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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Stator may be hors de combat /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1509226606 Message started by Gyrobob on 10/28/17 at 14:36:46 |
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Title: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/28/17 at 14:36:46 Based on what I have read in other charging system posts here, I am dismayed. The main clue was that the battery was not being recharged. The bike died in traffic about a mile from home. I let it sit for 20 minutes, got it restarted and rode it back. The voltmeter on the bike shows small random changes in voltage at different engine rpm. When a multimeter is connected to the battery, varying the rpm does not vary the voltage. The three yellow wires connected to the stator give good news and bad news. ---- Good news: None are grounded, and there is continuity amongst all three. ---- Bad news: at 2000 rpm they each output about 26 volts. 4000 rpm, 49 volts. 5000 rpm 63 volts. When doing a multimeter diode test, the rectifier shows .5volts one way and 0 volts the other on the red wire to the yellow stator wires, and then doing it again on the black wire with the white stripe. So,... the stator voltage is consistent, increases with rpm, but does not get up to the 100VAC everyone here says is required. The rectifier diodes check out. I have no facts on the voltage regulator; I know of no way to test it. Why would the stator behave normally except for it putting out ~63 volts instead of 100? In other experiences I have had with motorcycles and with aircraft, a stator just dies altogether. It is as if three equally spaced windings failed. One wonders. Do any of you Savage Gurus have suggestions? ---- Unless I get some better understanding of what is going on here, it looks like I'll be replacing the stator. Not a quick/easy job. ---- Seems like ebay has stators ranging from $40 to $225. ---- Amazon's range from $40 to $240. ---- Gaskets will be around $20. Please let me know if there is something dopey I missed, and can solve my problem. http://https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/RYCA%20CS-1%20LS650%20S40%20Savage/DSC08989_zps19mnwics.jpg |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/17 at 15:37:30 Magnets not up to snuff? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Serowbot on 10/28/17 at 15:58:30 Stator time... (don't forget,.. once you have the bolts out,... there's a giant magnetic pull on the case... You'll think you forgot a few bolts)... 8-) Beautiful bike... :-* |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/17 at 16:01:38 Pull the inspection plug first. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 10/28/17 at 17:12:39 JOG , raised a point about the magnets. Have you ever had the rotor off? A sharp blow or dropping it can ruin the magnets. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/17 at 18:57:21 I'm totally not a charging system troubleshooting guy. I'm just asking if that's a possibility. The symptoms seem to point to that. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/29/17 at 12:58:05 Is there some procedure for checking the voltage regulator? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/29/17 at 13:15:42 283E29342C39342F5B0 wrote:
I have heard that,.... one guy used several strips of strapping tape making a loop/handle to pull outward on the case so he wouldn't risk gouging the case or dinging the gasket. I wonder if the gasket is usually saved and reused, or does it always tear apart when that cover is taken off? Thanks for the beautiful bike comment. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Serowbot on 10/29/17 at 13:31:07 Mine tore while I was fighting the magnet... Best have a new one ready... it's not something you want to do over... Another tip... if you'll be removing the sidestand... insert washers or coins in the spring coils while the sidestand is extended, to make reinstall easy... http://goldwingdocs.com/images/HowTo/Kickstand/Kickstand02.jpg |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/29/17 at 13:32:56 6E786F726A7F72691D0 wrote:
I figured as much. I'll just order a new gasket when I order the stator, then. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/29/17 at 18:28:29 Go with an OEM stator. I've heard both good and bad about aftermarket units, but the OEM stator always works. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/29/17 at 18:43:52 565C58525950545D030501310 wrote:
"...the OEM stator always works." If it always worked I wouldn't be in this situation. $225 vs $40. That's a huge diff. Not having to do it over again is a sensible thing to do. crud! |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by ohiomoto on 10/30/17 at 06:18:36 Pretty sure I still have a stator for sale. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/30/17 at 06:38:43 Well, I'm pretty sure I'd like to know more about it. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by ohiomoto on 10/30/17 at 07:26:43 It's on a parts bike that came with my bike that had a cracked piston. I'll have to dig the lower end out and make sure I didn't sell it. My contact info is in here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1466172778 |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 10/30/17 at 08:34:10 What year is the parts bike, and how many miles were on it? On a related subject, I have a large pile of Savage parts (take-offs) leftover from when my buddy Jud and I did a couple of RYCA bikes. Fenders, seats, light, saddlebags, windshield, mirrors, on and on and on. Maybe we could trade. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/04/17 at 08:16:53 UPDATE 4 Nov 2017 The local Suzuki price is a little over $500 (includes tax) I'll think I use the Electrosport version and also replace the rectifier/regulator and the gasket. On Amazon it'll be around $100. There are some available for $40, and they might be very well made, but I am a little angsty about something that only costs about $20 to make. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Steve H on 11/04/17 at 08:36:42 I put one of those $40 stators on mine 2 years ago and haven't had any problems since. Seems to work just fine. Biggest issue is you don't get the igniton pickup coil and you have to cut and splice the wires. I don't know if you did it or not but stator voltage checks are with the stator unplugged from the regulator. The easiest check of the regulator is replacement. You can check the diodes. I've never heard of a way to check the regulating electronics. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/04/17 at 09:11:04 78633A39383F3D320B0 wrote:
________________________________________________________________ I checked the stator voltages with the rectifier/regulator disconnected. "three yellow wires connected to the stator give good news and bad news. ---- Good news: None are grounded, and there is continuity amongst all three. ---- Bad news: at 2000 rpm they each output about 26 volts. 4000 rpm, 49 volts. 5000 rpm 63 volts." 100 volts is required. Glad yours worked well. I would expect they usually do. In the winter around here, though, I use a heated jacket and gloves, GPS, more lights, etc. The Electrosport stator with their rectifier/regulator is supposed to put out 20% or so more watts, so I'll probably be getting those. Thanks for the info. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 11/06/17 at 06:54:08 Heated jacket & gloves & extra lights &gps ? Don't you think your asking a bit to much from your stater? It may have caused overheating /damage to the windings and the reason for your low voltage output. did you test between the yellow wires for resistance?(ohms) and if so what readings did you get? Clymers says 1-2 ohms , if you have readings less than that ,it may be that the coating on the wire as broken down shortening the path of flow and lowering the voltage output. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/06/17 at 13:58:21 3E3D28313D3268645C0 wrote:
I wasn't asking too much from the stator because I never used the gloves, and I have LEDs in the headlight for daytime riding. They only take about an amp. So, even when the vest was on, the load on the stator was probably not much more than the stock headlight. I never blew a fuse except for a few years ago when I was building the bike. If you read the first post, you saw that the yellow wires checked good for resistance and continuity, but the voltage output was well less than 100 volts at 5,000 rpm. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 11/06/17 at 22:15:27 No you said in your first post you had continuity,and you tested them to ground,that doesn't tell resistance ,you have to test for ohms.If you did test for ohms what were the three figures you read?Are they a secret ?Why test the leads to ground ? Chances are rather small of a ground . |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/07/17 at 13:57:08 5C5F4A535F500A063E0 wrote:
Picky picky picky,... "No you said in your first post you had continuity,and you tested them to ground,that doesn't tell resistance ,you have to test for ohms." When Clymer's says 1 ohm, for all practical purposes, that is continuity. I tested them all,.. they were around 1 ohm. Continuity. When you do that test you are looking for number a LOT larger than 1 ohm to indicate a problem. 2 ohms, 1 ohm, nada ohms,... all good,.. all indicate continuity. "If you did test for ohms what were the three figures you read?Are they a secret ?" I did test for ohms. See the previous answers to your misconceptions. You are kidding about the secret, I assume. Maybe not, though,... in which case I don't know how to respond to a goofy statement like that. Why test the leads to ground ? Chances are rather small of a ground Because it is part of any stator test procedure. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 11/08/17 at 11:28:26 Why test for a ground? If you do the output test first,you've already confirmed AC on all three phases of the windings ,then it's impossible .If there had been a ground you would have one reading of 63 volts and two of 0 volts. You assured me that the load you place on the bike is not excessive, but there is another way the windings can be damaged ,time and the fact that they sit in contaminated motor oil 24-7-365 .the coating on the wire (varnish ?) could brake down, the 6 windings at the bottom being most likely to be attacked first, and the bike leaning on the side stand, most of it's life.The 1.5 volts put out by the meter in use may not be strong enough to jump between the coils in each winding and therefore show a normal resistance reading in ohms ,100 volts AC may be a different ball game.There are 18 total windings on the stater ,if six at the bottom become damaged (I assume two for each phase) then generation would be cut by 1/3 . 100 volts (perfect )X 2/3=65volts , your readings 63 volts, probably just a coincidence. Testing the stater to ground is not needed ,don't believe everything you see on you -tube.(what do you think backfeeding ac through the grounds on your bike would do to your battery and the entire electricial system? I'm guessing you'd have blown fuses and any light blubs that were on ,and the bike wouldn't be running)the fact that the bike is running is proof that there is no ground in your stater. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/17 at 13:50:23 DUDE! I Wish I could say all of that. I would understand so much more than I do. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Serowbot on 11/08/17 at 14:55:32 Why bikes keep their alternators in boiling oil, is beyond me... :-? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/17 at 09:53:20 Is there any, uhh, Alternative? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Dave on 11/09/17 at 12:08:38 4F5056514C4B7A4A7A42505C17250 wrote:
An oil seal on the outside of the crank bearing......all the 2 stroke bikes I had in the 70's had a seal on the left side and the magneto and points where in a dry environment. I wonder if the oil actually helps to keep the windings cooler than they would be without the oil? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/17 at 16:26:10 That's how Guzzi manages the dry clutch. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 11/09/17 at 17:19:55 There inside to make the motor as compact as possible ,oil isn't the greatest way to cool it ,but it is a good insulator , electrically.(much like the transformer on the pole feeding your house -oil filled)Your oil temps running between 270F -300F don't have much effect on the stater ,as any solder used in auto/mc wiring as a melting point in the 400-500F area. Frequent oil changes help rid the impurities in the oil an extend the life of the stater windings. Fully enclosing the alternator to protect it from the elements , without any cooling could be bad, much like extended use of your starter motor. Air cooling would be difficult , expensive and somewhat bulky .take heart , 90% of motorcycles made use the same system as our savage. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/18/17 at 19:18:25 Where would there be a stator replacement video for the Savage? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by batman on 11/18/17 at 19:37:00 Why would you need one? replacing the regulator/ rectifier? I don't see why it wasn't overloaded by the 2/3 load (63volts) you were putting out ,how could it have been damaged? |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/18/17 at 20:21:06 2122372E222D777B430 wrote:
I don't NEED the tutorial, I'd just like to see what someone went through replacing the stator. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by verslagen1 on 11/18/17 at 23:35:25 If you know the basics, there really not much to it. take off the peg, remove the kickstand, pull the bolts, pull the cable thru the frame (you probably need to remove the airbox) remove the cable clamp, and if you can (snicker, snicker) remove the cover. If it comes off easily then you might need a rotor. more bolts and snip snip and the stator falls to the floor. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/19/17 at 13:18:34 574453524D4046444F10210 wrote:
Do you have any tips on removing the cover? I've heard it is held in place VERY firmly by magnetics. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by verslagen1 on 11/19/17 at 13:30:29 427C776A676A67050 wrote:
There are 2 tabs on the cover that help. pry gentlely on 1 to break the seal on 1 side, then do the other. kinda think there was a place on the bottom too. once you got the seal broken, grab it best you can and pull like the sob you are. if not, get help. ;D |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/17 at 15:17:52 I haven't done it, but it looks like getting the timing plug out would create a grab spot. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Ruttly on 11/19/17 at 20:51:39 Harbor freight has small clamp type suction cups , clean dirt off cover , break it loose from gasket , apply suction clamp and give it a pull. Just pull it straight off. I think they might call them glass clamps. They are cheap. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 11/20/17 at 09:00:32 I'll be able to do this next weekend. Thanks for the tips, gents. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 01/12/18 at 17:52:44 I'm halfway through replacing the stator and the voltage regulator. The strapping tape trick worked well to pull the left case off the body of the motor. Based on comments here and on youtube videos, I was able to make sure the pins stayed in place, and keep both shims on the starter gear instead of one of them being on the idler. That shim fell on the floor when the case popped loose, so it is a good thing I knew to check for it upon reassemblement. It took a while to clean off the old gasket,.. about an hour to gently remove the remains of the gasket (with a very sharp chisel) without scratching the mating surface. Progress has been slow due to the ex-girlfriend's appendix exploding (weeks in the hospital, she nearly croaked), and due to way way way lower than normal temps around here. The workshop has been staying in the 30's and 40's of late. Hope to get it running within the next few days. I also hope the crap earth-x battery still works. Don't ever do business with those schysters. |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 01/21/18 at 14:03:11 Remember the comment I made about earthx batteries? Well, the one in my RYCA just blew up,.. like another one did in a lawn mower last year. It smoked and leaked blue stuff all over the bike and the floor. I wonder what that blue stuff is. I installed it in May of 2014. I guess 3.8 years is not too bad, but at $200 a pop, I'd hope it would last longer than that. The lawn mower battery lasted only 2 years. The company's attitude in situations like this is something like, "Our batteries are bulletproof, you must have done something wrong." |
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Title: Re: Stator may be hors de combat Post by Gyrobob on 02/22/18 at 15:22:24 Installed the new parts: stator, voltage regulator, and li-ion battery. All work well. Yay. Voltage while riding varies from 13.8 to 14.1. |
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