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Message started by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 13:19:28

Title: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 13:19:28

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltzy5vRmN8Q&feature=share[/media]

I'm gonna get me some BK tonight!
Well done King!

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 13:44:34

poor analogy.
why would any company offer their product at various speeds?
Oh, wait... cable and modem speeds.

net neut is more like calling Uber to deliver pizza from either papa johns, dominos, or pizza hut.
You want papa john's but if you order from pizza hut you get it in 10 mins vs 30 mins from the others.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 13:55:35

7C6F7879666B6D6F643B0A0 wrote:

More like, a company that offered several menu items (youtube, netflix, hulu, vimeo, etc.) would offer some at a premium - if they didn't own it, or some at a base cost, if they didn't own it.

Think about it - if your comcast delivery had its way, why wouldn't they throttle sites they weren't making as much profit off of. Like in the video, they can make more off of chicken sandwiches than whoppers.

Perfect analogy.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Serowbot on 01/24/18 at 13:57:38

Perfect... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by raydawg on 01/24/18 at 14:13:49

I’ve had it with, and without, and I see can’t tell you personally, the difference I’ve been able to discern.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/18 at 14:23:42

Think about it - if your comcast delivery had its way, why wouldn't they throttle sites they weren't making as much profit off of..

The service Provider is offering a service to a consumer. The CONSUMER is paying the provider. If I NEED or WANT a package delivered, I PAY a delivery service to Get it Here. They don't decide to drag their feet based on what they get from the manufacturer or shipper.

I know, you got NOTHING.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/24/18 at 14:31:13

57445C41445242250 wrote:

I’ve had it with, and without, and I see can’t tell you personally, the difference I’ve been able to discern.

no, you actually haven't experienced the internet without Net Neutrality,

you've just experienced it with and without it written down as a regulation.

the default of ISPs has been Net Neutrality as that is "in the spirit" of the internet as it was founded

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/18 at 14:33:01

So the law was unnecessary and eliminating it is meaningless?

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/18 at 14:33:37

36292F2835320333033B29256E5C0 wrote:

Talking points or logic?

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 14:42:22

5E4D55484D5B4B2C0 wrote:

I’ve had it with, and without, and I see can’t tell you personally, the difference I’ve been able to discern.

First off.. what is that, Yoda speak? ;D

Secondly, you haven't really had it without - yet.

Congress is very close to pulling it back and rejecting what pai tried to pull.

That being said, if NN were to be completely revoked, you actually might not see a change - depending on the sites you went to or if you host a site or run a business with a server farm, etc. However, as time goes by, without NN, you will indeed see a difference. A difference in pricing, speed throttling (not just because of what you pay, but the actual content or device), and if applicable, hosting changes.

Like I've said from the start, if the big ISPs are in love with it, chances are it's not good for the consumer.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/24/18 at 14:42:24

3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 wrote:

well they did, then they were sued, which is what started this whole thing with getting it written down as a regulation. they've even denied service to internet services like Bit Torrent.

https://techcrunch.com/2009/12/22/comcast-settles-bandwidth-throttling-lawsuit-for-16-million-thats-4-hours-of-revenue/

https://www.wired.com/2007/11/comcast-sued-ov/

and so has Verizon https://www.extremetech.com/computing/186576-verizon-caught-throttling-netflix-traffic-even-after-its-pays-for-more-bandwidth

"They don't decide to drag their feet based on what they get from the manufacturer or shipper."

and judging from the articles above, they actually have in the past, to put pressure on that "manufacturer or shipper" to pay them to make that "manufacturer or shipper's" customers put pressure on them or drop them completely for their OWN alternative product.

all that lead to the FCC doing that whole title 2 thing.

now in an ideal world, competition would be the answer, and laws and regulations or even deregulations in the right areas maybe, encouraging competition and growth would be the better answer, but our telecomm industry has been based on monopolies since they started with Ma' Bell

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 14:45:16

6D4459464E5947526744585F6A595F42585F2B0 wrote:

[quote author=3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 link=1516828768/0#5 date=1516832622]Think about it - if your comcast delivery had its way, why wouldn't they throttle sites they weren't making as much profit off of..

The service Provider is offering a service to a consumer. The CONSUMER is paying the provider. If I NEED or WANT a package delivered, I PAY a delivery service to Get it Here. They don't decide to drag their feet based on what they get from the manufacturer or shipper.

I know, you got NOTHING.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/24/18 at 14:46:54

27383E3924231222122A38347F4D0 wrote:

So the law was unnecessary and eliminating it is meaningless?

maybe, but having the law ensured at least a basic understanding of expectations for ISP behavior, without it, well, capitalism rules and dog eat dog. There's no fair playing field for competition. and the law was a very very light touch on the ISP industry,

now there are things that the FCC could do that'd be better, instead of burying their collective heads in the sand and letting the invisible hand of the market sort it out, things that'd increase competition and growth. like open up some bandwidths for use by WiFi networks, and finding ways to encourage competition

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/18 at 14:51:34

0A233E21293E203500233F380D3E38253F384C0 wrote:

[quote author=27383E3924231222122A38347F4D0 link=1516828768/0#7 date=1516833181]So the law was unnecessary and eliminating it is meaningless?

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/18 at 15:45:37

Gotta admit appreciation for the perspectives I'm seeing.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/24/18 at 15:54:00

47585E5944437242724A58541F2D0 wrote:

Gotta admit appreciation for the perspectives I'm seeing.

as things are, title 2 wasn't a bad compromise, was it perfect, no, but at least it restrained ISPs from running over their customers a bit.

and although I'd like to see better more free market solutions, that's a much much harder fight

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/18 at 17:05:31

We're truly in a place where all that's left is to wait and see. Hopefully the providers won't screw the consumers.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/25/18 at 08:38:06

7E6167607D7A4B7B4B73616D26140 wrote:

We're truly in a place where all that's left is to wait and see. Hopefully the providers won't screw the consumers.

and what if they do? guess you have to complain to the FTC instead of the FCC, at least that's what Pai says, so maybe all is not lost, only time will tell

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Serowbot on 01/25/18 at 09:08:12

504F494E53546555655D4F43083A0 wrote:

Hopefully the providers won't screw the consumers.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/25/18 at 09:17:08

The link provided earlier does a decent job showing some of the physical infrastructure that is manipulated by ISP's.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/186576-verizon-caught-throttling-netflix-traffic-even-after-its-pays-for-more-bandwidth

It seems a lot of people forget or do not know what is involved. Comcast throttled Netflix among others where I live and we had to start filing to get information. Once the go ahead was approved at a hearing the performance improved.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/18 at 11:51:28

3026312C34212C37430 wrote:

[quote author=504F494E53546555655D4F43083A0 link=1516828768/15#16 date=1516842331]Hopefully the providers won't screw the consumers.

When all you have is hope that a profit driven industry will choose fairness over profit,.. you're in deep trouble.
I'd prefer to have some legal protections... (if they are never needed, fine... no harm, no foul,... I'd still like to have them)...[/quote]

Which law is forcing employers to share with their employees and raise wages?

It's in Service Providers best interests to PROVIDE, WHEN there are competitors waiting to do a better job. In markets where there are no options, then the consumers are less able to punish the provider.
I still think this will create innovation and competition.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 01/26/18 at 11:10:47

A 18 wheel Semi, gets on the tollway.
It is caring, 200,000.00 worth of product.
Another identical truck gets on.
It is caring, 20,000.00 worth of product.
They each pay a 5.00 toll.

A Prius gets on, and goes to the Same Place,
It is carrying nothing.
It pays a 1.00 toll.

The tolls are biased of the Size of the car/truck,
not why, they are driving that road.

Now, once on, the people in the truck/s or car.
can buy a 1.00 or 2.00 or 3.00 burger.
They Choose where to stop.

They can travel, fast or slow.
(And fast/slow, is more or less cost)
It is a choice.

Now in a Toll Road, the toll is collected by the person who builds the road.

If the, ’Toll Road’, was the Internet/WWW, who is collecting the Toll?

Know that getting on that road, is NOT, free.
(Never has been, never will be)

“Oh but I can go the the Coffee Shop or Library, and get on for Free”
(Just what a, ’Snowflake’ would say)
Yep, Library has Wi-Fi, and gives out the password to use it.
And who, pays taxes to the Town/Country/State,
who pays the Library,
to pay the entity that requires a fee to connect.

Same as a coffee shop, Airport, bar, etc.
The amount you pay, for that thing,
HAS, the price, that place pays, built in.

On the, Internet/WWW, who, is collecting the Toll?

Someone has some big bucks.
They buy a building, which has fiber-optic cable to the Phone building.
They buy a bunch of servers. Hire a bunch of computer experts.
And then put up adds, call their new place the, ‘Cloud’.
And offer to anyone who want’s, Storage of Anything they want.
For a price, depending on, how much and for how long.

Who would that company pay?
How much ?
Would it depend on how big it is?
Or the value of the load it carries?

The, ‘Dark Web’. Who pays who, (and how), for that ?

Who actually Owns the WWW - Internet ?
Not the truck, not the maker of the truck, not the company that owns the truck, not the tires on the truck, not the fuel the truck uses, not the product the truck is carrying, not the maker of the product, etc, etc, etc,

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/26/18 at 11:56:55

I don't think anyone "owns" the entire WWW as it is the distribution of owned items electronically.

Nobody owns all toll roads, (or THE Toll Road) many people own specific ones. There is no single ownership on the internet as it is worldwide.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/26/18 at 12:18:52

5D7D7F776A7D180 wrote:

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/18 at 13:13:59

That certainly destroyed a well presented analogy.
Not.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/29/18 at 11:04:06

The analogy was sound, except for the question after it:

"Who actually Owns the WWW - Internet ?
Not the truck, not the maker of the truck, not the company that owns the truck, not the tires on the truck, not the fuel the truck uses, not the product the truck is carrying, not the maker of the product, etc, etc, etc, "

Asking who owns the internet but not all the etc.etc.etc. and I think nobody does. Not when all other components are removed.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/18 at 11:13:40

I was being facetious..

Nobody owns the internet.
Nobody owns radio frequency spectrum.
If you want Access to it, you have to pay someone.
If you want the best access, you will be paying more.
Why aren't the same people who are upset demand that every insurance policy provide the same protection, every cable company provide the complete Platinum Package for the same price as the current cheap package?
Why does steak cost more than a hot dog?
Good Grief,

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/29/18 at 11:32:21

"Why aren't the same people who are upset demand that every insurance policy provide the same protection, every cable company provide the complete Platinum Package for the same price as the current cheap package?"

Its not about cost, its about access/speed. If I want access to any website faster I pay the higher cost. I do not pay a flat fee for the ISP to choose for me what I can access at the flat-rate speed, and slow-down the websites they don't own.

Its not hotdogs and steak, its steak served slower because the restaurant owns a hotdog factory.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/18 at 11:49:16

Which service providers
Own
the websites that I access
Through them?

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/29/18 at 12:05:18

Im not going to go through the list of thousands of websites owned by ISPs, but I can outline Comcast since I looked into it thoroughly when access in my area was throttled by them.

Comcast owns NBC, and NBC owns a number of websites associated with NBC television among other assets. They own the intellectual property contained on all related websites. This includes sports and news sites.

Comcast acquired AT&T and the same thing applies.

They own Universal Studios same as above applies.

Those examples alone equal hundreds of websites worldwide.

Comcast can now legally charge me a fast access premium that allows me full speed to any NBC related content and throttle my Netflix to unusable levels. No matter what I pay for fast speed I can no longer use Netflix or Spotify etc at those paid-for speeds.

That's what people are complaining about, not faster internet but equal access.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/18 at 12:23:27

I don't need a comprehensive list. That's enough to show a conflict of interest. That's kinda like an insurance company owning the hospital.
Now, my question is,
If I'm selling Access to the Internet and I own a news source, will I change the speed of access to news outlets I Don't own?
Yeah, probably.. Since they profit from advertisers On the site they own.
Something about that is screwed up.
I don't know what the answer is yet.
I don't even have the question completely grasped yet.
I don't know if monopoly laws would apply, but if I bought a car and it would only run seventy if I was headed somewhere the finance company owned, I'd be PISSED.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/29/18 at 12:29:59

4A555354494E7F4F7F47555912200 wrote:

insurance companies have bought physicians groups and hospitals, and hospitals have bought and offered insurance

are you maybe starting to understand why a pure for profit driven system doesn't answer everything and can be corrupting?

even though it's still the best system that we've come up with so far, capitalism isn't perfect and that "invisible hand" can be a tricky mo-fo.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/29/18 at 12:34:10

Neutrality hasn't been around long but it never applied to cell phones and customers typically aren't happy with the selective data usage.

For instance Verizon doesn't charge data to use their applications, but they do on non-network sites and they slow them down. Want to use yahoo maps instead of Verizons crappy maps? Pay a data charge and lower speed.

I don't know how NN removal will work out but with the changing data streams on the web (not the 2000's blog websites) the customer has a lot to lose in areas where there's limited or no competitive infrastructure.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/29/18 at 15:15:47

654C514E46514F5A6F4C50576251574A5057230 wrote:

[quote author=4A555354494E7F4F7F47555912200 link=1516828768/30#30 date=1517257407]I don't need a comprehensive list. That's enough to show a conflict of interest. That's kinda like an insurance company owning the hospital.
Now, my question is,
If I'm selling Access to the Internet and I own a news source, will I change the speed of access to news outlets I Don't own?
Yeah, probably.. Since they profit from advertisers On the site they own.
Something about that is screwed up.
I don't know what the answer is yet.
I don't even have the question completely grasped yet.
I don't know if monopoly laws would apply, but if I bought a car and it would only run seventy if I was headed somewhere the finance company owned, I'd be PISSED.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/29/18 at 15:16:00

7656545C4156330 wrote:

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/18 at 15:56:58

are you maybe starting to understand why a pure for profit driven system doesn't answer everything and can be corrupting?

Nope, not Starting..
I've Known it for decades.
Corruption is.
That's not a reason to dismiss
Capitalism, but to work against corruption.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 01/29/18 at 17:11:07

The, access, to that 'road' IS Equal.
Everybody can do it.

(Like said previous)
Ya don't like Mexican Food, Don't go into a Mexican Restaurant.
Go to a Restaurant that serves the food you want to eat.

You want to read a book, on a e-reader.
You buy a ‘Kindal’, You can read, ‘Kindal’ format Books
You buy a Nook, (or a bunch of other brands)
You can Not read, ‘kindle’ format, books.

What if, Budweiser Beer, owned a Liquor store.
Would they pile the Bud in front, and the Miller in the Back ?

If you owned a ‘Perkins’ restaurant,
would you serve, ‘Culver’s’ food ?

Saying:
You can’t, ‘favor’, your own companies.
You can’t say, your product is better than the other.
You can’t say your product is cheaper than the other.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/18 at 19:14:00

I don't think it's unreasonable for the consumer to expect their Purchased Access, and No, Not EVERYONE has access to the road, but the people who purchase that access, I don't think, should be limited in how access to one site should be different from another.
People who don't PAY have no access to the internet unless they pack up and go to where they can get online.
I don't have Access to the Product the radio station broadcasts if I don't buy a radio.
People who don't have an ISP don't have access to the internet.
People who don't have a cable package don't have more than broadcast television.
If you want MORE, you Buy access to the Product.
By buying access to the internet, I think the consumer should be able to reasonably expect the same speed of connection with Any website that consumer chooses.
How is that anything other than right?"

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/30/18 at 07:00:04

Nobody said the following:

"Saying:
You can’t, ‘favor’, your own companies.
You can’t say, your product is better than the other.
You can’t say your product is cheaper than the other."

Nobody said that. They can advertise, have cheaper plans, compete as usual. What NN says is you can't provide unusable speeds to certain websites.

I think that the issue is that internet access isn't Mexican food or Budweiser.

If I don't want to use Comcast I have to sell my house, my shops and relocate my business. My friend in Philadelphia has Comncast attached to her electric service, the only way out is for her to move out of her apartment. If I don't want Mexican food I drive 6 blocks.

Another issue is the potential for an ISP provider to eventually limit data so if I have Comcast I can not access MSNBC unless I drive out of town. Of course a competitor could come in, build the infrastructure and in some amount of years provide the same level of service.

JOG had a better analogy - if I buy a car it only drives at its full speed if its going to locations the manufacturer approves. Otherwise it drives slower or uses more fuel.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 01/30/18 at 14:06:50

I disagree with JOG.
Everybody has access, everybody.
It may be along walk from the cardboard box under the bridge,
to the local library.
But, access is available,
and for some that do not pay taxes,
it is, actually free.
(Don’t even have to buy a Computer)
So, Everybody can have access.
Even, ‘Remote’ places. A Satellite connection, could be used.

Then their is:
“…That’s what people are complaining about, not faster internet but equal access….”
I like Pork, so I WANT, Equal access to Pork, regardless of what restaurant I go to.

So, you get a Company to connect you to the Web.
You can go to place, 1, 2, 3, fast. But, you also want to go to place, 4,5,6, and they are slower.
Because, the company you used to connect, owns 1,2,3, and not 4,5,6,
One complains, Why ?
Bill Gates, may buy a new car for his Nieces & Nephews.
Does that mean, he should buy, YOUR, Nieces & Nephews, a new car ?
Because he can ? Same thing.

You really want sites 4,5,6 faster than, 1,2,3, then get a different Service.
Their are Many Options, (In the, ‘Civilized’, Countries)
You want Sites 1,2,3 Just as fast as, 4,5,6.
Their WILL be a service that will provide that.
Just have to look for it.

Doctors owning Hospitals, Hospitals owning Doctors, Doctors/Hospitals, owing Drug Stores.
Cheese and Rice, that sort of thing has been going on for a LONG time.
When Solomon, Mined Salt with Slaves,
I think he also sold salt shakers.

Again, don’t like the food that Restaurant serves,
find a Different Restaurant.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/30/18 at 15:39:27

"Bill Gates, may buy a new car for his Nieces & Nephews.
Does that mean, he should buy, YOUR, Nieces & Nephews, a new car ?
Because he can ? Same thing."

Clarify the connection please. "Same thing" as paid internet access causing some sites to be unusable and others to be fast?

You know this law has nothing to do with access availability right? Its about ISP providers controlling your content through speed.

I would like to remove tax-subsidized public internet from this equation, same a you removed all components surrounding "The" internet in your Toll-road analogy such as Providers- the very thing this law is about.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 01/30/18 at 16:15:36

MN Spring......

I hesitate to even respond to you cause I seriously have a very difficult time understanding anything you say.

but I believe you think there is or will be enough competition in the ISP marketplace to provide for everyone's whims and desires and you'd be fine with the "invisible hand" of the market place determining the best service.

however, what you are ignoring, either just to be difficult or you just don't know or you enjoy the argument, idk why. is that the telecomm industry that controls and owns the ISPs is a highly dysfunctional marketplace, it started as a government mandated monopoly with Ma' Bell, and has never been properly sorted out to allow competition to thrive.

however, that has never happened, so the marketplace is broken.

the roadway analogy is probably the best. but let's take it a bit further, say you pay to go on a toll road, and then you decide you want to get off to go get Mexican food, but at the toll booth to exit, they charge you even more to get off the exit to the Mexican Restaurant. let's say it's called "Little Mexico" you want to go to, but to go to another Mexican restaurant, let's say Taco Cabana, it's free. both are at the same exit, you've traveled the same distance, spent the same on gas. so, now you are forced to participate in another unfair marketplace, as these Mexican restaurants should be able to compete based on their food and service skills and marketing capabilities, but instead are now forced to compete with who has access to the road. Your voice as a consumer has been diminished which is screwing with the invisible hand of the marketplace for Mexican food now.

oh, and that's the only road in town, sure someone else could come in and build a new road, but there's not really enough demand for that so the people that live along that road only have one choice.

and that's 30% of America.

MN, if you respond to this, I may or may not respond, depending on if I understand anything you say.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/30/18 at 20:42:17

FormerlyLostArtist you said it better than me.

If I drive to a location and two Mexican restaurants are at the same exit, but I am charged more to use the Same exit depending on which one I want to eat at means those restaurants aren't marketing me their business as much as they are paying the toll company to let me drive to their place cheaper.

If I want to use Spotify instead of Pandora then Spotify needs to invest in paying my ISP more instead of investing in offering me a better product.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 01/31/18 at 10:25:21

052C312E26312F3A0F2C30370231372A3037430 wrote:

MN Spring... ... I seriously have a very difficult time understanding anything you say.

Not my fault you don’t understand.

However in a nut shell, this tidbit.

Remove, legislate, demand, tell, in any way,
the, ‘exact way’, a person can make money.
Is a part of a, ’Socialist’, government.

And history, past, and present,
has shown everyone how well that system works.

And now for the, “ Panty in a Bunch”, crowd.
No, if you are one of two people making something,
you cannot, Kill the other person to grow your business.

Yet, TELLING, a Company, exactly what they will or will not do,
and exactly how to do that thing.
We already have, and far to much of it.
Yet, some, want More.

If Aspirin was just invented, and no patent.
And a company was selling it for 1.00 a pill.
And everyone was buying it.
It would not take long, for another company to sell it for .50.
then another one for .25, etc etc etc.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/31/18 at 10:48:50

So many batsh!t crazy responses over a simple concept.

Sorry Lost - seems your hope was dashed.
(I completely expected it)

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/31/18 at 11:24:03

Again

"Remove, legislate, demand, tell, in any way,
the, ‘exact way’, a person can make money."

Nobody said that. NN does not do this so your arguments are about things that don't exist. Its not about a person getting access like your walk out of the cardboard box comment, its about paying for equal access.

In all actuality allowing corporations to control our flow of information is the very thing you don't want the government to do.

I don't think you have a full grasp of what NN actually is.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/18 at 11:25:28

And yet, seeing the need for a clear and concise explanation, TT chooses to walk away rather than share his infinite wisdom.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 01/31/18 at 12:28:43

Just some of the statements made by,
supporters’, of more regulation.

“… Another issue is the potential for an ISP provider to eventually limit data so if I have Comcast I can not access MSNBC unless I drive out of town. Of course a competitor could come in, build the infrastructure and in some amount of years provide the same level of service. …”

“…Its about ISP providers controlling your content through speed. …”

“…If I want to use Spotify instead of Pandora then Spotify needs to invest in paying my ISP more instead of investing in offering me a better product. …”

“…doesn’t charge data to use their applications, but they do on non-network sites and they slow them down. …”

“…I’d like to see better more free market solutions, that’s a much much harder fight …”

“…I’d prefer to have some legal protections…"

“…showing some of the physical infrastructure that is manipulated by ISP’s….,”

“…lif your comcast delivery had its way, why wouldn’t they throttle sites they weren’t making as much profit off of….”

“…if the big ISPs are in love with it, chances are it’s not good…”

If a ISP charges 100.00 to the net.
They offer sites 1,2,3, fast, and sites 4,5,6 slow.
But I want sites 4,5,6 fast, the SAME as sites 1,2,3,

What to do.
Chose another ISP ?
Or make a law to, ’Spread the Wealth’ ?

Some complain, that some places can ONLY get ONE, ISP ?
Where exactly is that.?
Just because one has a hard wire, from a company going to their house, it does NOT mean that they, Have to use that company that owns that wire.

My Opinion is:
NN will sort it self out.
It does Not need, ‘Government Regulations',
to TELL, it exactly, what to do.

But their is always, those that believe;
“I am from the Government, and I am here to Help you”.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by T And T Garage on 01/31/18 at 13:27:53

4666646C7166030 wrote:

Some people are too thick headed to ever understand. I guess they refuse to watch a simple video. Nice try though Eegore.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 01/31/18 at 14:17:10

"It does Not need, ‘Government Regulations',
to TELL, it exactly, what to do."

Nobody is doing that. NN is not telling an ISP exactly what to do but I understand that you think it is.

I still think if the government was controlling our internet data in the same way cell providers do, and that ISPs will, then it would be a different story.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/18 at 18:27:36

Some complain, that some places can ONLY get ONE, ISP ?
Where exactly is that.?
Just because one has a hard wire, from a company going to their house, it does NOT mean that they, Have to use that company that owns that wire.

When I started supporting the end of NN I pointed out that we have one isp.
If we get screwed worse, we just do.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/01/18 at 08:17:44

594640475A5D6C5C6C54464A01330 wrote:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/50-million-us-homes-have-only-one-25mbps-internet-provider-or-none-at-all/

a neat map:

http://https://www.therussophile.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/1513020831666-MainMap-copy-1024x724.png

http://www.businessinsider.com/internet-isps-competition-net-neutrality-ajit-pai-fcc-2017-4/#-4

Quote:

Read any speech Pai has given in the last year and you’ll see he always talks about expanding access to broadband. “Closing the digital divide” comes up like clockwork. Most of his plan to do that, though, doesn’t involve increasing the number of ISPs competing in a given area.

Quote:

Could Pai's net-neutrality plan lead ISPs to invest in more robust internet, and even offer it at cheaper prices? Possibly. But most of these companies have been sitting on piles of money for a long time, and they haven’t been very eager to spend the hundreds of millions needed to build out their private infrastructure into more places.

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/58f68973f40dae9a008b5595-1200/.jpg
According to the FCC's latest Internet Access Services report (which is accurate as of 2015), just 24% of developed areas in America had at least two ISPs that offered official broadband speeds.FCC

oh and JOG, I'm not sure "Just because one has a hard wire, from a company going to their house, it does NOT mean that they, Have to use that company that owns that wire." is true. because this:

"One way to do this is a process known as “local loop unbundling.” This involves regulating ISPs to lease or open up the “last mile” of their infrastructure to other ISPs, who’d then sell internet service plans over the wires that are already in place. The immense barriers to entry for any would-be ISP would disappear.

This would be a radical change, one that’d effectively tell Comcast and Charter and Verizon that the infrastructure they helped pay for no longer belongs to them alone. But it could result in a floodgate of competition, potentially bringing far more choice between price and speeds in all parts of the country."

from the Business Insider article

Also for some reason, I'm confused, sometimes it seems like you support net neutrality, at least it's anti corruption/consolidation of power aspects but in this post you say you support the END of Net Neutrality....

given your super conservative bent, I imagine you buying their BS about NN hook, line and sinker.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/01/18 at 08:21:02

0424262E3324410 wrote:

if the government was controlling our internet data in the same way cell providers do, both JOG and MNSprings would be screaming from the mountain tops about corruption and evil government overstepping it's rolls. But because it's unelected corporations that do it, they are fine with it.....

:-/

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/01/18 at 10:22:38

You act like I have a Clue about how phone data are dealt with, outside the fact that the nsa sniffs all of our data.

If there's a correlation, please explain.

I don't think I've said anything supporting anyone limiting access or speed and said I'm in favor of it.
One day, hopefully, the libertarian position I continue pushing will be seen for what it is.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 02/01/18 at 14:17:08

Cell providers no matter how much you pay can adjust your access speed as they see fit.

If I have Verizon I can access their apps free of data usage and charges for data, if I use anyone else's I am charged. So if I want to use my phone as a GPS to drive somewhere I can not use the best app for my needs unless I want data/roaming/usage charges. They can increase my phone bill for using Amazon over eBay.

This is exactly what NN kept ISP's from doing to all internet access.

However I could change providers week to week to accommodate my data usage at the cost of activation and cancellation fees.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 02/01/18 at 14:38:58

I had some numbers run for my location:

"Some complain, that some places can ONLY get ONE, ISP ?
Where exactly is that.?
Just because one has a hard wire, from a company going to their house, it does NOT mean that they, Have to use that company that owns that wire."

Where my business is - Yes, the wire that connects into the building DOES apply to one ISP provider, we can not use it for anything other than Comcast. I can try to pay Centurylink, the only other ISP here to bring in lines however they can not offer the speeds we use for work data transfer. They said maybe in a few years they would have "larger lines" but to pay for them it would be in the 10's of thousands.

I can get satellite internet and I asked for a quote for our typical activity, I sent 1 years worth of usage statistics to the company. The quote for satellite internet is $4,100 - $4,800 monthly. This quote came with a lengthy explanation of how this type of service is typically used briefly, for emergencies and not at the amounts we use. Also I would have to lease or buy what amounts to a military grade dish.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by MnSpring on 02/01/18 at 15:45:24

WHAT ????
$4,000.00 a Month ????
You either have H.R.C. doing your negotiation,
(So she can put $3,950.00 in her, 'foundation')
or your company, you did the quote for,
Is one, HUGE, company.

Geostationary Communication Satellites,
The only down fall,
the dish Has to be outside,
And in a VERY, Heavy storm,
That would be, VERY heavy,
You may loose connection.
Normal clouds, no problem.

Can you see the sky?
Can you mount a dish to a building, or a pole in the ground?
You can get on the internet, at 50.00 or less bucks a month.

Just do the research, you will find out.

“…the wire that connects into the building
DOES apply to one ISP provider,
we can not use it for anything other than Comcast…”

Perhaps, you did not understand.
the part that was in front of: “… use that company that owns that wire.”…
Which was: “…it does NOT mean that they, Have to…”

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/01/18 at 16:03:47

Internet, telephone and cable, bundled by the telephone company.
I CAN'T drop the landline and keep other things. If I drop internet I "Save " about ten bucks. They have it sewn up.

Title: Re: Net Neutrality Explained - Genius!!
Post by Eegore on 02/03/18 at 12:11:30

I can assure you I can not get internet that provides the speeds we use for about $50.00 a month where I live.

I can get very slow service at that price and never get our work done on time.