken care of 'god' above. So what is 'I'. Let's look at 'not I' first. This is stuff. What is stuff. Well this is what particle physicists wish to know. What is the fundamental nature of matter. They have come to the conclusion that matter is not real, 'fields' are real. However if you look at what is 'not I' you will see that whatever you objectify is not you and further whatever you objectify is merely a form of something else. A shirt is real, but it's only 'relatively real' is has not fundamental intrinsic existence, a shirt is just a form of cloth, which is a form of fibres which are a form of molecules, atoms, sub atomic particles, quarks, fields, concepts, which exist in the mind which is you. In other words there is no 'not I', it's all you. All this is is existence, which is outside of time and space. Formless. |
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Title: Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff Post by IslandRoad on 03/04/18 at 00:03:44 392B3F3C2B2D2F4A0 wrote:
Well that was easy! :o |
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