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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Compression /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1516923988 Message started by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/25/18 at 15:46:27 |
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Title: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/25/18 at 15:46:27 What is the highest compression any of you have gone ? With stock bore to 97 mm. Just wondering what some of the compression ratio is you all have tried. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Armen on 01/25/18 at 18:08:54 One of the more telling comments was when Lance said he shaved the cylinder and the head. A lot. By doing that, he not only raised the compression, but tightened the squish band a lot. He did this after installing a high compression piston. This tells me the squish band is huge. I think the first thing to do would be to cc the combustion chamber. Then measure the squish band. For this size motor, I'm guessing .040" (1 mm) would be a good, safe number. Do whatever you need to do to get to that number, then remeasure the combustion chamber and figure out what compression you have. My 2 cents. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/18 at 22:34:51 Some cam timing is possible by fiddling with the spline choices. Ask Armen. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 00:43:53 I know how to do it just wanted to know the highest people have gone |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Armen on 01/26/18 at 07:47:31 The point was, the answer is more complicated than the question. Simply asking what CR was used without taking into account other mods is not going to yield a good answer. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 10:55:35 1B28373F345A0 wrote:
You're over-analyzing it I just want to know what the highest compression ratio some of you have ran that's it I know you got to take all the other stuff into consideration. Just wondering what some people have ran |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Armen on 01/26/18 at 14:00:38 Overanalyzing? Hmm, combustion chamber mods don't count? Then I guess you wouldn't want to ask cam people are using After all, a long duration cam would give lower compression at lower revs. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by batman on 01/26/18 at 14:08:35 zz-11, If you know how to do it ,then proceed, It 's very possible that others haven't bothered to cc their heads so an answer is not forthcoming . |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by batman on 01/26/18 at 14:19:27 zx-11 , and a stock cam would increase torque, if advanced, at lower rpm due to early opening of the intake valve ,and earlier closing of the exhaust valve ,which causes less revision .( but you knew that!) |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 14:30:42 The general answer to your general question is 10.5:1 up from 8-8.5:1. It (In my opinion as a machinist who knows quite a bit about threads, sheer weight, thermodynamics, and tensile yields..) would be ill advised to take cr much higher on the stock studs, head gasket... Especially if you plan on boosting it. One might blow that limit out of the water by engineering a new higher flow head to eliminate(or provide better evacuation of) some of the extra heat. No matter how much compression is added to the current configuration... it is still extremely limited by air in and air out. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 14:43:25 6E455F445E59424B1C1E792D0 wrote:
OK so no 13.5.1 out there lol |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 14:44:01 With all the machinist on this board why has nobody built a Billet head yet or designed one? |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/18 at 16:21:41 Be the first. We would all be happy with a kick starter, too. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by batman on 01/26/18 at 16:27:31 Being older I'm waiting on someone to come up with a trike kit. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 19:12:30 624E5D4478684E5A5B47464A5D2F0 wrote:
Because as many of us have already tried to get through to you... The cost and aggravation will NEVER yield the results to justify it. It is a single cylinder, air cooled, mass produced for the best affordability/reliability platform. Not in any way, shape, or fashion an adrenalin junky's fix. It was never intended to be a horsepower maker. Come on man... These things put out under 30 horses stock. What you are proposing is basically pouring thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in design into a platform that can be picked up for a few hundred bucks. That's like spending 20k$ on a 1k$ honda civic, building up so you can keep up with stock muckstains... It's clown shoes. for most of us... money actually means something. Keeping the bills paid... Things like eating once in a while are nice... I just went through the motions to swap mine over to the 95mm high compression setup... My bike had just under 4k miles on it when I brought it home... It is a 2006. I gave literally 450$ worth of labor for it. I was able to justify the 650-700$ or so that my build totaled. But it was only because the oem configuration failed on me and parts replacement was necessary. For what the bike cost me, and the parts... It was worth it for me to salvage the bike. It would never make sense to me to go any farther with performance modifications. Seriously man... If you have been on one of these above 80mph... You would not want to go much faster. The front end gets kinda squirrely. Like others have said... It's your bike... Your build... Your dollar. But to be honest... The questions you are asking lead me to believe less of your technical capabilities. Someone ready to stroke out one of these motors, and hit it with laughing gas... Should not be asking about compression ratios, bobber kits, or any other remedial mechanical discipline. You are entering big boy territory. I'm not making an attempt to talk down from a pedestal man... Just trying to reel you back in closer to reality. These bikes have been around and pretty much unchanged since 1986. If it could have been reasonably done... It would have been by now - 32 years later. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 19:14:33 2427322B2728727E460 wrote:
Guess what I'm thinking for the `96... I've always wanted my very own Monster Cycle... (anybody even get that reference?) |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 19:35:52 7F544E554F48535A0D0F683C0 wrote:
Because as many of us have already tried to get through to you... The cost and aggravation will NEVER yield the results to justify it. It is a single cylinder, air cooled, mass produced for the best affordability/reliability platform. Not in any way, shape, or fashion an adrenalin junky's fix. It was never intended to be a horsepower maker. Come on man... These things put out under 30 horses stock. What you are proposing is basically pouring thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in design into a platform that can be picked up for a few hundred bucks. That's like spending 20k$ on a 1k$ honda civic, building up so you can keep up with stock muckstains... It's clown shoes. for most of us... money actually means something. Keeping the bills paid... Things like eating once in a while are nice... I just went through the motions to swap mine over to the 95mm high compression setup... My bike had just under 4k miles on it when I brought it home... It is a 2006. I gave literally 450$ worth of labor for it. I was able to justify the 650-700$ or so that my build totaled. But it was only because the oem configuration failed on me and parts replacement was necessary. For what the bike cost me, and the parts... It was worth it for me to salvage the bike. It would never make sense to me to go any farther with performance modifications. Seriously man... If you have been on one of these above 80mph... You would not want to go much faster. The front end gets kinda squirrely. Like others have said... It's your bike... Your build... Your dollar. But to be honest... The questions you are asking lead me to believe less of your technical capabilities. Someone ready to stroke out one of these motors, and hit it with laughing gas... Should not be asking about compression ratios, bobber kits, or any other remedial mechanical discipline. You are entering big boy territory. I'm not making an attempt to talk down from a pedestal man... Just trying to reel you back in closer to reality. These bikes have been around and pretty much unchanged since 1986. If it could have been reasonably done... It would have been by now - 32 years later. [/quote] No you just lack the ability and the resources to do it next time keep your two cents to yourself. I'm just trying to see what people have done to the scene to Max it out so far so I don't have to do as much research but obviously I'll put down in my notes you don't know what you're doing so I'll start from scratch have a nice day :P |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by IslandRoad on 01/26/18 at 22:14:08 Well ... that escalated quickly! For heaven's sake, the guy just asked 'What compression ratio have you achieved' ... not how did you do it? or, what else do I have to think about? Sheesh! Calm you're farm people. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 22:35:41 4B716E636C66506D6366020 wrote:
And I'm telling you I've never seen a forum with such a rude people who think they know it all it sounds like they're all f****** Machinist every machinist I know thinks he's an arrogant engine builder and can't build his way out of a paper bag they're good at Machining and that's it I tell you I've been to some forms before but all of this is bad these people do not know how to communicate and be a community I tell you that the only person I like on here so far a lot is Lancer. I like Dave because he keeps his word when he says he build something to sell he'll sell it but so far a lot of the other people on here are very rude and inconsiderate and think everybody that comes on here is stupid. Yeah I know I don't spell good and I got a learning disability. In English. But I do the best I can but I don't freaking shoot people down when they want to build something and try and help other people better a product maybe that's the difference between the engine builder forms I'm used to and the people on this form they're all self-centered on here to wear engine builder forums we all work together and see if we can help each other out building the motor and improving the motor for everybody in the community. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by IslandRoad on 01/26/18 at 23:08:27 Hang in there mate. This is actually a really good forum. Some people on here have been really good to me. Every now and then a thread goes haywire (mob mentality?) ... but overall its one of the better ones. I thought your questing was really simple, and didn't deserve the kind of flack you received. Sometimes people just get a bit of sand in their shorts. ... I can forgive that. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by verslagen1 on 01/26/18 at 23:49:10 look guys, time to lighten up. whether or not he has the talent to get it there is up to him. he's never going to take anything from you, so lighten up and enjoy. This really isn't worth the aggravation and only detracts from the community that we enjoy here. If you have advice, give it. if it falls on deaf ears... so what. Grab a bowl of popcorn and watch the fireworks. We are a community that gives and encourages and I mean to keep it that way. So... behave. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/27/18 at 00:27:41 I just love to make motors better it's my drug of choice. That's all. If I hade listen to everybody that talk bad about me building Motors over my lifetime I would not have the knowledge experience the records I have today by sitting around insane all this is too hard you can't fix this I remember when people told me it was impossible to get over 700 horse out of a 70 cubic inch motorcycle people thought I was nuts no way it'll ever hold that no way it'll be able to make that kind of power I prove them wrong now they come to me for making big Power and I used to be the one that everybody thought was nuts if you seen the modifications I have had to do to my Motors to make them hold horsepower you would think I'm nuts for that spending that kind of money on them. He'll my dad gives me crap all the time lol. I just want to make the motor like a Lil hot rod that's street able for people that want to have a little hot rod but can't afford the big bikes like the ZX-14 XI cuz everybody loves to Tinker and everybody loves to hop their stuff up even though they say they don't they like to put knickknacks on their bike or bobber kits or whatever I just want to try and make the motor the best it can be for people that can't afford to do it and just want to know can maybe afford a cylinder head a piston from Lance and them cams and maybe is a few other things because I know there's a lot of people that can afford to Super point of these but can't afford to soup up a big bike cuz you can sometimes get these bikes for pretty cheap. And I can tell there's a lot of things I can learn from you people on this board about this thing so I don't have to worry about finding everything out by myself but with you guys and the people that I know in my ability I think we can work and get this thing to work really good because what it really does need you guys are right is a cylinder head and that's the main thing I'm going to work on once my buddy gets back from Australia cuz he can use CAD program I don't know how to operate that really that well. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Christof13T on 01/27/18 at 07:51:06 And once again... Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done... Do it if your gonna do it... The resounding response is that the effort will outweigh the gains. That's all. It doesn't matter how many threads you start... Your intent is already pretty clear... So sh*t or get off the pot man. Heck... An affordable stroker package coupled with a high flow head, and hard parts that could handle a naked 13.5:1 cr would be sick, and I would likely be in line for a set.. I'm secretly rooting for you man. I want you to succeed. Fortune favors the bold. I'm not that bold lol. If I still had access to all my machining toys I might have given something like that a go. But I know what it will take to pull it off... and there is no way I can do it in house out of my shop. I'm sorry if I come across as rude. It is not my intention. I don't have much of a filter when matters of fact, and cost are involved. I just see a very difficult road you seek to set out on. I will make one more suggestion on the matter and then I'm gonna leave it alone. Get to know this engine. Intimately. Focus on beefing up the weak links. Figure out how to up the pressure and volume of the lubrication system. Waay more air in and out. Look at replacement studs and head fasteners. Fire ring head gasket. Definitely look into an upgraded timing chain tensioner. Versy's is fabulous... Or if you want to get crazy with it, there is another style developed by some fellow in Sweden, or Norway... or one of those Viking region countries that is entirely over engineered and constructed to withstand a nuke going off inside your motor... Remember that any development will only be as efficient/strong as its weakest link. Don't get in a hurry and let the weakest link be the engineer.... ;) |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/18 at 08:32:25 If you're interested in a way out there design, look up "Rotary Valve Engines" by Marcus C Inman Hunter and then we can talk some conspiracy. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/27/18 at 08:46:03 0F23302915052337362A2B2730420 wrote:
So I’d like to respond to this without escalation. It’s not meant to insult you. First off, I do have a lot of experience building things. Not just motorcycles. I’ve built a few hi performance aerobatic airplanes from scratch and have restored a few cars along the way. I’ve also hand built a few houses and have restored a building from the 1860’s. I know what it takes from a time, effort and money stand point to get things done. Now with that said... The type of engine that I think you want to build would cost more then a new sport bike. From what you’ve posted I believe you would have to invest somewhere around $10-15,000 on the engine alone. Do keep in mind that once you have a 75-100 hp monster in an LS650, you will no longer have a rideable bike. At a minimum you will need an entire new front end (such as GSXR-600 forks, wheels, brakes, T-clamps), a custom made swing arm and significant frame reinforcement. Regarding the swing arm...a Savage only has about 2 inches of wheel travel. The amount of squat created by the torque your engine will produce will overwhelm the stock configuration. You’re gonna have to go hard tail or fabricate a proper swing arm. Even if you go the easy route and go hard tail, you’re gonna need a very wide tire to put the available power to the ground. That will require a wider rim. Once the rim gets wide the rear sprocket (forget about retaining the belt drive) will be out of alignment with the front. Now your engine will have to be moved to an offset location to compensate. And this is just the beginning of the complications. This will certainly be a $20-$25,000 bike. Which is great if that’s what you’re planning. Then I think about other recent builds we’ve seen on the Forum; beer budget board tracker, the guy from Italy that grafted a single sided swing arm and USD forks onto his bike and some others, and I’m blown away by the vision and craftsmanship. I hope your project brings the same joy to you and to everyone you share it with. But to think that this is going to be a budget build for the masses... no way. This project will be the most expensive Savage build in history. If that’s the record you want to hold, you’re well on your way. That’s just my opinion. Why don’t you start a dedicated build thread to chronicle your effort. Within that thread you can tell us how and why things are being done and then we might be able to understand your process. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by batman on 01/28/18 at 11:13:27 IslandRoad, I think your confusing "mob mentality " with general conscience .I think if you believe that ZX-14 is a talented builder, then perhaps you should pull and send your motor to him as he asked ,and let him work his magic .The answers given about the compression ratio ,were both truthful and complete, as no hard number could be given.( and cc-ing the head , may help others reading the post to learn how CR is determined). If the reality of truth is to harsh ,Man -up! It shouldn't allow your opinion of us to be a "mob" ,nor does it allow you the right to whine about not doing ZX-14's research for him ,or its total injustice. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by IslandRoad on 01/28/18 at 12:39:00 6063766F636C363A020 wrote:
'Man-Up"?! ... that's a bit harsh mate. Anyway, I'm going back to my reading. |
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Title: Re: Compression Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/28/18 at 14:42:00 2C2F3A232F207A764E0 wrote:
::) |
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