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Message started by SYONTS on 09/28/17 at 13:30:22

Title: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/28/17 at 13:30:22

So I have been having this issue and I am at a loss as to whether I can actually fix it or not. I'll start from the beginning.
On September 17th, I started my bike at work and headed home. When I got to an intersection, I noticed a loud clacking/knocking sound coming from my bike over my earplugs. When I got home, I took out my plugs and it was incredibly loud. So I stopped riding it.
I dropped and checked the oil - it was still within the sights and not low, and there was no noticeable metal in the oil. I attempted to check the valves, but I honestly couldn't figure out exactly how to get the feeler gauges in to read (And I couldn't get the timing cover off either) so I took it to a shop to have them adjust it. I want to note that while driving it to the shop, I noticed absolutely no change in power or response - it's just loud. The biggest thing I could see was that at least it was oily so the head was seemingly getting properly lubed. He said the exhaust valves were tight, intake were loose, he "set decompression lever cable freeplay", replaced the tappet cover o-rings, and "checked that the flywheel rotor is tight".
The sound is still happening, so I got a stethoscope and tried to listen to where the sound was coming from. I might be misunderstanding this, but I could hear the sound all the way up the cylinder. It was noticeably louder towards the bottom. When I had it in front of the starter motor, it seemed to be absolutely the loudest. But, at the same time the sound was clearer towards the top of the cylinder on the right hand side of the bike.
Here is a video of the sound, although since it was taken on my phone it is a little difficult to hear. https://youtu.be/a3AB8_z7too
The mechanic I had taken it to said "motor sounds like bottom end rod or crank bearing," and that it would be cheaper to just replace the engine. I am not positive that he is right though and any opinions would be amazingly well appreciated. I want to try my best to fix this.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by stewmills on 09/28/17 at 14:26:10

What is the year and mileage of your bike?

It is very likely the cam chain tensioner about to break loose and detonate your bottom end to shards. I'd stop running it and take a look at the cam chain adjuster and see if it's about to drop out. If so, you have just barely avoided a catastrophe.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/28/17 at 14:54:21

I forgot to mention that, thank you. It is a 2011, a little over 15,250 miles. I swapped the cam chain adjuster for a verslavy at around 12,000 miles. So it seems unlikely it is the adjuster. I also run Rotella T6 in it, changing oil between 2-3,000 miles with the filter being swapped every other time.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Ruttly on 09/28/17 at 15:14:03

Oh no something wants out , don't start it again , drain the oil into clean pan and see if there is metal in the oil !
Then check warranty and/or bank balance !

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/17 at 15:32:49

5D5741405A5D0E0 wrote:

I dropped and checked the oil - it was still within the sights and not low, and there was no noticeable metal in the oil. I attempted to check the valves, but I honestly couldn't figure out exactly how to get the feeler gauges in to read (And I couldn't get the timing cover off either) so I took it to a shop to have them adjust it. I want to note that while driving it to the shop, I noticed absolutely no change in power or response - it's just loud. The biggest thing I could see was that at least it was oily so the head was seemingly getting properly lubed. He said the exhaust valves were tight, intake were loose, he "set decompression lever cable freeplay", replaced the tappet cover o-rings, and "checked that the flywheel rotor is tight".
The mechanic I had taken it to said "motor sounds like bottom end rod or crank bearing," and that it would be cheaper to just replace the engine. I am not positive that he is right though and any opinions would be amazingly well appreciated. I want to try my best to fix this.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/28/17 at 16:32:41

6E7D6A6B74797F7D7629180 wrote:

[quote author=5D5741405A5D0E0 link=1506630622/0#0 date=1506630622]I dropped and checked the oil - it was still within the sights and not low, and there was no noticeable metal in the oil. I attempted to check the valves, but I honestly couldn't figure out exactly how to get the feeler gauges in to read (And I couldn't get the timing cover off either) so I took it to a shop to have them adjust it. I want to note that while driving it to the shop, I noticed absolutely no change in power or response - it's just loud. The biggest thing I could see was that at least it was oily so the head was seemingly getting properly lubed. He said the exhaust valves were tight, intake were loose, he "set decompression lever cable freeplay", replaced the tappet cover o-rings, and "checked that the flywheel rotor is tight".
The mechanic I had taken it to said "motor sounds like bottom end rod or crank bearing," and that it would be cheaper to just replace the engine. I am not positive that he is right though and any opinions would be amazingly well appreciated. I want to try my best to fix this.

Yes, I agree, any work you have a mechanic do to fix this, it will be cheaper to replace the engine.
He can not check the flywheel nut without removing the stator cover, rotor and starter clutch.
The bottom end on these things is nearly bullet proof.

I did buy a bike with a similar noise and found a burnt piston.
So my guess is it's piston related, either burnt piston or piston slap.

My brother said about the same thing about it as your mech.

You might be able to see a burnt piston by looking at it thru the sparkplug hole with a borescope.[/quote]

I wasn't planning on using a mechanic to fix this. If it is a burnt piston, what would it look like? I'm going to get a cheapo endoscope from Amazon and take a look when I can. If that ends up being the case, what would be the solution? Replace the piston? I think I could do that, but I'm not incredibly mechanically inclined. The most I've done was swap the tensioner and change a radiator on a car.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/17 at 19:34:24

606A7C7D6760330 wrote:

I wasn't planning on using a mechanic to fix this. If it is a burnt piston, what would it look like? I'm going to get a cheapo endoscope from Amazon and take a look when I can. If that ends up being the case, what would be the solution? Replace the piston? I think I could do that, but I'm not incredibly mechanically inclined. The most I've done was swap the tensioner and change a radiator on a car.

It might not look like anything or there'll be a piece of the piston missing.

A bore job and a new piston

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Christof13T on 09/28/17 at 21:54:25

These bikes are incredibly simple to wrench on.
You don't even really need any special tools to pull the motor and tear the top end down. There are even youtube videos of top end tear down of the ls650 motor. If you don't already have one... I strongly suggest picking up a Clymer manual.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/28/17 at 22:13:10

I do have a Clymer's manual, the pictures can just be a little vague sometimes.
I'll start tomorrow with a compression test and go forward from there. Although since it hasn't lost any power, I'm assuming that won't tell me very much. I'll also order a cheap little endoscope to check out my piston to the best I can.
So I suppose I have 3 main questions then. Am I able to do this kind of work with the engine in the frame? If not, do I need to drain the oil to remove it from the frame? And where might I buy a new piston? I'm having trouble finding any online to get a rough estimate on price of that is indeed the problem.
Thank you guys so much, this is a helpful starting point and I think I'm a little more confident moving forward.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/17 at 22:37:06

You'll need to pull the engine.
http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/detail/suzuki/12100-24b00-050/b1039128?m=147741&sch=232576
$118 make sure you get the right size as you might need an oversized piston to account for wear.
or contact lancer and get a big bore cylinder and piston set.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 09/29/17 at 03:54:32

My engine developed a horrible clank - it started as a tick when the bike had 400 miles on it and it became horrible by 1,000 miles on it. It was worse at idle, as the rpm increased it smoothed out. When idling around town folks a 1/4 block away would look to see what the horrible racket was.

It turned out to be a loose flywheel nut.....and would have been a relatively cheap and easy fix if I had known what to check. The flywheel nut is behind the rotor.......and it requires pulling the rotor and starter gear, and a deep 46mm socket to check it. I suspect your mechanic at the dealer only checked the bolt on the end of the crankshaft that can be checked by removing the threaded timing inspection cover - checking the flywheel nut requires removing the left engine side cover, removing the rotor (puller required), removing the starter gear, and then checking the tightness of the flywheel nut (46mm deep socket, torque wrench and flywheel holder required).

Before you take the engine out of the frame.....I would really suggest you get this nut checked properly. The noise if very much like you describe, it is evasive to pinpoint as the noise is dissipated through the crankshaft, into the bearings, then into the engine case.....it rattles in a way that cannot be isolated by listening outside the engine.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Christof13T on 09/29/17 at 05:57:37

It is not absolutely necessary to drain the oil before pulling the motor.
I drained the oil from mine AFTER I pulled it by taking the left side engine cover off and laying the engine on its side on top of a 5 gallon bucket to drain(Make sure you secure the clutch pin from falling into your drain bucket by putting it in a safe place). Cracking it open before draining the oil will likely lead to a slippery mess. The motor is heavy... but not unmanageable.

I did not notice any loss of power when my piston and cylinder tried to become one with each other... just the slappy knock. My compression was at 87psi and there was no noticeable loss of power!

Sometimes you just can't see what failed until you tear into it.
The picture is of my piston with only 4,150 miles on the bike.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/29/17 at 13:39:21

I will run the compression test and look inside the cylinder when the camera comes in, either Monday or Tuesday. Looking at Clymers, it says that compression should be between 145-203psi, so is that how you knew you were in trouble?
I remember reading your flywheel issue before and you're right, it could be that I suppose. Considering the rarity, it would be just my luck that it happened to me too. Don't you need a special tool to remove the rotor and starter gear? Where would I get such a tool and what would it be called? And how deep of a socket are you talking? That also leads back to the issue I was having where I could not remove the timing cover. Maybe I should just buy a cheap crowbar that fits the slot, I don't know. ;D

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 09/29/17 at 13:53:53

Here is a photo of the tools you need. I can rent mine to you with a deposit - the problem is they are heavy and shipping is a bit pricey.

The 46mm deep socket that I have provides 2-3/4" of depth - I don't know if you need that much room.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2ljktg1.jpg

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 09/29/17 at 19:28:09

0B303D2A3B372C2A3139342B580 wrote:

What would you think shipping would run to AZ then, if you don't mind guessing?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 09/30/17 at 04:22:35

The Medium sized USPS Flat Rate box is $17.15 - I don't know if they can be shipped at a lower cost.....because of the weight.

The rental rate is $20, with shipping cost both ways.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/03/17 at 15:20:11

Alright so I ran a compression test and tried my best to see into the cylinder. I didn't see much, although the sides could be scored, I am not sure. I took some pictures, and recorded 2 videos in an attempt to get the best images. Can anyone see anything in particular?
https://youtu.be/2ImIII4rN30
https://youtu.be/ArwfUhM6l3g
For the compression test, it came out to 120 while cold, maybe a little more. So it seems that I have compression at least. The spark plug looked decent as well. Would you still lean towards possible piston damage or would you lean towards the flywheel before that?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/03/17 at 15:22:10

Here is the spark plug, just in case.
https://i.imgur.com/BNlzOQF.jpg

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/06/17 at 20:45:53

Obligatory 10th post so I can PM Dave.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/06/17 at 22:02:39

Are yew a Syontist or do you just like Syonts?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/06/17 at 22:04:51

203F393E23241525152D3F33784A0 wrote:

Are yew a Syontist or do you just like Syonts?

First initial, last name actually

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/06/17 at 22:34:34

Never would have guessed that.
What part of the world would that be a common name?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/06/17 at 22:40:19

243B3D3A2720112111293B377C4E0 wrote:

Never would have guessed that.
What part of the world would that be a common name?

The last name is actually German apparently. Or rather, a misspelling of German. It isn't really common anywhere though haha.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/17 at 06:43:40

My name's Parker, so I figure a Long, LONG time ago some dude was parking wagons out in front of some place he couldn't afford to go into..

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/08/17 at 18:39:48

233C3A3D20271626162E3C307B490 wrote:

My name's Parker, so I figure a Long, LONG time ago some dude was parking wagons out in front of some place he couldn't afford to go into..

Haha I like to imagine things like that sometimes, doesn't really work for my name though.
And I have a video that more clearly shows the sound. I can't actually hear this, the video caught it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IEmX96Xx3A&feature=share
Any and all suggestions on where to start would be appreciated. I'm dedicated to fixing this one way or another, I would just like a point in the right direction!

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/08/17 at 19:17:33

I dunno what is making that racket, but it sounds ugly.
Have you used a rod against different places against the bone in front of your ear?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 10/09/17 at 11:11:27

I can't tell much about where the noise is coming from through my computer speakers - it is the kind of thing that requires you to be with the engine to diagnose.

I guess you need to take something apart and start looking. You can take the left and right side engine covers off and inspect the flywheel and can chain tensioner..........or maybe take off the head cover and see what the cam and rockers look like. Anything beyond that and you need to pull the engine out of the frame.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/17 at 12:56:10

Have you used a rod against different places against the bone in front of your ear?

I grabbed a stethoscope the wife was throwing out, popped the end off and stuck a rod in.
It can be done without a stethoscope, and you can get a mechanics stethoscope.

I'd pull the decorative stuff off the head and see what y you can hear down the cylinder. Try to finnd the loudest spot. Feel for a bump when it clacks.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's the crank nut.
Having a bad time with connection.. sry.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/19/17 at 10:58:13

63585542535F444259515C43300 wrote:

Alright, I made an assumption that I would end up pulling the engine and decided to just start with that. I figured it is good experience, and now I can bring it to a mechanic if I get stuck and save considerably on labor at least. I pulled the head cover off and took a look around, could you tell me if you see anything?
https://imgur.com/a/8tH1I
The only thing that jumped out at me was the last picture there, which is the cause of my oil leak apparently. I didn't even know that there was supposed to be a nut there, I just assumed it was the tail end of a bolt from the inside of the engine.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 10/19/17 at 12:13:19

There isn't any oil in the well under the cam.....as you tipped and moved the engine around getting it out of the bike.

The cam/rockers/bearings all look fine - there were not the source of any knocking noise.

The black marks are likely just paint or marker from a factory worker showing the parts was completed at their work station.

The missing nut does hold the front of the head tight, and oil can weep around the head gasket layers and ooze out this spot. It is a slow weep and does not affect the oil system. Get the right nut - it is a flanged nut with a smooth bottom - get the factory part. Clean up the stud and put a little sealant on the threads and bottom of the nut when you install it.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/19/17 at 12:18:39

6A515C4B5A564D4B5058554A390 wrote:

That's good to know. I was planning on buying the correct nut, no worries. Then the next step would be to remove the side covers and check both sides for signs of damage or looseness, right? In doing so, I can prepare to remove the head as well, since after the side covers the cylinder would likely be the next step.
I think I have this under control then. I'll likely buy every single gasket, regardless whether the old is damaged, and just replace them all. This should be fun!

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Ruttly on 10/19/17 at 15:30:48

Building engines is nothing but fun. Getting to know how all your engine , clutch & trans all work is a good thing. I think it's my favorite part of a build , next to riding it !

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/17 at 16:46:11

Get it apart
Evaluate it
Decide what to do
Buy parts
Don't buy stuff you don't need

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/19/17 at 16:48:27

2D3234332E2918281820323E75470 wrote:

Get it apart
Evaluate it
Decide what to do
Buy parts
Don't buy stuff you don't need

Absolutely. I've bought nothing yet. Wasn't planning to until I figured out what I needed to fix ;)

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/20/17 at 20:04:23

Is there some sort of trick you getting the left side cover off? I have all of the bolts off, but it just won't budge.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Ruttly on 10/20/17 at 20:12:46

The stator magnets are stronger than you are ! ;D ;D ;D

Keep trying , it has to come straight off.
No prying , that's cheating !

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/17 at 20:55:39

Remove the access plug.
Then you can grab.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/21/17 at 21:26:46

5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:

Remove the access plug.
Then you can grab.

Is it normally threaded? Even using a gasket scraper, the tool bent before it even loosened when I turned counter clockwise.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Ruttly on 10/21/17 at 21:49:17

Find a washer that fits the slot snugly & put a vise grip on the washer.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/21/17 at 21:56:38

Put some bolts in the case.
Fit a piece of hard metal to the slot.
Cardboard makes getting the radius close a lot easier.
Don't tighten it as tight as they did.
Antisieze is your friend.

After a couple of hours of failure I grabbed a worn out mower blade and cut it , fit it, it's a tool on the wall.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 10/22/17 at 00:06:11

4C4650514B4C1F0 wrote:

[quote author=5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 link=1506630622/30#36 date=1508558139]Remove the access plug.
Then you can grab.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/23/17 at 14:55:41

72617677686563616A35040 wrote:

[quote author=4C4650514B4C1F0 link=1506630622/30#37 date=1508646406][quote author=5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 link=1506630622/30#36 date=1508558139]Remove the access plug.
Then you can grab.

Is it normally threaded? Even using a gasket scraper, the tool bent before it even loosened when I turned counter clockwise. [/quote]
yes it is. if you're in a bind to find something that works, if you happen to have an old brake pad, that'll fit in the slot, and use a crescent wrench to turn as close to the case as you can. if you don't have a brake pad, the plate that holds down the tank fits, but it will twist a little. hit the plug a few times with a hammer to break loose any corrosion that maybe locking the two together.
don't hit the slot with a screwdriver you'll just punch a hole in it.[/quote]
I finally got both the cover and the full side cover off, so thank you! The gasket was what was holding it together so tightly, it looks like the original gasket from when the bike was made in 2011 - it crumbled. Looking around, I didn't see anything in particular that could be causing the sound issues.
Obviously I can't get to the flywheel yet, but I think I will check the cylinder first. Just in case, I'll attach a picture of the inside for those with better eyes than I.
https://imgur.com/gallery/3OHEM

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/23/17 at 17:16:07

Where the starter comes through looks odd.

But I have never been there.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 10/23/17 at 17:39:07

756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:

Where the starter comes through looks odd.

But I have never been there.

Looks OK to me.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/23/17 at 20:54:07

I tried,

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/24/17 at 13:17:17

I wanted to try something.... would I be able to hear a similar sound while rotating the engine manually via the timing port? I tried rotating it counter-clockwise and it was pretty much silent, save for the compression of the engine. This was with both side covers and the head cover off. If I remember, this was not the case when I attempted to do the valve inspection at home, where even pushing the bike made a noticeable sound.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/17 at 13:46:10

With the head cover off, you have no rockers, so no valves opening or closing... compression, vacuum, compression, vacuum.

If it's piston slap, doing it by hand may not be fast enough to get a slap.
Take out sparky and use the starter.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/24/17 at 13:48:20

060C1A1B0106550 wrote:

Rather I take that back. It seems there is a light grinding sound from the center of the cylinder area when the bike is approaching TDC on either stroke.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/24/17 at 14:23:33

3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:

Just to be sure, you're saying I should do this with the engine out of the frame, no oil and the covers off or...?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/17 at 14:36:32

1D1701001A1D4E0 wrote:

[quote author=3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 link=1506630622/45#46 date=1508877970]With the head cover off, you have no rockers, so no valves opening or closing... compression, vacuum, compression, vacuum.

If it's piston slap, doing it by hand may not be fast enough to get a slap.
Take out sparky and use the starter.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/25/17 at 01:00:02

796A7D7C636E686A613E0F0 wrote:

[quote author=1D1701001A1D4E0 link=1506630622/45#48 date=1508880213][quote author=3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 link=1506630622/45#46 date=1508877970]With the head cover off, you have no rockers, so no valves opening or closing... compression, vacuum, compression, vacuum.

If it's piston slap, doing it by hand may not be fast enough to get a slap.
Take out sparky and use the starter.

Just to be sure, you're saying I should do this with the engine out of the frame, no oil and the covers off or...?
[/quote]
It's not going to start, a few turns should be ok.
Any more than that, a squirt of oil on every bearing and in the cylinder should be fine.
don't forget to tie the kangaroo down mate![/quote]
Alright, I will be doing this in the AM. I'm assuming I should leave the stator cover on so the starter gear doesn't slide out though. Will update in the morning, though I doubt I will be able to hear anything over the sound of the starter :o

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/25/17 at 14:55:15

23302726393432303B64550 wrote:

Just to be sure, you're saying I should do this with the engine out of the frame, no oil and the covers off or...?
[/quote]
It's not going to start, a few turns should be ok.
Any more than that, a squirt of oil on every bearing and in the cylinder should be fine.
don't forget to tie the kangaroo down mate![/quote]

So it's looking more and more like the last owner was in the head at some point and didn't entirely know what they were doing... but more importantly, the other outside bolt that secures the head to the cylinder (intake side) is stripped and I cannot for the life of me get it loose. The area is far too tight to get a grip, while my 12mm wrench just slips. Any suggestions on how to get it out?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 10/25/17 at 15:17:39

Do you have a 6 point box end wrench.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/25/17 at 15:22:40

417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:

Do you have a 6 point box end wrench.

I have a set ranging from 8-18mm 12 point, but I don't have any 6 point. Would the 6 point allow a stronger grip? I'm guessing I would get one in 12mm, since that is the size of the bolt.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 10/26/17 at 03:55:16

Yep, the 6 point grabs more of the hex on the nut.

See if you can buy or borrow one.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by JLC on 10/26/17 at 05:36:31

You are unlikely to round the corners off a nut using a six point set. One big advantage over the 12 points.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by LANCER on 10/26/17 at 06:42:34

5C5A55160 wrote:

You are unlikely to round the corners off a nut using a six point set. One big advantage over the 12 points.

Yep, the 6 point wrenches hold a bolt/nut much more strongly than a 12 point; I think it is 2-3 times more.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/17 at 08:39:25

I've used pieces of feeler gauges to get open end wrenches to work.
Haven't been forced to try it on the other end yet.
But yeah, a six point grabs a lot more meat.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/26/17 at 12:51:00

It took forever, but even after using a 6 point wrench, then a hex wrench and a whole lot of PB penetrating oil, I finally had to cut the nut off. I'll probably need to replace the bolt that goes into there, which luckily it can be, I just need to figure out how it gets removed. But anyways, I got the head off, and took a bunch of pictures.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LSdhv

There is a weird lining of burned material around the top of the cylinder, but I am not sure if it is supposed to be there. Similarly, there was a lot of carbon around the underside of the valves. And I never noticed the difference in color between the intake and exhaust. But unless any of that indicates an issue, I think I need to dig into the crankcase from the side going forward.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/17 at 14:16:12

Was there enough carbon buildup to cause preignition?
Were you lugging it?
Was that clacking on acceleration?
Dave, what are you thinking?
Anyone?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by verslagen1 on 10/26/17 at 14:29:53

Looked normal to me, you'll get a lot more if the rings are bad.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 10/27/17 at 10:25:24

5E4D5A5B44494F4D4619280 wrote:

Looked normal to me, you'll get a lot more if the rings are bad.

So just to be sure, none of those pictures have anything that jumps out as abnormal? Then I suppose I'll PM Dave to rent those tools haha.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/03/17 at 14:22:22

https://imgur.com/gallery/zUE45
A closer view of the cylinder and the rotor. Can't quite check the flywheel nut because of the silly woodruff key. Ill work more on getting that out tonite before or after work.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/05/17 at 15:50:57

And I think this is the conclusion of this excitement for me.

https://imgur.com/gallery/qwqG3

Got the woodruff key out and took a look and what do you know, but the nut that secures the flywheel to the shaft was definitely not 100ft-lbs tight. I was able to spin it off with 1 finger. I posted the pictures in case there was any damage to the parts, but I didn't see anything. I will be ordering the gaskets/nuts/bolts that I need to get this thing back together and purring. Does anyone have a recommendation on how to remove that damaged headbolt?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by TheNaughtyLemur on 11/05/17 at 17:04:14

Did you end up renting the tools for the fly wheel? Or did you just buy some? I need to check this out on my bike.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/07/17 at 12:01:24

7D414C67485C4E415D50654C445C5B290 wrote:

Did you end up renting the tools for the fly wheel? Or did you just buy some? I need to check this out on my bike.

I rented them from Dave! I'm going to get some permanent thread locker to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 11/07/17 at 13:19:07

This is the 3rd engine on this forum that had a knock for a loose flywheel nut.

Mine was the 1st and it started making a ticking noise at 400 miles, I tore is down at 1,000 miles as the noise was horrendous.

The 2nd one was listed as a "parts bike" with an engine knock....he didn't discover the loose flywheel nut until he tore the engine apart to sell in pieces.

Clean the oil off the threads on the shaft and the nut, install the curved washer with the inside edge bowing out, apply permanent thread locker to the nut and torque it down to the recommended torque value....then put the rest of the engine back together. Then go riding and don't worry about it anymore....I have 9,000 miles since I did mine, and I took it apart to put a lighter flywheel on a few months ago....and the nut was still tight and holding fine.

This was the first time I rented out the tools - as I suspected the cheapest the tools can be mailed is the Medium USPS Flat Rate box.....and it is currently $ 13.60 each way! Trying to mail it in a smaller more compact box resulted in a cost of more than $20 each way!

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by sandmanred on 11/09/17 at 02:52:12

Could be 4 on forum.

Mine would occasionally make a similar noise when I accelerated hard in upper gears. Sometimes but not always. If I keep rpms and hard acceleration down I don't hear it.

I need to dig into the engine this winter anyways to deal with the timing chain take up so will check this out at the same time.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 11/09/17 at 03:48:58

43515E545D515E425554300 wrote:

Could be 4 on forum.

Mine would occasionally make a similar noise when I accelerated hard in upper gears. Sometimes but not always.

That does not sound like a loose flywheel to me. The loose flywheel sound is loudest at low rpm (idle) where the power pulses are the most erratic......and the sound diminishes as the rpm builds. When cruising along down the highway at 4,000 rpm the sound pretty much goes away. The loose flywheel sound is not affected by hard acceleration - it is most severe at low rpm.

The sound you are describing sounds more like pre-ignition or detonation. It occurs most often at full throttle and can be a sign of poor fuel, a lean fuel mixture, excessive carbon deposits in the cylinder....or using full throttle at low rpm (lugging the engine).

You might try running some Chevron Techron though the bike to reduce the amount of carbon in the cylinder. You can buy it at most places that sell auto products - including Big Box stores.
http://www.techron.com/

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by sandmanred on 11/09/17 at 14:37:43

310A0710010D16100B030E11620 wrote:

[quote author=43515E545D515E425554300 link=1506630622/60#67 date=1510224732]Could be 4 on forum.

Mine would occasionally make a similar noise when I accelerated hard in upper gears. Sometimes but not always.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by TheNaughtyLemur on 11/10/17 at 14:26:45

606A7C7D6760330 wrote:

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/10/17 at 14:34:28

714D406B4450424D515C6940485057250 wrote:

[quote author=606A7C7D6760330 link=1506630622/60#63 date=1509925857]And I think this is the conclusion of this excitement for me.

https://imgur.com/gallery/qwqG3

Got the woodruff key out and took a look and what do you know, but the nut that secures the flywheel to the shaft was definitely not 100ft-lbs tight. I was able to spin it off with 1 finger. I posted the pictures in case there was any damage to the parts, but I didn't see anything. I will be ordering the gaskets/nuts/bolts that I need to get this thing back together and purring. Does anyone have a recommendation on how to remove that damaged headbolt?

How in the hell did you get the woodruff key out? Ive tried tapping on it with a screwdriver/hammer, grabbing it with pliers, and heating it and letting it cool multiple times and it just will not come out.[/quote]

A pair of cutting pliers and PB blaster were the only things that worked for me. I'll need to lightly file my key, but they didn't do much damage at all. Just grab and do small pulls away from the crankshaft. Avoid using the shaft as leverage.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/12/17 at 10:26:24

https://imgur.com/gallery/MwQEn

Alright so this is probably the last post I'll put in this thread until it is running all nice and pretty again, but I need to be sure. I took the cylinder off in preparation of installing the new piston from Lancer and I got a little concerned. The piston itself seems fine, although from what I'm reading in the manual I'm not positive. It slides back and forth on the pin, but it doesn't slide off at least.

The top of the crankshaft halves seem to be heavily worn. It looks like they were rubbing up against something, but for the life of me I can't see or imagine what. The picture in the manual has a similar set of marks on the two halves, but I'm not positive if it's supposed to be like that and all of the pictures I find online are too low quality to confirm. Does it look fine or is that excessive and should be investigated? It just looks so concerning.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Ruttly on 11/12/17 at 12:09:40

Maybe the counter balancer has caused the damaged , look at that.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 11/12/17 at 12:53:59

The crankshaft does have all kinds of weird colors and marks on it....they come that way. One half of the crank is always much darker than the other side. If you are in doubt.....go to eBay and look at the photos of the cranks that are for sale.

The piston pin is held in by very small spring clips that are made of thin wire (lightness is a benefit in the piston). You have to get a small screwdriver in there to get them out.....and you can rotate them so the wire is over the small groove. These thingys really like to fly.....so do your best to block the trajectory!

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/12/17 at 13:08:00

5D666B7C6D617A7C676F627D0E0 wrote:

The crankshaft does have all kinds of weird colors and marks on it....they come that way. If you are in doubt.....go to eBay and look at the photos of the cranks that are for sale.

See I was doing that but the pictures were all the wrong angle or just really poor quality. I think I'll believe it's fine, as I never have found any metal shavings in my oil. Thank you for the reassurance! I'm putting the rotor back on and I'll ship everything back to you in a day or two. Is there any special trick to getting the rotor back on straight? And is there a torque that I should aim for on the nut that holds the rotor in place? I can't find anything for it.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 11/12/17 at 17:01:44

Your clymer manual doesn't list a value for the rotor bolt?

Learn to use the Table of Contents in the Technical Section on this forum....it has all kinds of useful stuff:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 11/12/17 at 17:07:29

08333E2938342F29323A37285B0 wrote:

Doh, it's closer to I apparently don't know what to call it. I was looking at the book and that table but my mind didn't click on it being the rotor bolt hahaha

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 12/31/17 at 21:54:04

Everything is back together and it runs smooth. The knocking is completely gone, so yay! But the downfall is that I messed up somewhere. I took it around the block to get gas and air up the tires, and there was a massive oil leak from the head/cover. I think I messed up the seal when I was applying the permatex ultra grey. Is there a diagram or picture which shows where exactly I was supposed to be applying sealant? I'm thinking I missed somewhere, or I snapped a bolt...... any possible ideas? If I can't figure it out, I might need to take it to a mechanic, which I want to avoid.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/17 at 22:31:42

That's a real close proximity to the actual recommended sealer, but I would be uncomfortable with it. I have some of that stuff and I have had the real thing and they are different. If you got it on very thin and carefully worked the bolts down and just kept making passes until the sealer stopped giving, then it might be okay, but I don't know how it sets up over time. A chunk that hardens and falls into the oil could be a problem I guess..

You don't need a mechanic.
You survived a big job. It's just details now.
You sure you got the sealing washers and bolts right?
Where is the leak?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/01/18 at 01:41:22

405F595E43447545754D5F53182A0 wrote:

I will take the tank off tomorrow evening after work to try to get a closer look. It isn't a light leak, the battery box was coated and the cylinder had a light coating from it too. It is all over the right side, and seems to be coming from either above or at the seam for the head cover. I'll get a more detailed idea tomorrow, and maybe some pictures if I see anything that jumps out.

Thank you, you're right. The cylinder and crankshaft were definitely bigger undertakings. I think I'm musty a little frustrated, but improvement is improvement.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/01/18 at 04:40:21

The thickness of the sealer determines the gap between the cam and cover. Thick sealer means a sloppy fit, and that means less oil pressure in the places that aren't really well served already.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/01/18 at 23:11:16

Alright, last night I dried up most of the oil that I could see and tonight I took it apart. Up on the head, only one area had oil on it and what do you know, it's the bolt (130MM) I thought I maybe had snapped. I marked it below. I took it out and measured it, and unless 0.5mm broke off, it is still complete. So I am thinking that the threads inside the casing are stripped. In fact, I'm thinking the PO did so because in hindsight, there seemed to be the remnants of a helicoil on the bolt when i pulled it out, I just didn't know what that was at the time. Is there a fix that doesn't involve redoing those threads? I am pretty sure I can't do that myself haha. I read somewhere on here that I can maybe use a longer bolt, or some kind of sealant? Considering it's an oil passage, I want to err on the side of caution.

Everything else is relatively oil free, although I might start it up for 3 seconds in the AM with that bolt back in place as best I can to see if I see any other oil flying around, since I cleaned up a bit yesterday. Unless ya'll think that's just a little too dangerous? :-?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 01/02/18 at 02:33:26

Do you have the sealing washer on that bolt?

If that bolt is stripped.....you are screwed. There is no way to do a proper repair without taking everything apart again. You might try a longer bolt - however the existing bolt goes very close to the bottom of the hole, and the threads in the aluminum stop a bit short of the bottom of the hole.....there really isn't much hope of getting a better bite with a longer bolt (and this is a major reliability issue.....as an improper repair could break at any time and leave you stranded).

I got the long helicoil and parts to fix it.....but you will have to take it apart. You may be able to leave the cylinder on and do the work without removing the cylinder - however it will be hard to keep the metal shavings out of the oil passage.....maybe shove a Q-Tip or similar method to block the hole. I prefer to have the cylinder removed so I can use the drill press to keep the hole and tap straight - if you do it by hand and get it crooked the long bolt may not go into the hole properly - there is 4" of cylinder head on top of the hole that will prevent the screw from going into the helicoil properly if you install it crooked.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448209911

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/02/18 at 09:05:46

675C5146575B40465D555847340 wrote:

Well that is not the reply I was hoping to wake up to, I'll admit. The sealing washer is certainly on there, and the bolt is able to turn indefinitely without actually torquing. So lemme make sure I got this straight.

To absolutely properly repair this, I would need to remove and disassemble the engine again. This would involve replacing all the gaskets again, most likely, as well as taking the cylinder to a machinist to place the helicoil/repair the threads since I do not have any tools that are able to do that, especially not reliably. So I am looking at $100ish or more aren't I? Not to mention time.

Considering it seems to be the only actual leak, is there no way to secure it from above using something from the chrome headcovers to keep the bolt securely pushed in and some gasket sealer to form a tighter seal? Maybe I am being too hopeful here, but I want to make sure I at least voice the only possible option I can think of.

I was working on this around work last time, if I do have to I think I will take some time off work and just get it done in a 3 day weekend or something. I seriously miss riding.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/02/18 at 12:21:35

You didn't Feel it strip?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/02/18 at 12:27:50

0B141215080F3E0E3E06141853610 wrote:

You didn't Feel it strip?

Like I said, when I put it in originally, it felt a little loose so I took it out again and saw these silver bits on it. I didn't think they were stripped since it didn't even get fully into the threads, there was nearly 0.25"-0.5" of the bolt left out of the head. I thought it was the permatex that got on the threads, but now I know it was the threads from below. Considering it looked like threads on the outside, I am assuming it was an old helicoil anyways, which I think explains why I can't get any grip on it now at all.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/02/18 at 12:36:59

It's a real lousy feeling when you're tightening one up and it stops getting tighter. Bummer, dude.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/02/18 at 14:46:24

2D3234332E2918281820323E75470 wrote:

It's a real lousy feeling when you're tightening one up and it stops getting tighter. Bummer, dude.

It's incredibly depressing to be honest. So I just need to know if my idea is even possible. If I applied a gasket maker to the bolt and then forced it down with the chrome shield, would that A. Solve the issue and B. Be removable?

If not, I just need to know what I need to re-order. I am guessing the head gasket is not reusable at this point (Goodbye $35), probably the same for the cylinder gasket ($8-$10). I would buy the 5 sealing washers ($10) for sure, they're too cheap not to at this point. I would probably also buy a tube of Threebond 1211($25-$30), just to ensure that everything is right this time. And I would likely buy a new M6X130 bolt ($2), just to be safe. And maybe buy one of the helicoils (And other parts? I'm a little unsure on what you mean) from Dave?

Then I just take everything apart again (Sigh), remove the cylinder and bring it to someone with a press to get the coil installed. Total parts = $80, plus the labor of getting a helicoil added in, which shouldn't take someone with a drill press more than 20 minutes. Then just put everything back together and hopefully never open up the top end ever again :P.

Does that sound about right?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by Dave on 01/03/18 at 05:34:02

The Heli Coil is not pressed in. First the existing threads are drilled out with a 1/4" diameter drill. Then a special tap is used to cut new threads in the aluminum, then a tool is used to thread the insert in place. The insert is supposed to lock itself into the hole - I use a very small amount of threadlocker just to be sure.

Since the engine has run so little - the gaskets may not be stuck to anything and you might get away with using them again if they are not damaged in any way. If the rubber sealing washers were new.....I would certainly use them again.

If you find somebody local that can install the heli-coil - I can sell you one of the 18mm long inserts to use.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/04/18 at 12:55:09

19222F3829253E38232B26394A0 wrote:

Alright well I have a guy I've been using for machining around here. I just need to bring the coil and cylinder to him. When I was torquing the head cover on, the 125 bolt had resistance as well, so I'm going to be safe instead of sorry. How much would you want for 2 of the long coils?

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/04/18 at 13:16:48

Your technique needs refined.
Bolts don't strip on their own.
Torque in stages. Instead of the torque wrench, Start with a ratchet, firm up every bolt, run the pattern, back and forth, pulling it together square and even. Once you start feeling it coming tight, switch to the torqu
e wrench.Don't shoot for the high end of the torque range.
Feel of the bolt. It will change how it feels when the
Clamping Force gets up around where it needs to be.
It's easier to fix a leak
Than wrecked threads.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by SYONTS on 01/04/18 at 13:27:10

2E3137302D2A1B2B1B23313D76440 wrote:

Your technique needs refined.
Bolts don't strip on their own.
Torque in stages. Start with a ratchet, firm up every bolt, run the pattern, back and forth, pulling it together square and even. Don't shoot for the high end of the torque range.
Feel of the bolt. It will change how it feels when the
Clamping Force gets up around where it needs to be.
It's easier to fix a leak
Than wrecked threads.

I don't think I was clear, it was stiff at finger tightness with oiled threads to the point that it stuck out almost an inch. All of the other bolts went in smoothly and tightened correctly in a pattern accords the head, these 2 are the only ones that had issues. I managed ti tighten 125 to the lower end of the torque range, but the tightness at the beginning has me worried so I would rather reinforce it now then get in there and figure out I needed to do it anyway, ya know? At worst, I spent a few dollars for piece of mind.
I mean I know I didn't do a perfect job, but I feel like overall it went smoothly save for those 2 bolts.

Title: Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/04/18 at 13:40:49

A bolt showing those signs is screaming
Something isn't right.
Nothing gets tightened with a wrench until every bolt is in , finger tight.
Something is misaligned, wrong bolt, garbage in a hole, damaged threads, something is wrong and needs figured out before a wrench goes into it.