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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Another new toy, Another new forum... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1502808851 Message started by Christof13T on 08/15/17 at 07:54:11 |
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Title: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/15/17 at 07:54:11 So a deal on a pretty clean 06 ls650 with 3700 or so miles on the clock fell in my lap. It had been purchased 2nd or 3rd hand about a year ago, tinkered with just enough to get it running... then ridden about 30 miles and parked. It sat in the weather untouched until I drained the varnish out of the fuel bowl and tank. I gave it some fresh fuel, set the petcock to prime till fuel ran out of the airbox. It fired up, to my amazement; immediately. I was able to ride it home (about 10 miles) with no problems per se` at cruising speeds, but it wanted to die trying to idle. A little bit about me... I'm a very seasoned mechanic, machinist, welder, blacksmith, and most recently taken up my hand as a beekeeper. I have pretty much all the tools and equipment in my garage to repair, rebuild, modify, or fabricate anything the mad scientist living behind my eyelids needs to set the robot apocalypse in motion. I have plenty of experience with most assortments and configurations of internal combustion contraptions. The softest spot in my charcoal heart is for diesel, but I enjoy the intricacies of these small air cooled jobbers almost as much. My forte` is diagnostic and forensic mechanics. I do so enjoy identifying and solving the root cause of a mechanical failure. Back to the bike. It has for certain been laid down on both sides in its life. Minor dings and scrapes, busted foot pegs. The turn signal posts all the way around need replacements. Clear coat on the fenders is pretty badly oxidized. Chrome is not in too bad of shape. Some light oxidation on the aluminum all the way around. The good... Everything seems to work ok. It pulls like a freight train. Fairly decent mileage so far at 42mpg. Absolute top speed of 84mph so I cant get too stupid on it. Only 3700 miles on it when I rode it home. So far I have pulled the carb and cleaned the jets... That cured my idle issues. I have 4150 miles on the clock now and getting pretty comfortable with it. On Saturday, I went for about a 100 mile ride and issues arose. I was pushing it a little hard against about a 10mph wind for about 30 miles. I started to hear what sounded like a shroud rattling that soon progressed to correlate with rolling on throttle. First thought was exhaust leak at head due to overheat so I backed off of it and let the needle fall to 65mpg. Immediately started hearing double exhaust report. Echoing exhaust pops from the tailpipe, and the head. Shortly after it lost power and started to die like it was running out of fuel. Switched it to reserve on a whim and it slowly picked back up. When it reached what felt like full strength about 20 seconds later I switched it back to "on" and gently cruised the last 3 miles or so into the next town. Stopped at a gas pump and topped off and let it cool down for a few. It developed a tick on the left side. The exhaust wierdness seems to have subsided but the tick persists. Oil looks good and feels unbroken. From what I have already read.... Im looking at a problem tensioner, a loose flywheel nut, or valve lash adjustment... That about the stone skinny of it? It still pulls like a freight train, No smoke, No abnormal backfiring... Exhaust is pretty much solid blue to the shroud, then a blue patch after the shroud on the tailpipe. I'll be happy to fill in any blanks I may have overlooked. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 08/15/17 at 08:46:49 What jets were you looking at when you cleaned them ? Meaning, what were the sizes ? Was the white plastic spacer still on the needle ? What is the setting on the pilot screw ? I would first look at the diaphragm and such in the petcock, sounds like it may be malfunctioning. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by bobert_FSO on 08/15/17 at 09:29:31 Your under-load issue sounds like the vacuum petcock. I had the same problem. It ran around town OK, but on a day out with friends, trying to maintain 65 mph against a 20 mph headwind, I kept running out of gas. If I switched to PRI, it would pick right back up. Switching back to RUN would cause it to run out of gas again in a mile or two. It was a combination of a low-vacuum operating situation (maintaining near WOT under a heavy load) and an old, to-stiff petcock. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/15/17 at 10:29:09 565B54595F48080D3A0 wrote:
I did not even check the sizes... just cleaned the gunk out of the orifices and slapped it all back together. I think there was some kind of spacer thing in the primary. Have not yet read about any mods pertaining to it. That a delete kinda situation? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 08/15/17 at 14:52:28 79524853494E555C0B096E3A0 wrote:
I did not even check the sizes... just cleaned the gunk out of the orifices and slapped it all back together. I think there was some kind of spacer thing in the primary. Have not yet read about any mods pertaining to it. That a delete kinda situation? [/quote] Define "delete kinda situation". We need to know what you are working with before being able to advise you. Open up your carb and find out what's in there. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Steve H on 08/15/17 at 15:15:32 The spacer is not a complete delete situation. Look in the tech section under white spacer mod or search it on here. It is generally replaced by a couple washers equalling about 2/3 the ful height of the spacer. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Tocsik on 08/15/17 at 15:55:31 What year is the bike? Most likely looking at a petcock issue. Read about swapping it out with a genuine Yamaha Raptor. It's a direct fit, non-vacuum petcock that cures all kinds of woes. Doubtful the tensioner is getting out there with so few miles. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/16/17 at 09:23:07 The build date is 02/06. The tick/knock is almost like piston slap... On the ride to the convenience store a bit ago I heard what sounded like a chain dragging behind the case cover. This is a definite mechanical knock that easily overpowers the other rattles on the bike. It sounds like it is coming from too low to be from the valve train. kinda leaning toward rod bearing failure by how it sounds. Still hopeful tho... Gonna do some light reading before I crack it open and have a look see. I'll have another look in the carb and see what I can see. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/17 at 10:30:12 Although it's pretty young to be the cam chain, you don't know the back history so I'd say it's worth a look. Chain dragging, knocking low down are real red flags. If it's cam chain, the knocking will occur just to the rear of the oil filter. Put your hand there and you'll feel it. Piston slap you won't be able to locate it. Mine was due to a burnt piston. If you have an eyeball on a stick, pull sparky and check the edge of the piston. Mine was near the far intake. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/16/17 at 19:10:39 I do have an electric eyeball but it is too dang big to fit... will have to borrow my buddy's with the 5 or 6mm doo dad. Yeah... pretty certain it is down low. I don't have a suzuki dealer local that I am aware of for sourcing parts... so once I crack it open it will just have to stay out of service until I can source parts or gaskets and whatnot online. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/16/17 at 19:26:04 verslagen1, Looking at the modified tensioner you offer... it looks like the housing is slotted on both sides, the plunger is drilled, and a roll pin pressed in... If mine has not catastrophically failed... is there any reason I couldnt slap it on my mill and replicate your method to secure it? What is that about an 1/8th " slot? (Haven't pulled it apart yet so no frame of size reference lol) |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/17 at 20:04:04 3/16" slot 1/8" pin only thru 1 wall if you drive the pin in too far it will lock up the spring |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/16/17 at 22:25:12 Gotcha. This tick/knock really has me scratching my head. It's source seems to move with my ear lol. I did not feel any significant vibration associated with the tick/knock at the case cover behind the oil filter cover. I previously did not hear the noise around the head... but listening to it earlier today I just can't be sure. It's not quite to that tell tell sign of a counterweight kissing the bottom of the piston from rod journal being chewed but darn if it doesn't sound like that double tick of slack being taken up at tdc and bdc and the lightest kiss of the piston to the head. I still cant fathom that much damage at the mileage unless someone ran it with no oil at some point? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/17 at 22:44:57 the counter balancer will hit the bottom of the cylinder, not the piston. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/17/17 at 06:06:41 23302726393432303B64550 wrote:
So the rod length ensures clearance between counterweight and piston... Counterweight should not contact cylinder unless mains have let loose and allowed the crank to walk around, correct? After more reading I have the sneaking suspicion it's the wrist pin. Still hoping it is something ... else... lol I'm gonna see if I can get a decent video of it posted. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/17/17 at 06:22:21 Ok I got a video uploaded... now to see if I can remember how to tag it here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRq-vGLHGJs |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/17 at 07:09:18 A compression test will tell you if it's the piston or not, but that's my guess. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/17/17 at 14:46:06 Compression test yielded a result of 87psi... *insert sad face here* |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/17 at 14:58:07 Rings might be stuck I'd dump diesel in the hole. Agitate the crank Just a few degrees back and forth Check compression Do it again Change oil before you run it |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by antmanbee on 08/17/17 at 15:21:25 You have to deactivate the starting compression release before testing. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/17 at 15:35:22 The compression release is only active for 1 rev. Do you do a compression test for 1 rev? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 06:54:53 So more head scratching... I looked at the oil again on a whim and sure enough it was not even visible in the sight glass until I leaned the bike over to the right. Filled it back up and ran it for a few minutes "just to see" lol and it made no change. Watching the sight glass while it was idling I noticed that it had very very little oil trickling across the sight glass. So here are the next barrage of questions... Where the heck did all the oil go? There is no sign of any significant leak.. no sign that it was blown out the tailpipe... no extra soot from it being burnt... There is a noticeable oil weep at the right side of the head but no liquid oil leaks anywhere... Do these engines normally consume darn near a full quart of oil over about 200 miles? So... Could whatever caused the oil loss to pull the oil level down so low the pump couldn't pick up... loss of prime.. then *poof* all of a sudden running as if it had no oil in the crankcase? That would dang sure cause some heat soak in the upper end that could easily bind rings to the piston... When I changed the oil the day I brought it home... the stuff that came out was as black as the oil that comes out of my 7.3 powerstroke at oil change time... No metal shavings, flecks, specks or dust that i could see in it. Seemed pretty dark even if it had been in the engine from the factory. But surely I was not the first to perform an oil change on it eh? I'll give the rings a wiggle with diesel in the jug and see if it helps. I have not been able to get together with my buddy with the inspection camera as of yet... hopefully today though. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 07:49:04 Pulled the chrome covers off the head to get a better idea about the weepy leak. Looks to be coming from around the right side cam cap... Is that indicative of the infamous oil plug leak? Also noticed the bottom locking nut at the decompression solenoid cable on the head was completely loose. It rattled its way down completely past the threads and was just rattling there. Does not look like the top nut has moved. There is a very small amount of oil seep at the head cover/head seal on the left side, but no signs that it has been dumping on the head. Just a slight grime layer down in there... mostly dust. A cheap pair of blunt nose electrical pliers worked fabulously for removing the little inspection cover hiding the bolt needed to wiggle the crank. Rocking the crank one direction is almost completely silent... the other induces gear noise... is it engaging the starter and that's what I'm hearing? Still waiting on mamma to get home from the sk8 park so I can pull some diesel out of my truck lol. Being down to 1 vehicle sucks sometimes. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by ohiomoto on 08/19/17 at 08:21:08 I don't immediately get oil in my sight glass when I check in the mornings. I have lean the bike to the right until I get some oil and then back to level to check it. You won't see much oil in the glass when it's running because the oil is being distributed through the motor and transmission. Sounds like you may have a plug leak and you would be surprised how much oil you can lose with those. Still you'll see it sprayed all over the battery and side covers if it's bad. (Unless you ride really slow all the time.) Ultimately, I think you are in for a rebuild of some sort here and you won't know what it is exactly until you tear it down. If you are lucky, it will be in the top end. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 09:56:15 Attempted to wiggle the rings free with diesel in the jug... Absolutely zero effect of change in compression. Got disgusted that I'm gonna have to tear down a basically brand new motor and walked away from it for a bit. After it sat a good half hour... I tried it again for grins and to my amazement it climbed up to 92-94psi! Gonna let it sit some more and keep fiddling with it and keep my fingers crossed. I did go ahead and pull the oil filter and sloshed it around in a jar of gas. It was not all that nasty, but I did see extremely fine glitter in the slush once I was done. could be new, could be from break in... Have no idea... Worst case scenario... Anyone got a link handy for a big bore kit? If I end up having to replace hard parts... might as well upgrade eh? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 10:03:39 4443424446445F442B0 wrote:
Even though I saw a teensy bit of progress with the ring wiggle experiment, I'm leaning toward the same conclusion. I tend to keep the revs up most of the time, no indications of oil sprayed on battery or side cover areas... (both side covers are actually missing...) |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/17 at 11:26:05 Rings stuck, little oil in piston/cylinder zone, piston rubbing? Banging the crank a few degrees back and forth might get it. go ahead and pull the oil filter and sloshed it around in a jar of gas. It was not all that nasty, but I did see extremely fine glitter in the slush once I was done. could be new, could be from break in... Have no idea.. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 11:34:42 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
I went through about 10 rounds of pouring in diesel... rocking the crank back and forth... evacuating the jug... comp test.. It actually started to come up and hit 94psi at one point but very soon dropped back down to 87psi the next go around. I'm going to leak down test it to see if I can identify intake, exhaust, or crankcase venting... might narrow it down a bit. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/17 at 12:00:42 have you tried transmission fluid? couple of squirts is all you need. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/19/17 at 12:03:39 776473726D6066646F30010 wrote:
Naw... Just the diesel so far. Got plenty of fresh atf sitting there so I suppose I could give it a shot. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by batman on 08/19/17 at 23:57:08 If your placing diesel or oil in the cylinder an compression is not going higher it may not be the rings but you may have damaged /burnt valves or valves set to the wrong clearance (to tight)that are not fully closing . P.S. It's always good to check the front drive pulley that should be torqued to 94 ft/lbs as this will make noise(hitting the guard ) and can damage the main shaft and pulley.(nightmare & big bucks) |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by ohiomoto on 08/20/17 at 05:20:09 I was talking about the seeping oil getting sprayed back along the side covers and battery box when riding at high speeds. It doesn't actually spray out of the leaking head plug. Sorry for the confusion. Still, I'm thinking this thing is toast and no amount of cleaning is fixing it. There is an old saying, "You can wish in one hand and $hit in the other. See which one fills up first." |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 08/20/17 at 05:44:23 So I have attempted to wiggle potentially stuck rings loose with diesel, atf, 40w motor oil... Absolutely no consistent change in compression. I started to try to get somewhat critical of the motions involved in this ring wiggle procedure to maybe identify some endplay in the rotating assembly. Back and forth 1/4 to 1/2 * with my t-handle on the crank yields noises from the front of the case like slack it being taken up with a light tap when it runs out. Not ruling anything out yet. I did discover... without the aid of a leakdown test per se`... That there is significant blow by venting the crankcase. I happened to have my flip flopped foot near enough to the inspection port that I felt a gust of "wind" coming from it while cranking on the gauge. On further investigation, there is a suspect amount of air moving without question. The lack of change in compression, coupled with the forced volume of air venting the crankcase tells me I will probably be replacing a burnt piston. I may also find heat soaked exhaust valves that got sticky lips... Obviously won't be sure until I crack it open. I did quite a bit of reading about going oversize and pondered weather I really want to go down that rabbit hole, or just go back to as close to stock as I can get. I have decided that if there is indeed cylinder damage that warrants the jug getting cut... I'm going as big as I can. If the jug is ok as it is... it goes back together as is. I'll go ahead and port/polish here and there to open her up but that's about as far as I'm going with it. I will start a new post for the teardown/rebuild if anyone is interested. Is there a trick to posting images on this forum? I got youtube links figured out but notice a lot of folks seem to have issues with broken pic links. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/17 at 09:34:43 Stock piston and a lumpy cam is a good option. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Jmpell on 08/25/17 at 05:56:11 I'd be interested in a teardown/build thread. Not sure about the photos |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 08/25/17 at 12:08:05 Don't worry about air whistling out of the open timing inspection cap when you move the piston up and down. The crankcase volume changes drastically in a single - the volume of air moving on top of the piston is equivalent to 500 cc with each stroke....and the volume under the piston changes the same amount! And you also shouldn't worry too much about a little bit of tapping in the front of the engine when you wiggle the crank both ways - it is likely just the play in the balance shaft gears. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/12/17 at 08:21:23 It has been sitting still pretty much since my last post. I have been beyond busy playing catch up and recovery with my bees post Hurricane Harvey paying us a visit. Ended up with another bike falling in my lap and have been putting any free time and energy into it... 2003 Yamaha yzf600r that a buddy bought brand spankin new. Immaculate condition for its age and 99,590 miles on the clock lol. Only needs minor tlc. So I should not worry about the rotational play/clunk ... gotcha Still need to borrow my partner's inspection camera and have a look down in the jug. So it's still possible that I just have a valve issue since I let the crank case displacement change fool me lol... *facepalm* There was still no change in compression the last time I checked it... but that was a couple weeks before harvey hit. When I have not been working on bee stuff or the new bike, I have been getting chainsaws and generators up and running for people all over the dang county. Things seem to be starting to settle back down though and I got the itch to fix stuff and go ride! Got my Clymer's ordererd but it's stuck in hurricane shipping traffic jam stoopidness lol. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by batman on 09/12/17 at 09:04:35 It's always a good idea to check the drive pulley to make sure it's tight,(torque to 98 ft/lbs)if loose it will eat the splines on the output shaft, and pulley,and scrape on the ridges on the back of the cover.If the header is that blue you must be running very lean ,jetting for your elevation should keep the motor from running hot. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/12/17 at 09:55:59 I'm 100ft or so above sea level most of the time. I pulled the left cover to have a peek and I found the "play" I was hearing in the intermediate starter gear engagement. What sort of puller does the stator wheel like to get at the flywheel nut? I have a three way and various jaw type sets in 2 and 3 jaw. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/15/17 at 08:36:24 Nevermind about the flywheel puller question... My clymer's came in yesterday. I see the fancy special puller lol. If I don't have too much bee related work today I may go ahead and pull the motor and take a look at the head. Still hoping for a valve issue or something quick and easy lol. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/15/17 at 16:33:29 Get it on compression and pull the plug and oil fill cap. Air in the cylinder. Listen to intake Exhaust And if it's blowing out the oil hole, piston is perforated. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/16/17 at 04:14:14 I can't remember reading of any wrist pin failures on this forum - they seem to hold up well.....as does the bottom end. Most failures on this bike are related to the camshaft/rockers when you use a modern oil with low ZDDP, cam bearings when the idle is set too low, or piston/cylinder scoring when you run the bike out of oil. What oil are you using? You could have damaged your camshaft or rockers with a low ZDDP oil. Check the valve clearance, and if it proves to require more than just a small tweaking - there is likely damage to the cam and rockers. My bike started to develope a tick, and it soon turned into a horrible knocking noise. It was impossible to isolate the noise - but it turned out to be a loose flywheel nut and was a relatively easy fix....unfortunately I tore the entire engine apart before I found the loose nut. Also check for a ratting speedo or headlight bezel - they can make a lot of noise and sound like it is engine related rattling when your helmet is on. Definitely replace/repair the petcock. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/17/17 at 07:37:08 I have had some more time to thingy around with it the past couple days... Just have not reported back here about it lol. I have everything loose from the motor at this point but the drive belt. I checked the area of the flywheel, nothing seems loose. I do not yet have the proper puller to remove the rotor though... I am trying to refrain from ordering one.. because the moment I do... I will need it and be waiting on it. I don't want to need it lol. I'm still hoping for a tight valve adjustment or some carbon keeping a valve from seating. It is way more dirtier in the exhaust port than it should be for 4k miles. The cam chain tensioner does not appear to be damaged, and is working to keep tension on the chain. It looks to have marks on the piston from those moments where it pushed out and clicked into the next ratchet tooth. Past the face of the housing there are about 2 1/2 "marks" visible. If I tug on the piston to put more pressure on the chain It jussst almost clicks into the next tooth. From what I can see thus far of the cam... There is no apparent scoring or other visible damage. The valve stems look fine, no obvious bends or cracking and they look to be intact lol. I have not yet pulled the head cover, I understand I need to take a clearance measurement between the rocker pad and valve stem before I pull it... Is that correct (assuming It would not be possible with the cover removed as it takes the exhaust rocker with it?) Anyway... I'm kind of stuck there until I can locate one of my dang feeler gauge sets lol. Reloading room... engine room, machine room... who knows lol. Oil... I wanna say I put rotella t in it because I had it on the shelf... The stuff that came out felt like it was 50% or more of that lucas crank case sludge crap, and it was as black as the oil that comes out of my 7.3 powerstroke diesel after 7k miles. It stank like differential oil... Just not quite as bad... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/17/17 at 10:47:37 You can't check the flywheel nut with the starter gear in place....so the only way to check is to pull the rotor. You do need a feeler gauge to set the valve clearance - but if you remove the inspection covers and have the piston at TDC.......you should be able to confirm the rockers have a small amount of wiggle - you should be able to rock them back and forth a tiny amount. If one of them wiggles a lot, that is a good indication the cam or rocker are wearing. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/18/17 at 09:17:29 So I found my feeler gauge set I most trust in the reloading room... Exhaust valve on the clutch side of the engine was at a perfect .003". Exhaust valve on the other side was a tight .002"... Guess what happened when I adjusted the valve... Checked compression with jumper cables on a battery and just jumped the terminals on the solenoid... 120psi within the first few revolutions... Should i just put it back together and *facepalm* or keep going and pull the head cover to be sure? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/17 at 16:00:09 You couldn't get it running. It didn't have compression. Now, you discovered the valves were too tight, and solved that, and now you have compression. Should you pull the motor and take it apart? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/18/17 at 17:28:53 I discovered 1 valve under clearance. .. The bike does run... it just maxed out at 87psi on compression test before the valve adjustment. This all started as stated early in the thread that it lost power on a sustained 80mph ride, acted like it ran out of fuel and made a bunch of popping backfire like noise from around the exhaust area... Pulled in to the fuel station and it was kinda ticking...almost knocking. 120 psi is more compression than it had...but still at the bottom of the spectrum. For a bike with 4k miles on it, that is concerning. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/17 at 17:40:51 What's the best direction? Test it and see what you have Or Tear into it? I would want to see how it goes before I went further. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/19/17 at 12:12:04 I put it back together... Fired it up. It still runs... *surprise surprise*... It's still knocking (sounds like loose metal bits on a rotating assembly taking up slack) It is now puffing oily smoke out of the tailpipe. No more suggestions required... I'm ripping it apart. (as soon as I can get the proper puller for the rotor lol) Don't you hate it when people post bad advice on your thread, and knowing better... you follow it out of frustration (or hope) anyway? To recap... Symptoms now list as follows: A knock/slap in the low front area of crank case. Oil consumption Low compression Stator side exhaust valve was a little tight... corrected to bring compression up to 120#. Cam chain and tensioner appear to have no signs of damage or significant wear. Cam lobes look perfect. I still keep forgetting to grab my buddy's inspection camera to peek in the jug... I will try to remember it this evening. Since the valve adjustment did cause compression to increase... I'm assuming the valves are ok. At this point, experience tells me I have a hole in the piston, burnt rings... or a scored jug. The knock/slap is likely either the piston flopping in the jug... or the flywheel nut is in fact loose. How common is it for the flywheel nut to come loose under hard compression braking? I tend to compression brake much more aggressively than I probably should. Like to the point of barking the rear tire... So just curious. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/19/17 at 12:51:04 I don't think riding style can loosen the flywheel nut...most likely it is just assembly error. The nut was working loose on mine with only 400 miles on the odometer. Rolling off the throttle and letting the engine slow the bike down doesn't hurt a thing - but I don't downshift in a way chirps the back tire or causes the engine to jump to high rpm when the clutch is let out...just a few gentle downshifts as I slow down. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by ohiomoto on 09/20/17 at 06:06:11 18332932282F343D6A680F5B0 wrote:
I don't think all of the advise was bad. You got this nugget over a month ago... 5156575153514A513E0 wrote:
And you knew it all along, but I completely understand the frustration and hope part. Don't beat yourself (or anyone else) up over it. :) |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/17 at 06:39:11 The members have some tools available and engine support designs exist. You've done the preliminaries and learned as much as possible. Now, do you tear into it and see what it's gonna take or just go hunting for a used engine? I'd hafta see what is wrong and figure out the cost of repair. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/21/17 at 04:29:30 Does anyone know if the oil drain plug bolt trick works on the ls650 rotor? ohiomoto, true... Just really didn't want it all to unfold this way lol. I was trying to hold out until I could check the valve clearances in hopes of finding something simple out of whack. justin_o_guy2, The reference to bad advice was just a friendly prod... I appreciate the bid of hope as I really wanted it to just run happy after the valve adjustment. If nothing else... I'm getting pretty familiar with all my bike's naughty bits ;D lol. I did minimal reassembly to test run it after the valve adjustment. All the vanity covers are still off, right side foot peg and brake control still hanging by the cables... once I pull the exhaust, tank and carb again it will be pretty well stripped back down to where I started. Still need to rig up a strap or something to suspend the front end so I can remove the left side foot peg and shifter assembly and then out comes the heart. Guess I better get all the broken chainsaw junk off my workbench and get to it... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/21/17 at 04:35:25 7D564C574D4A51580F0D6A3E0 wrote:
I don't know what trick you are referring to? :-? The crank/rotor connection is a taper with a key......you need a puller to get it off. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/21/17 at 05:14:50 Something similar to this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfylmIU_4ew |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/21/17 at 05:58:12 The LS650 flywheel isn't threaded on the inside.....the threads are on the outside. I have the tools that are needed,and I do rent them out. The rental rate is $20, there is a $100 deposit....and you pay shipping both ways. The tools are unfortunately too big to fit in a small flat rate box, and they are heavy - it may be the medium flat rate box is the cheapest at $13.60 each way. If you don't need the large deep socket and holder for the flywheel - the puller will fit in a smaller box that may be cheaper to ship....but it is still a bit heavy. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1504271719 |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/21/17 at 06:56:07 Christof13T wrote on Today at 12:29:30: Does anyone know if the oil drain plug bolt trick works on the ls650 rotor? Yes. Removing the plug and running the engine until it stops will keep you from needing to worry about pulling the rotor. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/21/17 at 07:01:36 I offer a similar deposit and rental rate on tools from my boxes lol... Thanks though, I'll just get my own or make one next time I visit a buddy with a beefy lathe. I want to, but can't justify the coin for a 50mmx1.5 tap to build one here when a new puller from fleabay is 40$ shipped... I will be focusing on getting to know my yzf600r a little better until i can get the right tools to take care of my Savage. It is missing both the plastic side covers... so I was kind of thinking of freshening up the paint while its all apart and playing with some sheet metal to one-off some covers... Will see how I feel... Still kinda disgusted with it even though I probably caused it by pushing it too hard. 80mph should not be too much or a 650 to handle... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/21/17 at 08:05:18 Wow......I didn't realize you could buy the puller so cheaply. When I bought mine is was over $60, and the socket was around $18...and I made the flywheel holder. China and eBay are sure making it easy to get tools cheaply! Here is a puller for $28.47 shipped...the feedback says they work fine! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pit-Posse-PP3271-Flywheel-Rotor-Magneto-Puller-Tool-50mmX1-5-RH-Female-Suzuki-/112357122158?epid=690910566&hash=item1a2901a06e:g:sO0AAOSwXYtY4cOW&vxp=mtr |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/22/17 at 17:45:09 So I yanked the motor out... heavy but easily manageable. Finding the right dang hex socket to get the rear brackets off took me longer than most of the wrench work... Valve cover off... nothing of major significance. no scoring or significant wear on the cam lobes or bearing surfaces. cam gear looks fine. Removed cam... Ride surfaces are slightly (may still be factory tool marks) scored but nothing out of tolerance. Head removed... Rusty colored exhaust valves. oily wet black intake valves. no burns or bends or cracks visible. Piston top looked fine, cylinder looked fine... until... rotated the crank to drop the piston and thar` she was... The cylinder is scored all the way around. When I pulled the jug off the block I immediately found the source of the "knock/slap"... The piston has been rocking back and forth in the jug like a see saw slapping the crap out of itself. Fortunately I opted to tear it down before something catastrophic let loose. a fresh jug and piston and I think it will be good as new. so... Affordable sources for new jugs and pistons anybody? And what is a good place to host images to post on here... I wanna share this gruesome &h17. I can not see any signs of damage whatsoever in the bottom end. No excessive free or end play. Rod looks fine. I think I will hold out from splitting the case. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/22/17 at 20:25:27 Bore it and go oversized piston? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/22/17 at 21:37:00 Yes Sir! It's getting a 97mm wiseco. Actually talking with a buddy with a beefy cnc mill right now about boring it. He is more than comfortable mating a piston to a jug. I do have a question about the tolerance (cylinder to piston clearance). The book lists .0020-.0024" but does not specify weather this is one side, or across the whole o.d. making it .0010-.0012" per side... Can anyone clarify? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/23/17 at 03:19:44 It would be wise to check with Wiseco or Wossner, whoever is the manufacturer of the piston, for the tolerances they say is appropriate for th bore process. Knowing how that tolerance is measured is critical. You don't want a piston that is so tight that it seizes as soon as you fire it up, or flop around with excess space and self distrust. If your friend is familiar with machining cylinders then he should KNOW. Want to get the correct info ? Call Bill at Bore Tech, he will tell you; he does this every day. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/23/17 at 03:34:36 Yep......send your jug and piston to Bill at Boretech. This is a critical step in getting a good running, reliable and lasting engine. Bill does this every day, it is all he does - he is the best! Your friend with the CNC....does he also have a good hone to create the cross hatch needed for a good break in and ring seating? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/23/17 at 03:53:47 Bill at Bore Tech is very reasonable, you can get the cylinder bored, honed and get the Silicone Carbide Treatment on the cylinder for less than $200. That is much cheaper than having to rebuild an engine after it self destructs. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by ohiomoto on 09/23/17 at 04:08:34 4B607A617B7C676E393B5C080 wrote:
-------------------------- I just upload my pics to the site as an attachment. They'll be here as long as the site is here. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/23/17 at 05:44:07 737E717C7A6D2D281F0 wrote:
He commonly has downhole oil & gas tooling and hydraulic cylinders and and pistons, and aerospace contraption r&d in his shop. Mostly just hobby stuff when it comes to motors. I was hoping to save the extra $ but having it bored, mated to piston, and coated is sounding enticing. The target tolerances either way are freaking gravy. My buddy and I are both accustomed to +/-.0002" tolerances working with common and exotic materials. Neither of us however have access to the coating process of choice. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/23/17 at 05:50:26 You could do the bore & hone yourselves and then send it to Bill for the Silicone Carbide, if desired. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/23/17 at 06:23:22 606D626F697E3E3B0C0 wrote:
If he is reasonable on the coating job just by itself (and is willing to share super secret clearance measurements lol) then that may be an option. I was flipping through a couple of the "big bore" threads and I'm sure it was you that just did the 97mm build... how is it holding up? I "accidentally" broke off the studs that hold that stupid heavy honking exhaust on the bike while removing it... Contemplating a shorty cheapo glass pack, some torch and welder play... then some ceramic paint and exhaust wrap... How much back pressure did you shoot for with the volumetric increase when you decided on exhaust? Did you have both the cylinder and piston coated? It looks like he offers both, and a variety of options for piston coating (top, skirt, all). |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/23/17 at 07:18:31 It is not so much "back pressure" that is needed - what is needed is something that can cancel/smooth out the pressure waves bouncing up and down the length of the exhaust system. A glass pack or any muffler that you can see through - won't be able to do that. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by thumperclone on 09/23/17 at 07:49:39 I have a 3" hardkrome slash cut muff you can see thru spiral wound baff no packing bike runs like a champ draw back its very LOUD |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/23/17 at 08:18:53 764D4057464A51574C444956250 wrote:
Gotcha. I'll do some more lookin and see what pops up. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Ruttly on 09/23/17 at 09:47:11 Boretech's services are worth every penny and Bill is easy to deal with. Quick turn around. Always send your new piston with your cylinder ! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/23/17 at 12:01:56 466D776C76716A63343651050 wrote:
If he is reasonable on the coating job just by itself (and is willing to share super secret clearance measurements lol) then that may be an option. I was flipping through a couple of the "big bore" threads and I'm sure it was you that just did the 97mm build... how is it holding up? I "accidentally" broke off the studs that hold that stupid heavy honking exhaust on the bike while removing it... Contemplating a shorty cheapo glass pack, some torch and welder play... then some ceramic paint and exhaust wrap... How much back pressure did you shoot for with the volumetric increase when you decided on exhaust? Did you have both the cylinder and piston coated? It looks like he offers both, and a variety of options for piston coating (top, skirt, all). [/quote] I do not remember the exact cost off hand. It the last time I looked the cost for a bore/hone/silicone carbide was $185. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/24/17 at 14:41:22 5A716B706A6D767F282A4D190 wrote:
I had a very similar situation with a knocking sound that was really hard to isolate. It turned out to be the piston slapping. The engine still ran pretty strong and the knocking even disappeared once off idle a bit. After a new piston and cleaning up the cylinder and honing it again, it runs really freaking good ! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:32:01 29242B2620377772450 wrote:
I had a very similar situation with a knocking sound that was really hard to isolate. It turned out to be the piston slapping. The engine still ran pretty strong and the knocking even disappeared once off idle a bit. After a new piston and cleaning up the cylinder and honing it again, it runs really freaking good ! [/quote] Was that what prompted the 97mm upgrade? I have settled on going ahead with Bill doing the bore, hone, and coating when I get a shiny new piston in. If bees keep me as busy as they have been then (fingers x'd) I can have it on the way to him in a week or 2. In the meantime... A little chop chop here... and a slash or two there... Attempting to add a pic of the piston... If it works I will add some more. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:33:47 The jug. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:34:42 Cam. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:36:24 Rocker followers. What looks like a cut or scratch or line on the one follower is a reflection. They are both perfectly smooth to touch with the correct profile. No indications of excess wear. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:40:01 Valves... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:42:03 The bike. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:42:54 Another pic of the bike. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:43:45 I think this is the pic of the odomometer... Yeah... This was the day I rode it home when I bought it. Didn't even give it a bath before taking a pic of the miles on it lol. It is now sitting at 4150.7 It made it 75 miles or so after the sputter incident at 70-80mph where it developed the knock. It could very well have had low compression before then for all I know... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/24/17 at 23:49:07 Empty bike... Heart fell out... And no comments about my cluttered, project rich shop environment lol. It is very neatly organized chaos! I don't label a mothercrappity smacking thing... EVER! I have had the ability to keep track of every single nut, bolt, screw, washer, hose clamp, spacer, alignment pin, etc on projects in the works for as long as I can remember. Even as a little nuts helping my pops work on this or that I just knew where everything needed to go to put it back together. It can look chaotic from the outside but It has rarely failed me. Measurements stick with me too. Since I acquired my Savage and then a couple weeks ago my Thundercat, I have been stricken with the strong bug to wrench on more bikes. This has prompted me to make more room in the shop... So a whole lot or organizing and rearranging has taken place in the last day and a half. I now have room for at least 3 more complete bike teardowns lol. If I get rid of an arcade machine and a jukebox I can fit one more! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 00:04:03 I wonder if I feed them enough ethanol, if they might copulate and birth a YamaZuki SavageCat? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 09/25/17 at 02:58:16 I really don't know why your piston did that.....it look bad! The only time I am familiar with piston problems on the Savage, is when it is run out of oil. The bike loses some oil when ridden at sustained interstate speeds, and the owners are not used to the engine using oil - and a few have run them out of oil. I would like a better photo of the lobes on the cam - the rockers are showing some wear, and the cam lobes might be wearing as well. I had Boretech do my 95mm Wiseco, and I had the silicone carbide treatment done. That was about 9,000 miles ago - it is still running like new! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Ruttly on 09/25/17 at 05:53:34 I agree Dave low oil level or neglected oil or possible that it ran lean for too long and problem has progressed or both. But skirt wear like that is a overheating issue the question is what caused the overheating. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 10:17:57 Both cams look and feel and measure out to be free of wear. There is what may be some heat discoloration (or burnt on oil deposits) and a very small abrasion on the lobe farthest from the gear(intake). Both lobes measure out to dead nuts perfect in the middle of the tolerance call out. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 10:22:24 Anything look screwy with the profile? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 10:33:09 The folower pads... There is seriously no scoring or wear... Just some very light discoloration from what I can see on the intake pad...maybe some wiping from a very brief period of running dry? The line that looks like a dent or scratch on the exhaust pad does not show up in measurement with an indicator on my xy table. It is like a polished line... if that makes sense... The finish on both pads is 63-32ra by feel. I might lightly polish the intake pad(I have the buffers, rouges, profile and radius gauges to do this properly). |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 10:34:33 Another pic of the followers... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/25/17 at 11:12:11 Christof13T I already had a 97mm Wiseco piston in the engine, it just sat for a bit too long and when I did start it the rust that developed around the rings caused the piston to be yanked sideways and that started the damage...but it still ran. The cylinder had some aluminum stuck to it; REALLY HARD; but I was able to scrap it off and the honed the cylinder again. So I got a new piston and ZOOM ZOOM ! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/25/17 at 11:16:49 153E243F25223930676502560 wrote:
This reminded me a lot of what my piston looked like. At first glance it looked as though there was a groove in the wall, but when you slide your fingers over it you felt the slight hump of aluminum. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/25/17 at 11:23:51 http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/zookjugscores.jpg Your cylinder reminded me of what mine looked like, except that the mark on the wall looked like a groove, while actually mine was a slight hump caused by an aluminum deposit from when the piston was yanked sideways. I carefully scrapped it off and honed it again and it was good to go. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/25/17 at 15:24:26 I know it sat for a year or a little longer, in the weather before I brought it home... and before that I think it had sat for a few years prior to the p.o. I bought it from riding it home to his house and parked it... (40 miles or so). I could probably get away with just honing and putting in a fresh piston... but why not go big for what it costs? I don't think I mentioned what I paid for the bike... I got this thing for 450$ U.S. with a clean title. So I feel like whatever I put into it will be money already saved.. so what the hell right? ;D |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/25/17 at 16:57:52 664D574C56514A43141671250 wrote:
I like your thought process ! [ch128526][ch127949][ch128513][ch128641][ch128526] |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by ohiomoto on 09/26/17 at 06:28:10 That piston and cylinder look bad, but your friggin shop looks worse! Organizes chaos my @ss! Ha, ha.... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/26/17 at 07:12:16 7572737577756E751A0 wrote:
Tripping over crap prompted me to organize a bit. There was an 07 hyundai tiburon taking up my long bay at the time I took the pictures... I just got rid of a bunch of crap I was never gonna use to make more room lol. Still need to get rid of a Mercedes R170 supercharged 4 banger sitting under the plastic in the left of the picture, a 7.3 powerstroke on a pallet right in front of that... the darn jukebox and arcade machine that I will never touch lol. Junk! Junk Everywhere! The little 110cc chicom quad in front of the bikes is a kid's from down the road... He ran it without an air filter until it wouldn't run anymore lol. So it too is in need of a new jug and piston... I don't understand the kids of this new age... He only needs to come up with like 60$ and he will have a new jug, piston, and carb on it rocking and rolling... It's been in my garage for 2 months now and the little sucker just spent all his birthday money on one of those stupid hoverboard deathtrap things you see on all the youtube fail videos lol. Dood could have had one heck of a china quad for that 250$ or so lol. It gets to be very challenging to keep organized with all I have going on. I regularly have to change setups between mechanical/engine work... to machine work... to carpentry when its time to build hives and whatnot. So between tooling and materials storage I run out of space quickly. Thinning down is helping. I mean... who the hell needs 6 weed eaters lol?! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/26/17 at 16:25:30 So how many hives do you have ? Do you have SUPERS on any ? 1-2-3 stacks ? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/26/17 at 22:18:37 79747B7670672722150 wrote:
Before the hurricane we were up to 150+ hives spread across 5 bee yards. We are still finding bits and pieces of hives scattered deep into the brush, but currently estimate we lost 50-60 hives between wind and flooding. We have 10 or so Langstroth hives... They are just kind of playtoy hives for us. We focus primarily on top bar style hives. I work in a partnership with my beekeeping mentor doing live bee colony removals and relocations. We specialize in very aggressive colonies and structure extractions, and subsequent domestication of feral bees. Every one of our colonies was either from a live removal, or split from a colony that we removed. I am babysitting 1 Langstroth for a buddy that has a commercial BeeWeaver colony in it AND I HATE THEM! lol I'll take my bulletproof, hearty, mean as Hell - South Texas Africanized mutts any day of the week over a commercial colony. The beekeeping community has done a serious disservice to the honeybee by coddling the species over the last 75-100 years. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 09/27/17 at 03:25:39 WOW, that's a mess of bees ! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 09/27/17 at 07:01:26 59545B5650470702350 wrote:
A mess of little flying dollar signs lol. The mess really comes around when it's time for honey harvesting. (Which will happen here in the next few weeks if the weather cooperates) We are estimating that even with the damage from the storm, we should pull 100+ gallons of honey this season. The following link is to my apiary's Facebook page if anybody has an interest: http://www.facebook.com/awesomebees |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 10/22/17 at 03:28:14 Just a minor update... New Wiseco 97mm piston is ordered and should be here in the next day or two! While the bike has been sitting in pieces I have taken the opportunity to freshen up the paint on the frame and polish most of the chrome. It came out way better than I expected for how bad some of it was when I started on the buffer. Burned out my buffer polishing stuff lol. Really hoping stuff around the house (and my dang truck) stops breaking though so I can have some time to work on the Savage. With my current situation with vehicles... The Savage will likely be ridden primarily by my better half to and from work. With that being the case... I have started prodding for suggestions on appearance modifications. She is leaning toward a semi-bobber build. Airbox delete, Battery relocate, rear fender chop, bobber saddle. Possibly extended controls. Fenders and tank are getting rhino lined. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 10/25/17 at 17:58:47 So I'm ready to order a gasket set to get this ball rolling as soon as the jug and piston come back from boretech. I'm having difficulty finding a gasket set for 2006 year model engines. Does it matter? Will a set listed to fit up to 2004 fit the 2006? Jug and piston are getting sent off tomorrow! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/17 at 18:41:56 Who's putting rings in? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 10/26/17 at 02:05:01 Not sure yet. Going to call Boretech later on this morning to see if they fit rings after the bore, hone, coating process or if they leave that to the customer. If not, then my better half will actually get the pleasure of fitting rings when she puts the motor back together. (she expressed an interest in taking part in reassembly so heck yeah I'm letting her run with it lol!) Fitting rings is gravy work. Not like its a v8! Anybody got an idea on the gasket set for the `04 fitting the `06? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 10/26/17 at 03:53:08 Gasket sets are gasket sets......for the Savage. They all interchange. The quality control and standards on Wiseco parts is excellent....you are not going to have to do anything with fitting the rings......but you can go through the routine to get the little woman involved. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 10/26/17 at 07:54:55 043F3225343823253E363B24570 wrote:
I got impatient and went ahead and ordered a 2005-2006 year model specific labeled set from 2wheelpros.com. part # on the set I ordered is 11400-24858 For anybody else looking at specific year model gasket sets for whatever reason... k5 relates to 2005, k6 to 2006, so forth and so on. That's kind of nice of Wiseco! Yeah, we will still go through the motions of setting rings in the bore one by one and squaring them, and feeling up the gaps ;D ... |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/17 at 10:24:50 When I was doing the top end of a Raptor the Yamaha ring sets failed. Not one measured tight enough. Finally the owner saw me and realized that I was always carrying rings... He told the parts guy to get my problem solved. After the guy had assured me that Their mechanics use their rings, and no problem. I declined to go with end gaps Their manual said were unacceptable. They fixed me up with a piston and rings, lost money, and my problem was solved. Don't settle for less. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 10/31/17 at 06:56:26 26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:
Huh? I get what your saying, but this is a bit of a different situation... Suzuki already told me to basically go F*** myself, so I decided to go well out of factory acceptable bore tolerances... At 97mm there is nothing Suzuki will be able to do for rings... So if anything, a ring issue would be on Wiseco to fix. I really don't anticipate any kind of issues with their stringent quality standards. The piston, rings, and pin look absolutely perfect. Don't remember if i already posted the info or not... But I weighed the old piston with the rings, pin, and no clips for a total of 509grams. The new piston with rings and pin, no clips... weighed 494grams. The old piston is still carrying some extra weight from baked on carbon and cooked oil... so I'm not too worried about balance issues. Some unexpected gremlins around the home front have prevented me from sending off the jug and piston... but I did get them packed up and ready for send off last night. I WILL be dropping them off at the shipper today! Stuff needs to stop breaking! I have important things to do working on my bike lol! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/17 at 14:22:19 ! Stuff needs to stop breaking! I decided to go well out of factory acceptable bore tolerances... At 97mm there is nothing Suzuki will be able to do for rings. That's kinda funny,, Regardless of provider, sometimes stuff isn't in spec. I Could have just slammed the parts together, but I can't be fixing stuff twice. It's not a comfort that they told me, Hey, OUR mechanics use them. When their own maintenance manual explicitly laid out the acceptable gaps. Good luck with it all. It's not unheard of. Isn't that what a few guys here are running? You gonna smooth that exhaust port out? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 11/02/17 at 04:39:34 2A353334292E1F2F1F27353972400 wrote:
I have only read of a couple guys running the 97mm dr650 piston. Lancer and Dave. I guess I will be #3? Yes... Exhaust is getting some heavy attention... Intake will get the little nub whittled down. Stock carb is getting a RYCA pancake filter and I'm trying out a 6Sigma "stage 1-7 big bore" jet kit. Sticking with the stock exhaust for now. I'm not concerned with the gaps being too tight... That is what files are for. I will have a problem with Wiseco if they are too loose lol. The jug and new piston went out to Bore-Tech with USPS yesterday right about noon. Major changes in appearance are in process. Got a solo seat and associated bracketry on the way. New blacked out lower profile turn signals also on the way. Stuff REALLY needs to stop breaking around here! Went out to go warm up the crotch rocket and run up to the corner store for a pack of smokes this morning and no freaking instrument cluster lights or headlight! Freaking GRRRR!!! lol |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Dave on 11/02/17 at 05:13:44 There are a lot of Wiseco piston in Savages......Lancer can give you a better idea how many he has sold - but I do know that his first order of 94mm Wiseco pistons was a dozen, and they are all sold and his second dozen is currently being made. Verslagen and I are running the 95mm Wiseco. I went with the 95mm as it would allow me to go to the 96mm and/or 97mm if I ever broke the 95mm - almost 10,000 miles have gone by and it is running great! I can't think of anyone running the 96mm - but I imagine somebody is using one. Us conservative guys go with the 94/95mm...the adventurous ones use the 97mm. Lancer, SuperThumper, perhaps Ruttly, and a several others are running the 97mm Wiseco. The stock piston is cast aluminum - the Wiseco is forged aluminum. Wiseco has been in business a long time, and they know how to make pistons. The Savage engine is a pretty mild place for a piston to be - it is not going to be over stressed in the Savage as long as you keep good oil in the engine and feed it clean air. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Ruttly on 11/02/17 at 10:15:47 Yes I run the 97mm. That piston was almost too pretty to put inside where you can't see it. No problems but not many miles yet. Figured cylinders are cheap on ebay so why not go big! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 11/03/17 at 03:43:47 604746465E4B320 wrote:
Aren't they just a beautiful piece of machined metal ? [ch128513][ch128077][ch127949][ch128526] |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Ruttly on 11/03/17 at 05:52:39 Yes they are , you know when you take it out of the cloth bag that it is quality and money well spent ! Only gearheads can appreciate that sort of stuff ! |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 11/04/17 at 06:05:27 6F626D6066713134030 wrote:
Aren't they just a beautiful piece of machined metal ? [ch128513][ch128077][ch127949][ch128526][/quote] You wouldn't believe how much cushioning I stuffed in the box to go off to Bore-Tech lol. Made DANG sure it is gonna stay pretty! I just checked and the package has been delivered to Bore-Tech! The gasket set and 6Sigma jet kit have both arrived. I am not impressed with the 6Sigma kit. I will elaborate, but not yet... The gasket set looks to have pretty much everything included except for that oil cap seal doo dad for the bolt hole in the head... guess I will get one of those on order pronto! What is the revised part # for that little buggar? |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by batman on 11/04/17 at 08:10:34 OLD PART #11145-41b01 , NEW PART #11145-37401 |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by LANCER on 11/04/17 at 09:11:38 The official count on the number of 97mm pistons in LS650's is "A Bunch" ! There have got to be at least 50-60 or more that have been put in over the years. Most were from Wiseco but maybe a dozen were Wossner. |
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Title: Re: Another new toy, Another new forum... Post by Christof13T on 11/05/17 at 17:59:52 38353A3731266663540 wrote:
That makes me feel much more confident in the whole endeavor. At this point, with the exception of a new oil plug cap doo dad, everything to put the motor back together when the jug and piston come back is here and waiting. Batman, thank you for the part number. I will run up to the local dealer tuesday to get one on order... I doubt there will be one on the shelves. Really starting to chomp at the bit to start wrenching on it lol. |
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