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Message started by zipidachimp on 08/28/17 at 11:44:11

Title: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by zipidachimp on 08/28/17 at 11:44:11

Does it make any difference engine-wise doing a daylong ride in 80-90 degree weather versus the same ride in 60-70 or 70-80 weather. Reason I ask is because on 2 days last week I sensed a wave of heat rising up that i hadn't felt before, mainly in slow moving traffic. Cooler weather is at least 2 weeks off. 8-)

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/28/17 at 11:48:10

Not enough to worry about. Slow moving in 90+ for an extended period might cause me to change the oil upon my return home.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 08/28/17 at 11:51:04

It sure can...the two times my head temperature got to 300 degrees were on 95 degree days - once in downtown Pidgeon Forge on Main Street, the other one was a 1st gear climb up a steep gravel road (little air flow to the engine in those situations).

Air cooled bikes don't have a thermostat - so the operating temperature is directly related to the air flow....and the ambient temperature. They run cooler in cool weather - hotter in hot weather.

And Gary is probably correct as most air cooled bikes were designed to work in extreme climates - however I wouldn't recommend riding the bike at sustained high speed on the interstate during a heat wave! 8-)

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by SALB on 08/28/17 at 12:42:28

An old air cooled VW mechanic friend of mine once told me that you should run an air cooled engine as rich as possible without sooty plugs. The leaner the mix, the higher combustion temps.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by zipidachimp on 08/28/17 at 12:53:24

guess I'll wait! :(

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by verslagen1 on 08/28/17 at 13:37:52

And whatever you do don't get stuck for a long wait at a stop light.
unless of course you need the hair removed from your legs.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Serowbot on 08/28/17 at 16:17:02

My Savage handles it better than my 883 Sporster... it really don't like the heat.
A couple of lights on a 100'+ day, and you're sitting on a stovetop... :-?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/28/17 at 16:55:37

Odessa Texas gets Hot. I knew a guy who had a VW. He wasn't gentle with it. It held up the year I knew him. I moved away.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by batman on 08/28/17 at 20:52:57

VW's had a fan ,Harleys run both cylinders on one piston rod which means the cylinders are directly in line and the rear cylinder usually runs hotter, unlike the Yamaha Virago's which ran two ,and had the cylinders offset to have better cooling.Dino oil is good to 350 degrees , syn. to 500 either should do the job even on the hottest day.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Kris01 on 08/29/17 at 17:53:40

...and you might want to run a slightly thicker oil for those really hot days!

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by batman on 08/29/17 at 18:54:24

wrong Kris! thicker oil has already been test by Vercy and shown to make the motor run hotter .It doesn't flow as readily through the motor thus it tends to carry away less heat . oil in an air cooled engine has two jobs, to lubricate and act as a coolent.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Kris01 on 08/30/17 at 16:54:54

585B4E575B540E023A0 wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been known to happen before) but didn't Versy test a few different weights and found that beyond a certain weight the temp got hotter? In other words, we're safe up to a certain weight?

I might be dreaming this up.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by sgreiss on 09/01/17 at 08:22:11

What's the best oil to run for overall life of the engine and good performance?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/01/17 at 08:25:23

455144535F4545360 wrote:

What's the best oil to run for overall life of the engine and good performance?

You must be new here....... :-?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1366651397

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Eegore on 09/01/17 at 09:07:53

Did we ever get an answer regarding if we still need ZDDP in the latest Rotella mixture?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/01/17 at 09:33:53

Going off memory here, but I seem to remember a rep from Shell responding that its greater than 1,000 mmp (down from 1,250) - which put's on the low end of the acceptable scale.

I've got T-5 semi-synth in three of my bikes right now with no clutch issues.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/01/17 at 12:14:35

6A4A48405D4A2F0 wrote:

Did we ever get an answer regarding if we still need ZDDP in the latest Rotella mixture?

Yes...although they don't seem to be able to test for ZDDP directly, as the Zinc and Phosphorous are always listed as separate components.

1,203 ppm Zinc, 1080 ppm Phosphorus

http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Sosacj21 on 09/01/17 at 16:14:43

Kind of glad I read this. So I'll be riding about 100 miles home from San Diego to LA area here in California. Weather is gonna be about 90-95 is that to hot to be riding that long with this bike? I really don't have a choice because I gotta get home but just wondering

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/01/17 at 16:35:20

High speeds use oil. 100 miles, you'll be okay. Check it before you go, and when you get there. Having a small container of oil is not a bad plan.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by batman on 09/01/17 at 20:27:06

Semi-synth is a waste of money ,it's no better than dino. It just costs more. Versy's test was with 20w-50 which made the motor run hotter.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by SALB on 09/02/17 at 10:22:23

2C2F3A232F207A764E0 wrote:

Semi-synth is a waste of money ,it's no better than dino. It just costs more. Versy's test was with 20w-50 which made the motor run hotter.

The Semi Synthetic meets higher standards than regular oil, but not as high as the full synthetic. The real problem is that Rotella T5 DOES NOT carry an MA designation. It was designed for use in light duty diesels such as Mercedes, Volkswagon, ect. It may contain friction modifiers.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/02/17 at 11:56:35

I didn't get the full synth T-6 because it only comes in 5w-40. That's too light for our bikes. In the future I'll just stick to the T-4 Dino.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/02/17 at 18:06:42

If 15/40 is okay,isn't 5/40?
It's only thin when it's cold.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by eau de sauvage on 09/02/17 at 22:15:09

If Often wondered about the benefits of turning it off during and extended wait at say a bridge, or even on a very hot day if you're going to be stationary for a short period like two minutes at lights is it worth turning the engine off during those two minutes if it's a very hot day?

5C4F5859464B4D4F441B2A0 wrote:

And whatever you do don't get stuck for a long wait at a stop light.
unless of course you need the hair removed from your legs.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by JLC on 09/03/17 at 06:00:02

Gary wrote: "I didn't get the full synth T-6 because it only comes in 5w-40". Here in Colorado I get the full synthetic T6 in 15W-40 at WalMart.

I got stuck at road works twice riding the Savage. I hit the kill switch, not because I was worried that the engine would overheat (it does not get that hot where and when I ride), but because I thought it might be worth saving a bit of gas, considering the small capacity of our fuel tank!

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/03/17 at 06:11:02

Now I could be wrong on this, but it would appear that T6 is now only available in 5w-40. If you want 15w-40 you'll have to get T4 or T5.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by eau de sauvage on 09/03/17 at 06:43:55

7F6066617C7B4A7A4A72606C27150 wrote:

High speeds use oil.

I found that out last week, normally I use about a couple of ounces of oil in my GS per 6000K and I get 23km/litre, had a bit of a mad midnight ride on the expressway and spent about 90mins traveling at 150km/hour, petrol consumption dropped to 16km/litre and I used about 6 ounces of oil!

I recently inquired about the zinc level at Penrite...

Marketing uses the term "Full zinc plus" referring to an adding together of zinc ppm and boron ppm. From a science background I prefer to say zinc = **** ppm and the boron is a bonus, stated separately, if at all.

Both of these bikes [GS and S40] really want oil at 10W-** so I'll stick with that. In Brisbane's heat there's an advantage in getting that right hand number up, not the left (Winter) one.
How about the semisynthetic SAE 10W-50?

I ended up using the Penrite HPR Diesel 10 10W40 because it was on special and half the price of the m/c oils, I've got enough for both bike for another year now. Here's the specs looks like 1220 for the zinc http://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pis_pdfs/HPR%20DIESEL%2010%20NOVEMBER%202016.pdf

THIS is definitely worth a read talking about Zinc... http://www.penriteoil.com.au/community/posts/hughesy-and-039-s-tech-tip-zinc-levels-in-engine-oil

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by verslagen1 on 09/03/17 at 09:09:49

Here's a pretty descent info page on what the viscosity numbers mean.
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

Go to the page to see the full chart, I've reduced it so it's readable here.

SAE Viscosity Chart (High Temp)
100° C (210° F)

20 5.6
30 9.3
40 12.5
50 16.3
60 21.9

Winter or "W" Grades SAE Viscosity

Low Temp (-15 to -40°C) Viscosity cP

0W 3.8
5W 3.8
10W 4.1
15W 5.6
20W 5.6
25W 9.3

Quote:

When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210° F or 100° C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210° (100° C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210° F (100° C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

I hope y'all never see -15

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by JLC on 09/03/17 at 14:33:06

Gary,

Thanks for the information. Useful to know they are discontinuing the T6 15W-40.

I just rode to the WalMart in Falcon, CO. They still have Rotella T6 15W-40 available in Quarts at $6.97, and 2.5 gallon jugs at $41.36. That is in stock, so if anyone within riding distance of the Falcon, CO store wants some, now is the time to get it!

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/17 at 17:21:28

Tractor Supply, yesterday, 2.5 gallon, $32.50 ish.
it's T4.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by batman on 09/04/17 at 17:32:43

5w -40 Rotella T-6 is not to light an oil for use in your bike 5w is tested to still flow at -25 degrees, 10w at -20 ,15w at-15 degrees .I don't feel that many of us will be starting our motors at these cold temps, but the fact that a 5w oil will be thinner at cold start up means that the motor runs "dry" for a shorter time before oil starts flowing through the oil passages ,that lessens wear and allows the oil to warm faster.If this oil is good enough for diesel tractors ,bulldozers and the like ,in cold weather ,why would you think it's to "thin" for our use.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by cygnet on 09/04/17 at 19:56:23

I agree the thinner the better in the cold, and 40wt is all we need in hotter temps sounds like 5-40 is a perfect oil for us, that's what I use.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/05/17 at 05:14:16

747E7A707B72767F212723130 wrote:

I didn't get the full synth T-6 because it only comes in 5w-40. That's too light for our bikes. In the future I'll just stick to the T-4 Dino.

The "40" rating is done at 210 degrees - so at engine operating temperatures, the 5w-40 and 15W-40 are both operating as "40 weight" oils....there shouldn't be any difference.

At "winter" temperatures - the 5W rated oil does not cause as much drag as the 15W rated oil. This could be a concern if you leave your bike outside when it is 10 degrees - but for us warm weather riders it isn't of any concern. The weird part is the testing doesn't actually give you a cold temperature where the testing is done...so I don't know if that is at 10 degrees....or -10 degrees!

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

Here is what Suzuki recommends for the Savage.....and it really doesn't matter to me if the 'W" number is 15, or 10....or 5 as I will never be riding at temperatures where that has any affect. The numbers on the chart tell me that Suzuki has not included any synthetic oils - as the synthetic oils generally have a much wider range between the numbers (5W-40, 5W-50). (Mobil1 appears to limit the ratings on their synthetic oil to the numbers listed in the owners manuals (0W-20, 5W-30, 10W-40, etc) to avoid confusion about what oils can be used in your engine.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/05/17 at 05:38:25

Alright, I'm convinced....T6 it is then.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/05/17 at 13:46:54

I was not trying to talk you into a synthetic.......I am perfectly happy with the Rotella 15W-40 oil, and I really doubt that I will every wear an engine out while using it. Unless I start riding more than 3 or 4 thousand miles a year - I will never get the kind of mileage it takes to wear out a motorcycle or car in what is left of my lifetime.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/17 at 15:34:37

Ah din Git T6. Ah got T4.
Izzat coo, er do ah needs to add sumpn'?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by DieselBob on 09/06/17 at 16:18:36

JOG, I'll confess that the only foreign language I took was the requisite 2 years of French. However, I did read the book "How to Speak Texan". But, after 40 years the only phrase I retained was "tar arn". Which roughly translates in English to something like "tire iron." Do East Texans speak the same language as the rest of Texas?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 16:28:31

Hayull Naw

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/07/17 at 03:26:18

Dijid ya eet yet?

Naw.....didju?

Dijwan 2?

Awwright!

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 06:54:02

I've met people I literally couldn't understand. The worst was a college student from Chicago. Regional dialects and colloquialisms can sure be confusing. The English as a second language crowd must be uncomfortable as heck.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Fast 650 on 09/07/17 at 11:43:16

605B5641505C47415A525F40330 wrote:

Dijid ya eet yet?

Naw.....didju?

Dijwan 2?

Awwright!

That is easy. Now, rural Ky near the TN line is where it starts getting interesting. The word pronounced like "flair" could mean the small blooming plants around your house, or the white powdery substance mixed with milk and eggs to make dough, or it could mean those little sticks that you light and put down behind your vehicle when it breaks down on the road. And all words that end with a vowel are pronounced as if they ended with a "y". Like tobacky for instance.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by batman on 09/09/17 at 22:26:07

Dems peepulls mite be dain bramaged.

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by LANCER on 09/10/17 at 04:17:53

797A6F767A752F231B0 wrote:

Dems peepulls mite be dain bramaged.

Wahhaaa ?

Title: Re: Air-cooled engine question?
Post by Dave on 09/12/17 at 03:57:10

272D29232821252C727470400 wrote:

Alright, I'm convinced....T6 it is then.

I spent the weekend with MMRanch.....a long time T6 user. He reported that after years of using it - he started to get clutch slippage - Oldfeller reported the same issue earlier this year.

It may be that the new formula for T6 has too much Moly in it for wet clutch use.....I am going to start a separate thread to discuss this issue, and make some "forum opinion" on keeping the T6 on the recommended oil list.