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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Livewire ? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1517693936 Message started by oldNslow on 02/03/18 at 13:38:56 |
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Title: Livewire ? Post by oldNslow on 02/03/18 at 13:38:56 Harley Davidson has had a few bad quarters of late in terms of new motorcycle sales. They are even closing the Kansas City Manufacturing facility sometime in 2019 and moving the production from that plant to the plant in York Pa. I'm not too sure that this thing is what's going to turn things around though. http://www.cyclenews.com/2018/02/article/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-coming-18-months/ |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by zipidachimp on 02/03/18 at 15:45:22 target: generation hipster/snowflake ! ;D |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Armen on 02/04/18 at 07:50:44 Hey, they are in trouble. Their traditional buyers are dying off. I give them credit for exploring new avenues. If their street bikes were a LOT lighter, I might look at them. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Dave on 02/04/18 at 08:25:10 Put the V-Rod engine into a sport touring bike instead of a cruiser, revive the sport or adventure bikes that Buell was building (including a bike like the Blast), make a naked street bike that can corner and has some decent performance....and maybe you could get new customers. After 50 or 6o years of building and upgrading the same old bikes....most folks who want a Sportster or big V-Twin have already bought one (or are getting great deals on lightly used ones). |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by batman on 02/04/18 at 08:49:04 What will limit the sales of these bikes ,will not be performance in terms of speed ,but rather mileage ,and access to charging stations. They may be less practical than a 2 gal gas tank on a sportster. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by oldNslow on 02/04/18 at 09:13:08 Quote:
Exactly. I think that that's a big part of their problem right now. New HD's are too expensive compared to the really attractive prices of low mileage, excellent condition, used ones right now. HD is competing with itself in it's market niche. My Sportster is 13 years old, looks good, runs fine and hasn't given me a bit of trouble since I've owned it. I paid 3500 dollars for it a few years ago. Probably more than I should have, but it was a trade in that I bought from a dealer. Craigslist it full of bikes just like mine in the same price range or less. Compare that to the 10 thousand or so OTD price of a brand new version of essentially the exact same motorcycle and I think the problem is obvious. I know quite a few guys that own Harleys. I don't know anyone who owns a NEW Harley. I also think HD blew it badly when they introduced the Street models hoping to attract entry level riders to the brand. During the first couple of model years, those bikes got panned in the motorcycle press for some pretty significant issues, most notably really lousy brakes, and some fit and finish deficiencies. The Streets also had a fuel system recall that didn't help its reputation any. Those things have been rectified now, and the Street Rod version is a pretty nice bike IMO, but I think the damage is done. The 2018 Softails with the new frame and the M8 engine are a step in the right direction, but again, they cost too much, and they aren't likely to attract many new riders into the fold. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by ArkansasBrian on 02/04/18 at 09:29:22 I think electric bikes, much like electric cars, need to be targeted at the commuter market. They can get 90-100 miles in range (at least, other companies have), which is plenty for most people for a daily rider, but not so much for recreational cruising. HD hasn't built for (until recently with the Street line) or marketed effectively to that market. The eco-minded, Harley-devoted motorcycle commuter doesn't seem like a big market share. I'm also curious as to how they'll compare to what's already in that market. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/04/18 at 12:50:02 Harley's problem is that all their bikes look like Harleys!! And . . . they handle like Harleys!! |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/04/18 at 19:01:43 Yea , its that " Idea " that "Real Men Ride 800# Bikes " that I think will be their downfall . I don't know anybody that can man-handle 800#'s like its 400#'s . If their 750 bike was sized for men instead of 5'3" women then they might have sold me one instead of me getting a Guzzi V-7. But , the Harley would have had to be as light or lighter than the Guzzi too ! |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by batman on 02/05/18 at 08:32:48 Harley's A hundred years behind the times and that's the way they like it. They could have offset the cylinders for better cooling(Yamaha Virago)and used two connecting rods in the same plane to preserve the "Harley sound", they could have gotten rid of the cast iron motor much earlier, they could have done a lot but sat on the hands . Now everyone else builds a better bike and sells it for half as much, who's to blame. If I didn't want a jap bike I 'd be looking at a Triumph ,has anyone checked out their new bobber? |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Serowbot on 02/05/18 at 08:48:17 They're gonna' stick a really yuge playing card in the spokes... 8-) |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/05/18 at 09:51:30 I'm hoping that HD can design and develop a product that will see them through for the next 100 years. Then reality hits me and I realize that HD has the engineering know-how, but lacks the marketing wherewithal. The buyer of this product has never owned a HD and would never own one. The brand has tarnished itself for motorcyclists not in the pirate/outlaw dress-up club. It will take two things for HD to succeed with the Livewire: 1. An outstanding product. One that isn't aspirational, but obtainable, and 2. An outreach to the community at large without pretense that "we are HD". Number 2 is going to be their problem. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Dave on 02/05/18 at 11:38:52 I am soooooo out of touch with some of the lifestyles that folks in the US have - some of it might be because I live in an area where the cost of living and wages are pretty low. I cannot imagine spending $60,000 - $80,000 for a fancy SUV or pickup truck. I can't imagine spending $25,000 for a fancy touring bike. I can't imagine spending $10,000 - $16,000 for an electric motorcycle with a very short cord (range of travel). There may be places in the world where the cost of living/parking/fuel can warrant an electric car or motorcycle - but that is not where and how I live. I drive 12 miles to work with very light traffic and a tank of fuel in the Ninja will cost me $10.60 and get me to work and back 20 times (2 weeks). If I make the same trip in the car a $31.80 tank of fuel will get me there 30 times (3 weeks), and I have free parking and my car is about 20 feet from my desk. If fuel prices get really high, free charging stations become prevalent and I can plug in conveniently, the cost of insurance and licensing is really low for an electric bike.....and I can buy one for $2000 - I might consider it. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by IslandRoad on 02/05/18 at 12:50:26 7E7D68717D7228241C0 wrote:
I was looking online at the Triumph bobber the other day. Great looking bike! The faux hardtail was cool. However the big radiator on the front puts me off! |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by IslandRoad on 02/05/18 at 12:51:53 HD are also closing a plant here in Australia that makes wheels for them. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by IslandRoad on 02/05/18 at 12:52:58 I still have a chuckle every time my mate asks me "When are you gonna upgrade to a Harley?" ;D |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/06/18 at 08:23:57 "When are you gonna upgrade to a Harley? So , What ability does a "HARLEY" have that other bikes don't have ? |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/06/18 at 08:27:04 The ability to turn their owners into BLIND OBENDANT DRUELLING SERVANTS Of course some say the Savages have the same ability ! ;D |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by HAPPYDAN on 02/06/18 at 11:18:32 "We have always done it that way" has been the downfall of many successful businesses. HD is no exception, apparently. They have recognized their target market is saturated, and have chosen to remove the "Black Leather" blinders. Congratulations. Now give us some good looking bikes with good performance at good prices, and offer them in some other color besides wrinkle wall black. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/06/18 at 20:57:30 The dilemma I'm in is part of Harleys problem. I'm getting Older and need a lighter bike. so I've got a Sportster , a LS-650 , and a Guzzi V-7II . Well The Guzzi is 412 # The LS-650 is 360 # The Sportster is 560 or more One of them needs a new Home ! which one should go ??? They all three will run 70-75 on the super slab just fine , tank full after tank full ... I see some folks getting a third wheel as they get older and know one guy that has a GoldWing with training wheels even. Thing is them extra wheels take all the fun out of ridding ! That guy with the TRAINNING WHEELS sure is comical to watch doing turns ... if you can stand to be behind him !!! :( |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by batman on 02/06/18 at 21:26:17 MM strikes a point ,HD sold bikes to the baby boomers ,the largest market the country has ever seen , but we are all to old to be riding a bike that heavy. Where most companies are missing the boat is that the bikes that may be have the motor size and weight to appeal to us are styled like "ninjas" rather than something with all day comfort. I don't know if I'd buy a Triumph , but they are closer to the style of bike I would consider, there are others. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/06/18 at 22:02:32 Batman wrote: . Where most companies are missing the boat is that the bikes that may be have the motor size and weight to appeal to us are styled like "ninjas" rather than something with all day comfort. The Guzzi V-7III has 53Hp and weights 412# , with standard seating and a 5.5 gal. fuel tank ... Its not a ninja by no means ! ;) Reminds me of a 1970's , light weight CB450 Honda two cylinder and w/shaft drive and a few more Horses ! :) .... That don't vibrate !!! ;D. Italian Harley --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harley started making a 750/500 , good idea but ... they made it sized for a 5'3" female . They just couldn't turn loose of the idea that "Real Men Ride 800# bikes " I can just about hear the Harley CEO hollering " WELL !!!! DERN IT !!!! REAL MEN DO RIDE 800# BIKES !!!!! " |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by JLC on 02/06/18 at 22:07:40 I never understood the "Harleys are the only real bikes" syndrome, and I still don't. I have no idea what the market for Guzzi motorcycles is. At least here in Colorado, the used Harley market is iffy to say the least. When I bought my S40 back in October 2016, I was also looking at 2007 or newer Harley Sportsters. Asking prices were $4000 and up, many well above Blue Book values. Some of those bikes are still for sale now. I was very interested in a 2015 Sportster 48 with low mileage, the owner wanted $11,500 for it. That bike is still on the market, now for $9000. The 2007 Sportster I bought in August 2017 was exactly what I wanted ("Low" model, pearl white color, FI and rubber mounts, very low mileage). The asking price was $4250, but I bought it well under $4000. I now see similar bikes for $3500 or even lower. The prices will go up this Spring, I assume, but I feel it will be a buyers market. There does not seem to be much of a market for S40 bikes either. I see them on Craigslist, usually from $2500 to $3500, and they seem to sit there for a long time. I read on this forum about people getting newer S40s for $1000 or less, but the only ones I have seen locally for that kind of money were wrecks. PS: I am a lot closer to my 70th birthday than my 69th, and I am only 5' 3" tall, but I am not ready for lighter bikes or a three wheeler yet! |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Dave on 02/07/18 at 04:39:17 Not sure if this is off topic (it is).....but if the Harley factory folks were building cars with the same design philosophy as their bikes.......what would it be? Engine and body design from the 50's updated a bit? Would it be the Checker.....the car that was used for so many cabs? |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by oldNslow on 02/07/18 at 06:51:24 JLC wrote: "PS: I am a lot closer to my 70th birthday than my 69th, and I am only 5' 3" tall, but I am not ready for lighter bikes or a three wheeler yet! " Yup. I agree, I'm taller than you, but not by a lot (5' 6") and I just turned 70. My Sportster is an '04, one of the first of the rubbermounts, so it's pretty porky. Honestly though the only time the weight is a problem is when I'm shoving it around inside the garage. The S40 feels like a little dirt bike doing that. When riding, I'm perfectly happy on either one. I've never had a lot of interest in the bigger HDs but I've always been fond of Sportsters. However last fall I went to an open house at one of the local Harley dealers when they rolled out the new 2018 softail line. I have to hand it to HD. Those are some very nice bikes, and beneath the surface - they still look like traditional HD cruisers mostly, they are actually quite different from the previous models. They weren't doing demo rides that day so I didn't get to ride one. I especially liked the 2018 Street Bob. Sitting on it and tipping it from side to side it felt lighter and less top heavy than my Sportster, even though it actually weighs a good bit more. The ergos were great for someone my size. Even the stock bars. which HD calls mini-apes, felt good. I's probably a good thing that I didn't get a test ride. Might have turned into an expensive day :) https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-harley-davidson-softail-street-bob#page-2 I get that HDs aren't for everyone. They are what they are. I am somewhat amused by some of the knee-jerk hatred, and, some of the uninformed, criticism of the brand though.. The newer Harley's are very much modern motorcycles, with a lot of modern technology hidden underneath the styling. In fact, because the new Harleys are modern motorcycles, not antiquated, neanderthal POS relics of ans earlier age is, ironically, the reason I'll probably hang on to my carbureted, air cooled, Sporty, with a cable operated throttle and clutch, and practically no electronics, except for the self cancelling turn signals, which I would be happy to do without. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by MMRanch on 02/07/18 at 10:22:41 OldNslow wrote : I'll probably hang on to my carbureted, air cooled, Sporty, I had an 04 Roadster , and liked it till the crank splines going to the drive sprocket/alt. disappeared. It was a 1200cc and while fixing it I found the crank was made out of Case-Hardened Mild steel , and there was no taper between the Crank/Alt. to tighten-up against. I build a taper to tighten up on while I was welding and Dremal Tooling new splined onto it , both matting parts to match. I drove it around for a year after that and never had anymore trouble out of it. Now I've got a 2007 883 (injected) that is perfect except the 2004 got better mpg and was more user friendly. I've come to the conclusion that Harley built the 883 and got it perfect ! Then , SOMEBODY had the screwball idea to stick some bigger pistons in it and threw it a little out of balance and over powered the crank shaft. I'll admit I was running my 1200 like it was a sports bike , up and down the RPM range and pulling the power out of it then engine-braking into the turns only to pull it open again to "Peel" out of the corners." I've done my 883 the same way with no ill effects. I hope to sell the 2007 this year , and buy a 2004-2006 883 sometime. Only trouble I've ever had from the 2007 was with the relay that runs the fuel pump. The injector is not as SMOOTH as the Carb was either , while idleing in first gear . |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/07/18 at 10:46:52 Harley built the bikes that their customers demanded. And in the 1990's & 2000's they couldn't build enough of them. They were so in touch with the core customer that they forgot about the rest of the market (actually, they had an opportunity with other micro-segments of the markets but never developed the Buell brand to its potential). Now they are scrambling (almost a pun) to find a new niche market where they can find future-proof growth. A smart move...just a decade too late. I think Harley will survive this change in demographic, but they will be a fraction of its former self for a long time. At least with electric bikes the nick-name "The Motor Company" will be technically correct. |
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Title: Re: Livewire ? Post by oldNslow on 02/07/18 at 11:15:02 Quote:
I've never ridden a 1200 sportster, but I've been told, and read, that the 1200 typically shakes more than the 883 does. What Harley really needs to do I think is figure out a way to get a counterbalancer in there without drastically changing anything else about the engine. Then go back to the rigid mount frame, or a modern variant (a mono shock even, like the new softails). That way they could loose 50 or 60 pounds and they'd still have a sportster that still looked like a sportster is supposed to look to old geezers like me, but one that didn't shake too much, and performed a little better. If I could take 50 pounds off my '04 the stock suspension, which right now is barely adequate, would be upgraded without actually doing anything to it. It would make it easier to pick the bike up too, if I ever knock it over screwing around trying to get the snowblower or the mower out of the garage. |
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