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Message started by CaptHowdy on 07/30/17 at 08:59:53

Title: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 07/30/17 at 08:59:53

Timing marks don't line up. Motor turns freely with good compression. Hoping I don't have to pull the head.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 07/30/17 at 10:00:09

Here's how the marks compare. I'll read up on what to do next.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 07/30/17 at 10:01:17

Hers the other end.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by kiwi rider 89 on 07/30/17 at 17:06:17

Hay I replaced me cam chain a few weeks ago with a retied bike mechanic here are 2 pic's of how he found top dead center for timing (fyi both side covers where removed)

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by kiwi rider 89 on 07/30/17 at 17:10:42

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by kiwi rider 89 on 07/30/17 at 17:11:13

2 left side

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Savageman on 07/30/17 at 23:36:15

I'd make darn sure you are using the correct timing marks on the alternator to get to proper TDC. If you aren't at TDC (compression stroke) then valve timing will be off when you assemble the chain.
An old trick. Pull the spark plug and put a straw in the hole. Then turn the crankshaft slowly until the straw is up as high as it will go. Then check your marks. And make sure it's TDC on the compression stroke. Both intake and exhaust valves will be closed and have clearance on rockers. If your cam is off then pull the sprocket and move the chain to make it line up with marks.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 07/31/17 at 12:52:11

She's jumped time by golly. With the valve cover off, I can see the cam lobes are all facing down with the piston TDC. The crank marks are lined up as they should, but the cam mark looks 3 or 4 teeth off. Clutch cover coming off tonight so I can at the CC tensioner.

Is the cam shaft two-piece? That is, the sprocket has to come to line the cam shaft up? I can see where there's no good way move the chain from under the crank, unless i plan to replace the chain.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/17 at 13:19:08

210312162A0D15061B620 wrote:

I'm surprised, I tried to get the chain to jump and couldn't do it.
I guess that's like idiot proof. Didn't have the right one.
The gear is bolted to the cam, unbolt it then you can slide it over so you can pull the cam.
Don't remember if you can shift the chain w/out pulling the cam.
Wait, you must be able to.
You can pull the guide down to get more slack, not easy to put though, but can be done.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/17 at 13:20:57

182A3D2A2C2E262A257E7D4B0 wrote:

W/out the cam, when is the compression stroke?

answer: every stroke.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Savageman on 07/31/17 at 14:21:05

You mentioned the cam lobes are facing down? If so then you are not on the compression stroke. Cam lobes need to be facing up at TDC. Replacing any valve train components is a very detail oriented job and you need to know what you are doing or you will blow the engine. Piston may come up and hit the valves if timing is wrong. Then time for a new top end.

You unbolt the cam sprocket to move the chain. Time to buy a service manual.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/17 at 14:45:35

6557405751535B57580300360 wrote:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/cam_exposed.JPG
You'll notice in the pic, lobes are down. Also note the alignment pin at 1 o'clock (viewed from other side)
Lobes up will depress valves which is not TDC.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Savageman on 07/31/17 at 15:02:50

TDC (compression stroke) and cam lobes facing down is correct. A service manual is also a good reference to have if this is a first time job.
You always want to double check that the valves are closed if you've had the cam out. You can make any TDC a compression stroke when installing a chain and or new cam components.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by kiwi rider 89 on 07/31/17 at 20:48:44

sorry i forgot to say the pics are with the lobes facing down

I hope the pic's are of help

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 08/01/17 at 09:52:28

While I have the valve cover off, I might as well do some preventive maintenance like torque the head bolts, clean up the head plug (mine don't leak oil, yet) and inspection cover o-rings, adjust valves (once the cover is back on). Odd that there is no gasket between the valve cover and top of the cylinder head...just Permatex. Finally, I'll clean all the dirt, grime and mud dobber nest off, then paint the valve cover flat black (high temp paint). Am I missing anything?

PS The above will happen once I get the CC and valve timing sorted out.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Dave on 08/01/17 at 09:58:02

You should not use the stock head plug....it will fail eventually. You would be much better off if you bought the Verslagen head plug and used it...it won't leak.

Also the stuff between the head and head cover is not Permatex. It is Suzukibond and it behaves differently than other RTV. It sets up slower and gives you more time to work, and it is specifically made for sealing air cooled engines.

http://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Suzuki_Bond_p/suzuki%20bond.htm

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 08/01/17 at 14:48:21

Verslagen has been pretty good to me in a couple of deals, so I am happy to order a head bolt plug.

Is there a Permatex or Loctite equivalent to Suzukibond?

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 08/01/17 at 14:49:22

Hondabond, or 3bond

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Dave on 08/02/17 at 04:23:06

4A68797D41667E6D70090 wrote:

Verslagen has been pretty good to me in a couple of deals, so I am happy to order a head bolt plug.

Is there a Permatex or Loctite equivalent to Suzukibond?

The stuff you buy at the autostore is not the same as Suzukibond. It sets up really fast and gives you very little time to work.....and it hardens in the tube very quickly. The Suzukibond sets up slower, it seems to be a bit less slippery as when it comes out of the tube, and it can last years in the tube in your toolbox. The Suzukibond is black and looks good on a black engine, I believe the Hondabond and 3Bond are grey.

Don't do this....nothing screams "I have been worked on" like seeing RTV oozing out of the seams.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/17 at 06:39:48

Even IF you can like RTV poking out, don't use it. Yeah, it's been done successfully, but it comes with more opportunity to screw things up.
And it Really does look tacky.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 08/06/17 at 15:54:42

I've got the valve timing correctly set now. The cam was off 4 teeth, which I believe was due to the CC adjuster shoulder bolt backing out. I haven't yet put the top cover back on because I'm concerned why I can only turn engine one direction.

The valve cover is removed and the spark plug is out, yet the crank will only turn anti-clockwise when looking at the left side. Given the cover and plug are removed, shouldn't the crank be able to be rocked back and forth a few degrees for fine positioning; in the case of valve timing?

My engine seems to be locked if I try to turn the crank even the slightly clockwise. It makes me feel like there may be something still floating around inside buggering things up. I don't want to box things up until I'm sure I've got everything right.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Dave on 08/06/17 at 16:22:44

Did you take the left side engine cover off, and get the washers on the torque limiter in the wrong place?

If you put a washer on the rear idler gear.....the gear is being pinched between the case and cover, and that is preventing the engine from turning over when the starter ratchet mechanism engages.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 08/06/17 at 16:35:24

No you should never turn the crank backwards for timing, you don't want slack in the chain in the normal direction.
and 2, the starter clutch will engage and lock it up. if you have the torque limiter gear it will twang and release, if you don't... your pocket book will crack open and large sums of cash will fly out.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 08/06/17 at 17:47:03

Dave, yes I removed the left side cover and I could have easily got the washers wrong. I can only work on the engine a few hours a month because I spend a lot of time working offshore. I will investigate the washers next weekend. Excellent advice--thank you.

Meantime, I'm paralized with fear that large sums of cash are positioning to fly out of my pockets!

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/06/17 at 19:22:28

e I spend a lot of time working offshore.

Hopefully you can fix it for cheap, but, if not, you can handle it, right?

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 08/13/17 at 16:07:45

Today, I did a dry-fit on the valve cover to double-check valve operation vs. piston position vs crank and cam shaft timing marks. I declared the task a total success.

I still have my issue with the left side cover pinching/ preventing the starter from turning/engaging. There's always next weekend...

PS This gives me time to order my Suzuki Bond! Doesn't seem like the best design--a flexible seal between the rockers and the valve stems. How to get an accurate clearance between the cams and the rockers and valve stems with an elastic joint? I know; there isn't enough difference to make a difference.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/13/17 at 16:19:52

The elasticity allows you to
Slowly
Carefully
After many gentle passes around the bolts
To get the cover down tight.
Then it doesn't move.

Don't use much. A thin application.
Don't want to have it squeezing out and going places.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 09/06/17 at 07:02:28

After removing left side cover, I discovered three shim washers dropped out and now looking for a home. The parts lists shows one shim goes outside the starter clutch gear, and I'm guessing the other two go on either side of the starter idler gear. I'm posting this question since I realized "guessing" is not the best strategy.

The valve cover is back on the engine with Suzukibond and torqued to 8 ft lbs.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/17 at 07:23:05

Nope guess again.

1 on each side of the torque gear. None on the idle gear.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 07:35:54

456776724E6971627F060 wrote:

How many passes through the torque pattern did you make?

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 09/06/17 at 07:51:08

But, i got three shims. When I did a dry fit on the left side cover a couple of weeks ago, the starter got in a bind due to a shim wrongly put on the idler gear. Is is possible the torque gear gets two shims on the outside side and one shim on the inside. The torque gear never came off due to interference with the stator. The shims are all the same size.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 09/06/17 at 07:57:02

I replaced all the valve cover bolts finger tight, then next day snugged them all up starting from the center bolt and worked my way around. After another 24 hours, I torqued them all to 72 in lbs and went to bed. Next day, I torqued all the bolts to 96 in lbs and called it good. Once I get the motor to start, I'll re-torque the valve cover bolts one last time.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by Dave on 09/06/17 at 08:11:29

62405155694E564558210 wrote:

Once I get the motor to start, I'll re-torque the valve cover bolts one last time.

Don't do it.......just leave the the head cover bolts alone - they strip and break easily.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 11:04:06

I wouldn't touch those bolts again.

Title: Re: Bad Timing
Post by CaptHowdy on 09/06/17 at 14:33:05

By all accounts, I got two extra shims with no home. Is it possible that Suzuki would add shims on the starter clutch pin to make up for manufacturing irregularities?