|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Charging system /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1516527884 Message started by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/21/18 at 01:44:44 |
|
Title: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/21/18 at 01:44:44 Does anybody know how to get more power out of the charging system or do I have to rewrap it and make the wine jeans tighter is there like a different regulator we can put on there that'll put out more power cuz usually bikes are regulated by the regulator |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Dave on 01/21/18 at 02:56:49 We have about 100 watts of power we believe. Some aftermarket stators claim to have more power - but there is no proof. There also is no real data on what the regulator/rectifier can handle. You may be able to reapportion the power - Changing the headlight from a 50/65 watt bulb to a 20 Watt LED helps, the running lights are 3 watts each (2 in front one tail light). If you want extra power you may need tighter wine jeans. :-? |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Steve H on 01/21/18 at 13:42:48 I've seen different output amounts on the web for our bike. I've seen a little over 100w, 120w, 165w, and 185w. I can't find any information from Suzuki that states what we have. To get more power you would have to rewind the stator with thicker wire at the same number of turns. It's pretty tight as it is so there wouldn't be much gain. A MOSFET regulator might give you a little more useable power but probably wouldn't be worth the hassle of the rewiring necessary. The manufacturer of our voltage regulator will not talk with end users, only manufacturers. I wrote and asked for specs. They said talk to the motorcycle manufacturer. Go with what Dave said, change to LED bulbs to gain back wattage. Just remember that wattage unused is burned in the regulator. When you aren't using the extra 'saved' watts, they will make the voltage regulator run hotter. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Armen on 01/21/18 at 16:36:46 It always helps to up the wire gauge of the wires involved in the charging system, including the leads to and from the battery. That, and making sure the grounds and other connections are clean and happy. I've dealt with a lot of older Japanese bikes with anemic charging systems. Just bought a bunch of LED instrument bulbs. Not a big draw, but every watt counts on these gutless systems. Obviously, head and tail light are bigger users. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/21/18 at 18:42:25 655E5344555942445F575A45360 wrote:
Wouldn't I want more smaller windings to increase the voltage ? |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Dave on 01/22/18 at 03:13:54 163A29300C1C3A2E2F33323E295B0 wrote:
Why would you want more voltage?.....it is amperage that we are lacking. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/22/18 at 03:39:34 5D666B7C6D617A7C676F627D0E0 wrote:
Why would you want more voltage?.....it is amperage that we are lacking.[/quote] My bad I meant more amperage |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Dave on 01/22/18 at 03:42:51 For more amperage.....you want the same number of windings with a larger wire diameter. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/22/18 at 08:17:09 714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:
OK. So know one knows what the power out put is? Looks like I will have to test it to find out |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/22/18 at 08:58:57 One of my other bikes is a Suzuki DRZ. That bike makes 70VAC on each leg (the LS is 100VAC) and has a total output in the range of 200 watts. A common mod to increase available power (known in the DRZ community as the "Free Power" mod) is to rewire the R/R output (charge wire) direct to the battery. This mod increases the voltage measured at the battery. The stator and R/R system are not producing any additional power, but the mod eliminates a common faulty OEM plug, and excess wiring length, part of the OEM system that through resistance lowers the amount of power getting to the battery. With this mod you can get an additional 0.5VDC delivered to the battery - so in effect there is additional capacity. As mentioned above, going all LED will make more power available on the DC bus as well. Eliminating the decompression solenoid will also free up some DC Bus capacity, but if you're going to go with a high compression piston, you may need to retain that feature. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/22/18 at 13:29:36 6862666C676E6A633D3B3F0F0 wrote:
OK thanks. I think I will just wire it to where I have a main switch to shut everything off for when I need all the power |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/22/18 at 16:41:18 You have to read all of the words. The idea is to have the R/R go direct to the battery without going through connectors, switches or low gauge wires. You may be limited to 200 or so watts continuous, but the battery surly can handle small bursts of high current as long as it has adequate time to recover. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/22/18 at 16:48:23 313B3F353E37333A646266560 wrote:
OK thanks |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/22/18 at 18:35:40 OMG,"Energy can neither be created or destroyed" there is no "Free Energy".! The alternator makes the same power and the bike uses the same amount as it always did.If you raise the voltage of the battery you may exceed the charging rate and shorten battery life, it may have more stored power but this is only good when hitting the starter button. You've only one path instead of two, that the power can take to feed both lighting and the ignition systems ,unless you have greatly increased it's wire size to carry the entire load , the greater amperage will drive up resistance , drive down voltage ,causing the wire to heat which will be dispelled.(causing a net loss in electrical energy). But even if you have gone to heavier wire you may be charging the battery at a higher rate, ( a 200 amp battery would only be charged to 207 amps at the higher voltage)but your also discharging the battery at a higher rate. you gain nothing. Shorting the path of flow does nothing, the speed of flow through a properly sized copper wire being 280,000 kilometers per/ sec or 173,000 miles per/sec. If the connector is a problem ,cut it out and hard wire the circuit. the extra voltage you see at the battery is because regulators produce a discharge voltage between 14 -15.5 volts . |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/22/18 at 22:59:30 0300150C000F5559610 wrote:
I'm going to try and run it closer to 16 volts because when I go and hit the nitrous I want the ignition system to be nice and hot I'm going to put a different coil on it eventually they have spark enhancers that I got on my Turbo Bike but they don't make one for this bike might have to talk to him and see if they can make me one |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/23/18 at 06:16:53 Batman, take a chill. First off, the DRZ community calls it a "free Power" mod, not a free energy mod. Secondly, I put it in quotes and noted that there actually isn't any additional power behind this mod, but just a more efficient routing of power. On the DRZ (and I believe the LS) the DC power leaves the R/R on 14ga. wires and then is spliced into the harness which is mostly 18ga. This reduction in wire gauge creates resistance and a voltage drop. By running the 14ga. R/R wires directly to the battery more of the current available from the R/R reaches the battery, and is therefore available to the entire DC power bus as reserve capacity. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/23/18 at 09:29:14 I give up! There is no reserve capacity ! Amps x volts =watts (power) If for example the output of our alternator was 10 amps at 14 volts it would produce 140 watts of power in your scenario we would have 140watts delivered to the battery at 14.5 volts . 140 watts divided by 14.5=9.655 amps , not 10amps there is no Free ride ! the mod is a waste of time ! It has an other downfall as well. If you have a weak or dying cell in the battery and are miles from home, unable to restart your bike ,and you find someone to give your bike a jump to get it started you can drive the bike home using the power from the alternator, rather than push it (ask me how I know),with your mod all juice has to come from the battery ,even if you start the bike, you'll be lucky to drive a couple of miles until the battery dies yet again ,leaving you the pleasant chore of pushing it the rest of the way home . |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Armen on 01/24/18 at 03:19:07 Batman, I get the energy lost theory, but the reality is when thinner wires are used, there is more resistance. The wires with more resistance use some of the energy produced to make heat. So, chubbier, shorter wires waste less heat because they aren't as hot. I've done a bunch of voltage drop tests on bikes and a lot of times I see more than 1 VDC drop between the battery and wherever the juice is being used. A combination of corroded connections and thin wires. I did a chubby wires swap on a 900SS Duc and picked up over 1 volt at the starter by switching to heavier battery and starter leads. Had a 700 Nighthawk with starting/running problems that was only seeing 8 volts at the ignitor, despite having 12.7 at the battery. Miles of wire and tons of crappy connections between the battery and the ignitor. Lots of work, and the bike was happy again. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/18 at 12:34:43 5350455C505F0509310 wrote:
What do you think the battery is? When Watts Consumed > Watt Available on the DC power bus, then the battery becomes the reserve. That's what batteries do, they store electrons to be used later - the very definition of "reserve". If you have a higher voltage going to the battery, it recharges faster from a starting events, or for those times when Watts Consumed > Watt Available. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 12:52:23 Armen ,I have no doubt that larger wires will produce less voltage drop, but do you want to rewire your harness with welding cable ? I believe the wire size used on the bike is a mix of size to carry load safely and manufacturing costs. the fact that the wire may not do the job as well as larger wire is compensated by the fact that the voltage from the alternator(14-15.5) is higher than the voltage needed by anything on the bike (12v.) allowing for the line drop. The fact that even in stock mod the battery charges to about 12.7 volts , shows that after all the needs of the bike are meet there is still voltage and amps left to do the job. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 13:03:18 Just got more parts |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 13:03:49 :) |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 13:04:12 :) |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 13:11:52 686B7E676B643E320A0 wrote:
One might consider enlarging the wiring to the TCI (AKA CDI) and Coil to get a better spark at startup. 10v at the bat will be knocked down more at the TCI and coil. It does have to run all the way to the right control, then the left, and safeties before the wick can be lit. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 13:40:33 I will let you know what I do with the bike |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 15:20:00 Vercy , Do you think a rise in voltage into the TCI would have an effect on the signal coming into the TCI that retards the timing at startup? I haven't a clue. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 15:41:46 7576637A7679232F170 wrote:
No, the signal from the starter to the TCI retards timing. But there is a point where there isn't enough power to run the TCI/coil and if it has to go thru several feet of skinny wire and several bad connections and a big current draw like the headlight... you haven't got a chance in hell that you're getting even 10v at the TCI/coil on stock wiring. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 17:10:45 Vercy ,I have a 95 ,it doesn't have the headlight cut out relay, my light is on when my bike starts the light dims when the starter is engaged but the bike never fails to start. If the bike starts an there is less than 10v then we must assume the ignition fires at a lower voltage. we assumed more than 10v but that is at the battery. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/18 at 17:17:35 I don't think that the Savage has a charging issue. Mr Horsepower is looking for a way to increase available current. I shared what works on a platform (DRZ) that operates at or near the limits of its capability. For many DRZ pilots that extra 0.5v matters. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 17:26:01 Gray Of course batteries are a reserve ,but a 200amp battery holds 200 amps when it is fully charged where does the power go that's being generated by the alternator? it's wasted to ground .You can't build higher capacity without a larger battery. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/18 at 18:39:35 Alright, now we're having a conversation. Let's use your 200a battery example. What if, with all of the electrical loads turned on, and maybe an accessory, that the charging system doesn't get the battery back to a full 200a charge. Everything is working as it should, but a few connectors and some thin wire prevent that available current from allowing the battery to reach its intended potential. Now that extra 0.5v that can be directly routed to the battery is the difference between a good start or a walk home. That's the threshold I'm talking about. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 18:45:05 Best $19.00 I spent |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 19:33:00 5A594C5559560C00380 wrote:
same as all mine. due to the long line and the headlight taking juice off the same line (I think) the voltage will be less at the tap point. add in the resistance of the wire back and several contact resistance and maybe a bad joint or 2 and you got less. I know it pulses down to 10v or so and still starts, how much less can't tell you. But less and it'll crank till your starter melts. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/24/18 at 19:57:47 ;D |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 20:10:05 Vercy,The ignition is very sensitive to voltage only because it draws very little amperage .When the field collapses a higher voltage is induced in the secondary windings ,but may also be echoed back toward the TDI by the primary as at that time no voltage is applied. If we raise voltage ,we may raise the echo an damage the TDI ,this is the reason use of a larger stronger race coil is not recommended . Raising the voltage on our stock coil may do the same damage.(don't know)...just did some research, Volts to the module should never exceed 14 or damage will occur ,13 and change is OK. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 20:43:30 Gary ,your confusing voltage with power,voltage is the "push" amperage is the "flow" watts is the" work". amp x volts = watts. Your battery is rated in amp/hrs ,not volt /hrs." Our "battery would have 200 cca(cold cranking amps) @12volts,by the time your voltage falls to the point it will barely supply the ignition ,the amps in the battery will not be enough to turn over the motor fast enough to create the compression it needs to start.(you may be able to push start it if you have found and cured your generation problem). |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/02/18 at 20:38:55 You could always go to a 16v battery |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/02/18 at 21:30:45 Zx-14 ,you could wire a 12volt and a 6 volt battery in series and have 18 volts, but you'll have a very hot spark, for a very short time, as anything over 14 volts will damage the TCI ignition module. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/02/18 at 21:45:13 7F7C69707C7329251D0 wrote:
I have ran 24v on my zx14 I would flip a switch and it would put 24 to the ignition system and the I would spray the crap out of it then turn it off and drive on 12v but I had to change the batteries when I got home I should have wired it to charge both lol |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/02/18 at 21:48:06 Buy it should be fine with 16v because 16.8 is still under 18v and that's what most electrical systems can handle. I was going to try and put a regulator on their little put out 16 volts to but I don't know yet still researching LOL |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/02/18 at 22:01:19 Gary, If the load ,with an accessory doesn't allow the battery to fully charge, then the accessory load is to large and the battery will over time discharge and you'll be walking home anyway. If this total load is just barely below total output then the battery will charge ,but take much longer to achieve full charge. There are only three ways to generate more power ,all have to do with your alternator, 1) as Dave said, is to increase the wire size of the stator with the same number of turns. 2) Is to increase the magnetic lies of flux (Field strength ) which we can't do ,because we have fixed magnets ,not electromagnets in the rotor.3) is to raise rpm ,this shifts the angle of the lines of flux making them longer so that they take more time to pass through the winding an create more power .( The reason you test alternator output at 5000 rpm, not at idle). |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/02/18 at 22:16:56 ZX-14 No ,most motorcycles are regulated to between 14 and 15.5 volts . The purpose of the regulator is to limit voltage, not increase it. If you ran 24volts I'm dying to see a diagram of how you did it . please post one! |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/03/18 at 01:47:43 2023362F232C767A420 wrote:
What diagram we ran two batteries and ran to a switch and the 12v through a switch turn the one off turn the other one on you have 24 volts |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/03/18 at 01:48:42 2C2F3A232F207A764E0 wrote:
I will run it on 12 volts and then I will put a battery in there that's a 16 volt battery in tune it on that so I can have the option of riding around on 12 volts or if I'm going to go play with it and race Harley guys I can put a fully charged 16 volt battery in there and spray it but this is only if the 12 volt system won't supply enough to fire the nitrous |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/03/18 at 01:50:09 You sure do a lot of technical talk and big words are you an engineer or electrical engineer or a machinist |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/03/18 at 10:07:52 Zx-14 , 40 years , of work in power plant ,that generated 250 megawatts of power ,may have caused me to pick up some knowledge along the way! working around voltages between 11,500 to 115,000 allows only 1 mistake, your last. I will not comment on your level of knowledge, but rather wish you luck in finding a 16 volt battery. Myself ,I would simply run a hotter sparkplug. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/03/18 at 11:15:56 7F7C69707C7329251D0 wrote:
On motor that's fine but on nitrous you can't and do you know why ? Found one |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/03/18 at 11:20:52 NO! I don't really want to know ,but the battery you show lists as one of it features as being used in race vehicles using 16 volt systems . the Savage has a 12volt system ,and anything or 14 volt can damage the TCI, I f you choose to use this there is a good chance that you'll end up with no spark.Congrats! you found a 16 volt battery ,but you need to stop looking at pictures, and start reading the words. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/04/18 at 07:30:22 Well running a battery you can 't charge sounds as practical as all the other things you come up with to do to the bike . It seems funny that after all the grand things you planned to do ,you've ended up going the same tried and true route as many of the members have. So you're willing to listen to others ,just not me. I'm not an engineer of any kind ,but an average guy with hunger for knowledge , and so I read and learn. I don't understand why you go to a higher voltage, is it to get a hotter spark? It's not needed as the stock ignition system on the bike is strong enough to work as long as the fuel mix remains within the limits of combustion. The only change needed may be in spark timing. If warning you that increased voltage may harm or destroy the TCI is negative in your view ,then I think I will refrain from commenting on your build ,as it seems you have all the answers . |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Armen on 02/08/18 at 17:44:51 FWIW, I wrote to Ricks in NH who make all sorts of electrical goodies, including a high output system for the 350/360 Hondas. They replied that they can't make a higher output system for the Savage because there isn't enough room to add more windings. Those folks are pretty sharp. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/08/18 at 19:34:43 6C5F4048432D0 wrote:
Can they up the voltage regulator to put out 16 or 18 volts |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by Armen on 02/09/18 at 03:08:52 Probably they could make one. But what is the point? The ignition and bulbs would be toast in no time. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/09/18 at 13:38:43 083B242C27490 wrote:
Na they will be fine can you ask them or get me there number thanks |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/09/18 at 22:24:04 ::) |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/11/18 at 01:55:46 7271647D717E2428100 wrote:
Do you know how to full field the regulator so you get Max output out of the charging system |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by verslagen1 on 02/11/18 at 08:25:38 5874677E42527460617D7C7067150 wrote:
Do you know how to full field the regulator so you get Max output out of the charging system[/quote] We don't have alternators, no field coils just magnets, so they're generators. should be easy enough, just change the voltage on the zener diodes. |
|
Title: Re: Charging system Post by batman on 02/11/18 at 09:14:50 Turbo, Full field the regulator? The field has nothing to do with the regulator. the field can't be changed on the Savage unless you replace the magnets in the rotor with stronger ones, and that would tend to over heat the windings in the stator. Give it up, quit trying to make a diamond out of a piece of coal, it's not happening. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |