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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1515236957 Message started by eau de sauvage on 01/06/18 at 03:09:17 |
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Title: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by eau de sauvage on 01/06/18 at 03:09:17 Switching between 4th and top is barely noticeable. What could be the possible reason for not making it taller so you could you know actually cruise on the cruiser without your eyeballs falling out of their sockets? |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/06/18 at 03:32:35 We have pondered this situation on this forum for years....and all we can do is grumble about it. We have even looked for a 5th gear set from another bike that could be used.....we found nothin'. If you change to a taller gearing by using the Kawasaki front pulley or go to chain/sprockets - the small gap between 4th and 5th gear becomes more noticeable, and 5th does become a nice highway cruise gear. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/06/18 at 04:18:28 In my humble opinion, the Savage is not really very good at interstate type travel, due to other design flaws. It doesn't seem real stable at those speeds. However, I do wish the 5th gear ration was a bit higher. But... I also wish first gear were a bit lower. For me, if I had my druthers, based upon the riding that I do, I would opt for a lower first gear first. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by batman on 01/06/18 at 16:18:02 I think Suzuki may have based 5th gear on the fact that if it were taller, the bike having low hp ,might not be able to handle even mild hills without down shifting to 4th often. The fact that 5th is only about 250 rpm lower ( at WOT) , makes down shifting unneeded in most cases. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/06/18 at 17:10:31 Without the fifth gear I wouldn't be trying to shift into sixth. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by badwolf on 01/06/18 at 17:26:43 I have both Kaw pulleys and a 150/90 15 Kenda 230 on the rear, dropping my rpm at 60mph from 4100 down to 3400 in fifth gear. Going from Fla to Western NY and back the last 2 years I rarely have had to downshift to 4th to maintain 65-70 on the Interstate. My 4th gear is very close to the stock 5th. That is riding solo with loaded hard bags and a box on the back, pushing a BIG windshield. Now riding double and loaded heavy with ''riding buddies'' on 1200 sport bikes, you WILL feel like a turtle! I feel Suzuki made and markets this bike as a ''entry level'' cruser for smaller people and girls that can not handle a 900lb bike, riding or stopped. I have built mine into a small ''bagger.''If the designers saw my bike and heard how I ride it, they would just shake their heads! My friend in NY is a dealer and can't believe how I ride this bike. Said he has only seen 2 with over 15k on them. (but he does NOT read this forum) I think if our 5th gears had one tooth swapped, and they sold this bike with a solo seat,,,,,,,,,,,hummmm. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by hotrod on 01/06/18 at 18:15:04 So what year-model Kaw. are the front and rear pulleys from ? |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by jcstokes on 01/06/18 at 18:28:19 A very interesting point Badwolf, I've never carried a pillion and given the amount of "bobbing" done by owners, it would appear that a majority of people here ride solo. Even the front pulley mod might help stop the eternal search for sixth. However, we must wonder how much longer Suzuki will continue to produce the bike in view of more stringent emission requirements in the developed western world. I also note that Yamaha does a solo version of their Bolt. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by badwolf on 01/06/18 at 20:04:03 Neither of the pulleys ( 25 + 65 ) are bolt-on. They need lathe work to adapt. Dave here does some front pulleys from time to time and sells them in the marketplace. Just the front 25 tooth and a 140/90 15 rear tire will make a huge difference, and is pretty easy and reversible if you don't like them. I would not push anyone to go with both pulleys and 150 tire unless they run a LOT of Interstate. There is also the option of chain conversion. That is pretty easy and gives you a huge choice of gearing, and is easy to switch for trips, or around town. You get the extra maintenance of a chain, but the new ones aren't too bad, and should last 20k or so. Before you commit to big tall gears, remember you are raising ALL the gears, not just 5th. Ride around for at least a week without using 1st gear. If you aren't comfortable starting in 2nd you don't want to go with a really tall gear. I live in South Fla and it is FLAT here, a occasional trip to the mountains doesn't bother me, as I have over 40k on this gearing and am used to it. I bought another S-40 and when I test rode it it seemed low. I am not sure why some guys want a lower 1st. Another big concern is your speedo. Ours runs of the output shaft of the tranny, not the front wheel like most bikes. Mine was 23% off with the tall gearing and big tire. You can swap the front wheel and get a speedo off whatever you used, or I went with a GPS unit. Works great, as long as it can ''see'' the sky. Not so good in tunnels. It sometimes goes wierd passing under bridges or underpasses, but comes right back online when you are back in the open. MMRanch does some big trips with a lot of Interstate with a 25 tooth front pulley and a 140/90 15 rear tire. (last I saw him) He has gotten used to it. (but now he has bought a Guzzi, so we will see which he rides the most) For what it was intended, I think the S-40 does what it is suppose to. BUT, a LITTLE taller 5th gear would be a improvement for most of it's riders. If you want what you want, it is a pretty easy chunk of raw material to start with! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by hotrod on 01/06/18 at 22:02:51 Thanks badwolf. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/06/18 at 22:40:39 The answer In a word Marketing |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/07/18 at 03:31:51 Like Badwolf......I run both front and rear Kawasaki pulleys on my bike. Unlike Badwolf.....my bike is a stripped down Cafe' with a Wiseco piston, cam, head work, Mikuni carb - and the extra power pulls the gearing really well. 1st gear is tall - if a stock bike goes 9mph at idle in 1st gear mine will go about 12mph.....it is like starting out in 2nd gear but since I don't ride double or have a windshield or bags it is no problem. My bike will outrun most Savage bikes (except Verslagen's Beast and Lancer's Rex and maybe Ruttly's bike....anyone that has done the piston/cam/carb swap is going to be running much better than a stock bike), and my bike can loaf along at 75mph in high gear all day long and never break a sweat. The taller gearing has dropped the head temperature on the bike 20 degrees at interstate cruising speeds, as well as making the ride feel far more relaxed with the lower engine rpm. High gear is too tall for obtaining maximum speed - if I want to explore going fast it has to be done in 4th. I do buy used front Kawasaki pulleys and machine them to fit, and I should have some available by the end of January. The front pulley works fine with the stock engine, and it is a worthwhile improvement. It should take you about an hour to install the pulley, and the only special tools you need is a Dremel and a large socket and torque wrench. I also have a couple of rear pulleys I have machined.....I haven't yet sold a rear pulley to anyone, as it requires a lot of machine work and won't be real cheap. I have to machine some width off the rear pulley hub and then I install a bushing to eliminate the pulley wobble that is inherent in the sock design, I have to bore new mounting holes in the Kawasaki pulley, and the rear shock bolt needs to be modified for clearance. I also make a small cover that goes over the pulley mounting area to cover the original holes...this really isn't necessary as it is only a cosmetic touch. Then everything is powder coated and it includes mounting bolts that have been re-plated. The double pulley setup will slow the acceleration of a stock engine down considerably - but a modified engine pulls it just fine. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1490012095 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1484806731 |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Bobber on 01/08/18 at 13:27:37 Dave Does this front pulley work with a stock belt? Speed is unimportant to me. Just cruse on my chopper version. Regards, Bobber |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/08/18 at 13:32:46 4C5358514C5A5B3E0 wrote:
Yes - it uses the stock belt....it does require that you move the axle adjustment all the way forward. If you just cruise at speed of 60 mph or less.....you most likely don't need the pulley. If you like to cruise at 70 and over.....the lower gearing makes for a more relaxed experience. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/09/18 at 06:17:45 5C676A7D6C607B7D666E637C0F0 wrote:
Yes - it uses the stock belt....it does require that you move the axle adjustment all the way forward. If you just cruise at speed of 60 mph or less.....you most likely don't need the pulley. If you like to cruise at 70 and over.....the lower gearing makes for a more relaxed experience.[/quote] Mine running stock seems to move along just fine at 60 to 65 in 5th gear - engine seems to be smooth at that speed. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by batman on 01/09/18 at 13:27:55 If you have a stock motor and decide to go to taller gearing for highway use ,be aware there is something of a trade off , while you will be turning lower rpm ,say cruising at 60-70 , passing slower vehicles will be a bit more challenging . After reaching peak torque (3400rpm) torque will drop off a bit faster and horsepower will build a bit slower, increasing both the time and distance needed to pass safely. While this may not be of major concern on the super highways ,you'll need to be more focused on back roads and two lane highways . Motors with larger/higher compression pistons and cams don't have a worry due to producing 25-30% greater hp. and torque peaks somewhere between 3400-4000 rpm. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/10/18 at 06:49:39 Very good advice, Batman! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/10/18 at 07:10:54 It would be interesting to get an some actual "real world" data on this. The majority of the folks that have done the front conversion haven't noticed a seat of the pants reduction in the accelerations (provided it was not done in conjunction with the oversize 140/90-15 rear tire). The change from the 23 tooth front pulley to the 25 tooth pulley makes a 8.7% gearing change. Folks discover that they often are using a lower gear after the swap to the Kawasaki pulley - so the only time they really lose acceleration is after they have shifted into 5th gear. When they need to accelerate quickly they just shift down a gear or two......3rd gear which previously had a top speed of 75.3 mph now has a top speed of 81.8mph - 4th gear which used to have a top speed of 90 mph is now 97.8 mph at 6,500 rpm with the stock size rear tire. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/10/18 at 08:35:28 To me, trying to go much over 65 MPH on this bike is dangerous! It's design is just not made for that! I have been up to 70 or more MPH on mine just to see how it acted, and I (been riding since 1966) was taken back at its instability. For me, I would rather have a lower 1st gear than a higher 5th gear. I would also rather have gear spacing better - a better 4th to 5th space. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/10/18 at 10:42:02 If it was that unstable at such a low speed I'd think it's needing some attention. I run through sweepers at sixty. With a fork brace, straight rims and healthy tires on a decent road it should be stable at any speed it will run in a straight line. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by batman on 01/10/18 at 14:56:18 " 4th gear which use to have a top speed of 90 mph is now 98.7mph at 6500rpm" Now all we need to find is a stock bike that will make 98.7mph ,when in truth we can't even find a stock bike that will do 90mph because a stock bike can't due much more than about 5800 rpm(87 mph )due to lack of hp. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/10/18 at 15:06:48 2427322B2728727E460 wrote:
True dat! ;) |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by verslagen1 on 01/10/18 at 15:08:13 4spd=94.3@6500 5spd=97.3@6500 What do consider stock, my '96 will do 85 uphill with drilled stock muff and rejet. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by badwolf on 01/10/18 at 15:23:54 ''piedmontbuckeye'' wrote, ''To me, trying to go much over 65 MPH on this bike is dangerous! It's design is just not made for that! I have been up to 70 or more MPH on mine just to see how it acted, and I (been riding since 1966) was taken back at its instability. '' Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but, that statement might start something to make the ''oil wars'' look tame! Check your headset, swingarm, and wheel bearings, if one or more of them are bad or loose your stabilty will suffer. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Bobber on 01/10/18 at 15:52:14 I'm just looking for lower RPM at 65. Mine is a chopper with taller back shocks and rides smooth (suspension wise) at 80 but the motor is buzzing. I live mid Atlantic near the beach. This taller tooth front pulley will work for me. Though 90 even with my modified motor is not likely, and I'm cool with that. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by batman on 01/10/18 at 17:27:31 Bobber If you want to stay with the belt drive (I would) then the kawa front pulley is a good way to go ,and I would not try to talk anyone out of it's use .I just wanted to point out that it wasn't a free ride , that there is a trade off , the distance and time needed to pass others will be extended . If your aware of what I posted above (in reply #15) and you feel that you can live with it ,go for it! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/10/18 at 20:05:12 I've got the front pulley. It affects crawling through a parking lot and after a few tanks of gas, I stopped being aware of the minor change in acceleration. Time to pull off a pass? Drop a gear if you're loafing. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by eau de sauvage on 01/10/18 at 22:50:16 OK I might do the pully mod one day. When I get this bike going over 130kms my eyeballs shake around so much that the whole world is bouncing around. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/11/18 at 08:02:22 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
Have you ridden any bike (like BMW's) that ARE stable at those speeds? Face it, this Savage is not the greatest engineered bike, and with the design of a short frame, terrible shocks, rider position, etc. it is just not up to highway speeds for any length of time or safety. It's good for what it is designed for - short trips or short cruising. Mostly it is more for looking at, modifying, and standing around bragging about how one modified it!! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/11/18 at 08:50:28 Just because a VW doesn't feel like a Cadillac and a Savage doesn't feel like a BMW doesn't mean it's unsafe at speed. Nobody said it's a great machine. You implied that they are unsafe at normal highway speeds. I disagree. Loudly. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/11/18 at 08:54:48 2D3234332E2918281820323E75470 wrote:
I didn't imply it, I SAID it!! At 65 mph, this bike is not as stable as it should be. And at 70 or 80??? I wouldn't want to be on it! It's not about comfort but about stability! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by verslagen1 on 01/11/18 at 09:17:18 273E32333A3839233522343C322E32570 wrote:
Can you identify the measures or tests of stability? At times (going 70/80) I have felt like the bike was on rails thru a power sweeper. Yet jumping over a several times painted over line induced a head shake. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by badwolf on 01/11/18 at 13:07:14 Hey, come to think about it......my S-40 is not as stable as my old 900lb Gold Wing was! Must be the engineers messed up and built a defective bike! WHO CAN I SUE? Should I sue Suzuki, or the whole country of Japan? |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Bobber on 01/11/18 at 13:20:31 Batman I only drive in the right lane anyway. As for it not being safe at highway speeds, really? This is a great bike for mods! You can make it ride what ever way it suits you. Mine is a perfect example. Be happy to send a picture but need an E-mail to do it. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/12/18 at 07:15:50 3B283F3E212C2A28237C4D0 wrote:
Can you identify the measures or tests of stability? At times (going 70/80) I have felt like the bike was on rails thru a power sweeper. Yet jumping over a several times painted over line induced a head shake.[/quote] I admit, that there is no "objective" standard or test available here, but for me, I have hundreds of thousands of miles of experience. On the S40, even little aberrations in the road surface cause some problems, things also like dips in the pavement, resurfacing lines that run parallel to the direction of travel, rain grooves, etc. The three primary causes of its instability are 1) short wheelbase, 2) fork rake, and 3) terrible shocks, both front and rear. These can all be fixed with about another $1,000 to $2,000 changes. But after all that expense, one would still have a mediocre bike. The instability isn't necessarily due to lightness of weight as someone has suggested above. I admit, that weight can help, but I remember my first "real" bike, a 1965 Honda 305cc SuperHawk. Ironically, it was more stable than my current S40. Having said all that, I think the S40 is a very good bike for the cash and can be a great deal of fun (and safe too) if one keeps these limitations in mind, and learns to handle the bike to compensate for its limitations as we all do with anything that we own, cars included. It is not my "cup of tea," but a lot of you get enjoyment out of modifying the original into cafe style bikes or other styles and you guys do a great job and your work looks fantastic. The S40 is a GREAT base for that kind of modifications! You fellas can be very proud of your abilities in that area! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by batman on 01/12/18 at 15:07:41 Piedmontbuckeye ,your running unmatched tires buy two different makers ,that may cause some instability. Buy the shinko front to match your new rear tire and see if that doesn't help . |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Bobber on 01/12/18 at 16:11:59 Piedmontbuckeye, Thanks for your appreciation for the custom bikes! This is why I love the Savage. Just like cruising and I love a single. Takes me back to the old days. Sure enough can buy a bike that can do much more but not one with more character, and possibilities. Need that front sprocket Dave. |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/13/18 at 03:53:37 We got crappy weather and snow last night. I will be working on a batch of pulleys today! |
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Title: Re: Why did suzuki bother with a 5th gear Post by Dave on 01/14/18 at 15:52:55 514E454C514746230 wrote:
Done.....see the Marketplace listing! |
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