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Message started by Oldfeller on 07/26/17 at 18:33:13

Title: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Oldfeller on 07/26/17 at 18:33:13

source, CNN Money

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/26/autos/countries-that-are-banning-gas-cars-for-electric/index.html

Brittain says electric vehicles have gotten good enough -- good enough that they are banning ALL gas engines past year 2040. They are not the last European country to do something like this as passing far future resolutions to "feel good" is relatively cheap and easy to do.

Hey, it is easy for politicians to pass a resolution -- it gets a lot stickier when the deadline arrives.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by jcstokes on 07/26/17 at 18:48:04

Lots of power stations needed, even if people charge at night. Britain doesn't have much, if any hydro and not a lot of wind, except from politicians and bureaucrats. Coal, oil and nuclear could be looking good, unless your Mr Rossi gets his technology going in a big way.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by SALB on 07/27/17 at 09:46:10

Looks like Volvo is already heading that way. :-/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/05/volvo-cars-electric-hybrid-2019

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/27/17 at 14:15:47

More
Progress
I won't see..

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Steve H on 07/27/17 at 15:55:09

Yeah I saw where Volvo announced that they will be closing in 2020 the other day on the news.

When it can carry enough power to give me a 1,200 mile day and recharge in the time it takes to fill up with gas, I'll consider it before laughing and buying something that works. This from someone who has owned and driven an electric car. I loved the car. Too bad it was completely impractical.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by wakosama on 07/28/17 at 08:46:25

Here's another one...?

http://news.mit.edu/2014/premium-gas-could-save-fuel-money-1028

or...

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/

or...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/966432/2

Gas is a fun subject too.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Dave on 07/28/17 at 09:21:35

There are a lot of changes that will have to come about if gasoline cars are going away in the US.

While it is true that a lot of folks drive less than 100 miles a day and could likely use an electric car most of the time - all you need to do is get on the major highways and start looking at license plates to realize how many people are traveling through your area. Vacationers, salesman, service people, trucks, etc. need to be able to travel hundreds of miles a day the way things are set up in the US.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/17 at 09:38:02

Will it make my father's Oldsmobile a collector car?

If gasoline isn't produced in quantity, then the few gallons for the mower, weed eater, chainsaw, and the Important People who will have waivers might be Expensive.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Dave on 07/28/17 at 09:44:26

46595F5845427343734B59551E2C0 wrote:

If gasoline isn't produced in quantity, then the few gallons for the mower, weed eater, chainsaw, and the Important People who will have waivers might be Expensive.

I believe this is a huge issue for the small farmer. How can a subsistence farmer afford to buy new equipment?

There are a lot of small farmers still using their Ford 8N tractors - and they don't like E10 fuel...but the EPA doesn't care and still makes it so the farmer can't buy pure gasoline. A lot of this equipment is used seasonally, and months can pass without the equipment being used - and that is plenty of time for the E10 to corrode their fuel tank and carb.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/17 at 10:30:27

Legislative sabotage, destroying what wouldn't otherwise die, forcing the purchase of new technology. But, running farmers out of business has never been a problem. I watched it happen when I was a kid. They use subsidies to build up the biggest at the expense of the smallest, and then they have to sell out. It's easier to control a few, instead of a larger part of the population. Big ag sux.
The fuel and the crappy ethanol is Obsoleting equipment that would run for a hundred years with basic maintenance.
Ohhh, but, it's for your own good.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by HAPPYDAN on 07/30/17 at 07:55:24

Dino oil is a limited commodity. It is going to run out. They don't make it any more. Legislation is unnecessary. Time will dictate the need for change. In the interim, forward thinking entities are planning for the future (Tesla?). Maybe not in my lifetime, but my grandkids may well know a time when gasoline powered cars are museum exhibits only.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/30/17 at 17:14:05

oil producingzonesrecharging

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/17 at 09:05:41

5C617A6D6C5C7F616B6D080 wrote:

Did you know that we keep finding brand new, massive deposits of oil underground all the time?

Did you know that some of the oldest Pennsylvania oil fields have actually come up with some moderate amounts of oil again? New oil from the original pumped dry oil fields ......

We really don't know how "oil" comes about, the theory that oil is old dinosaurs and super rotted plant life is mostly just pure theory. If it were true, all coal mines would be dripping with oil, and they are actually dry except for a little ground water.

Now that we are making large amounts of Bio Diesel commercially, we understand that pressure degrading plant materials makes certain chains of stuff that ARE NOT FOUND IN A LOT OF RAW CRUDE OIL SOURCES. We do find these chains found in oils made from the bacterias that are common to many porous rock strata.

Oil may be the result of cubic miles of LIFE that normally naturally lives inside of porous rocks .....

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/31/17 at 10:42:35

An understanding of geology makes believing dead stuff is where oil comes from really difficult.
The oil producing zones are commonly high pressure and many thousands of feet below ground.
What geological events Buried stuff so deep?
I'm supposed to believe it developed a few hundred feet below surface and dripped into a higher pressure area UNDER the rocks that require a huge mass on top of a drill bit spinning for hours and weeks and even months, yeah, right.
And, do the math.

What percentage of living organisms get trapped so they don't decay like the grass we mow?
How many tons of dead plants and animals would it take to make a ton of oil?
How many tons of oil get shipped every day?
How many years has that been going on?

Critical thinking skills required..

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 07/31/17 at 20:47:20

How much ,gas, oil, coal burning or radioactive waste are we ready to deal with to charge all these smog saving cars? these cars may do more harm to the planet than what your driving now .Converting AC to DC to charge batteries ,involves a 6-25% lose in power due to heat,what do you think we're really saving? And these cars (small) are costing $ 30,000 and up,and how long do the batteries last? What is the replacement cost when they gut your car to change them?(parts and labor)

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/17 at 20:53:52

batty, they're just beginning to figure all this sh!t out.
new tech every year... wait till LENR comes out.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/01/17 at 07:46:06

I'm waitin with battied breath.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/17 at 07:52:08

607F797E63645565556D7F73380A0 wrote:

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/17 at 07:53:58

3A392C3539366C60580 wrote:

Another Real Questions that need answered post that is being ignored.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/17 at 17:42:46

Wow..doesn't take much reality to drive people away.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/02/17 at 21:22:59

Lenr,so who's going to ride the first bike power by these? I hope your wearing your lead underwear if they leak.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by verslagen1 on 08/02/17 at 21:29:11

"cold fusion" means no radiation... but I understand they can generate some gama. So you'll turn green and hulk out a little bit. ;)

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/02/17 at 22:01:04

cooling medium,molten lead ,have some of that run down your leg and you'll be praying for road rash.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by verslagen1 on 08/02/17 at 22:22:05

it's ok... you can walk.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by jcstokes on 08/06/17 at 02:55:02

It just occurred to me that on 27/10/39 I will turn ninety, if I'm still on the planet and not in the dementia/alzheimer ward. so I don't know if I'll worry about the demise of the ic engine in vehicles.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/17 at 03:48:25

If I were gonna make a steam sickle, it would have two cylinders (each acting 180 out of phase to the other so the exhaust of stroke A could be utilized by cylinder B as a lower power "free" return power stroke for best efficiency.

A fancy sports engine could have the piston be high pressure driven both ways up and down the length of the cylinder (these were called "full power double acting" steam engines). Or since we got computers running the show, heavy throttle twist could call up the beast mode and cruising could call up low dump pressure return stroke mode.

Steam would normally be high pressure on primary cylinder and low pressure on the secondary cylinder. On the full power double acting sports bike engines this would be sorta complex to change up and keep synced --- this mode change thing would likely not be needed for an efficient cruiser type motorcycle.

RPMs would be very low as you are full power stroking only every other rotation of the rear wheel. spray.... blast of high pressure steam..... exhaust goes to the other cylinder's power stroke (then goes out to a condenser radiator to recover the water) .... spray new water mist for a new blast of high pressure steam and do it all again.

LENR steam generation chamber would be insulated for both high temperature/pressure and for radiation. Tungsten comes to mind as a good candidate for the steam chamber as radiation control is built in. A multi layer vacuum thermos bottle type approach for the insulation might be very useable as well as light and it works good even if it is thin relatively speaking.

Steam would only exist in the white hot chunk of tungsten steam generator when the water injector sprayed a blast of water mist into the chamber and flashed it into steam.

Keeping up with things is a lot easier than in an IC engine as the RPM is really very low (0 to 1,400 rear wheel rpms means zero to 100mph). Our Savage idles at about these speeds.

What folks forget about steam is from the very first revolution it is at FULL Torque and that it does not have to be high RPM to give great acceleration to a light motorcycle.

No transmission is needed ...... just a engage/disengage one way sprag system and some brakes. A computer would control the water mist injector and the high pressure steam would only exist right when it entered into the high pressure cylinder itself.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/06/17 at 12:50:59

I believe a multi cylinder 2 stroke motor could be converted to use as a steam engine,and would not involve the use of double acting pistons ,It would provide a higher rpm and could be adapted to a muliti speed trans for a bit better performance.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by raydawg on 08/06/17 at 13:42:34

I work for a airplane builder.
I worked on the plane that had a battery mishap.
This battery was not even of the size, and magnitude, it will take to power that which a fossil fuel does presently.
It was only used to start a motor and to maintain electronics with the APU off, or the mains.
You saw what happened to just one battery cell failing due to contamination....

This is purely agenda driven without much thought, only feelings, multipled by 10 fold, by the scientific, and political astute, elites.....

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by LockeClone on 08/08/17 at 02:38:51

77746178747B212D150 wrote:

I don't think anybody addressed this. What you're referring to is two things:

1. The resources needed to build the vehicle and 2. the wheel-to-wheel energy cost.

First, the resources needed to build the vehicle: I'm not sure why many people believe that building an electric car is any more damaging to the environment. It has many of the same processes and components of your average car. I suppose people imagine the battery as being extra-harmful to the environment... Well, we recycle lead-acid batteries at a rate of 98% in this country and the cobalt and lithium sulfide in lithium batteries is less poisonous yet more valuable, so it's not a stretch to imagine these batteries being recycled at a similar or higher rate.

And we should start seeing solid-state batteries popping up in the next decade or so which promise to be better in almost every way and contain no liquid.

An EV is about the same size and weight as an IC car... They're probably about equivalent in their resource consumption... I could be wrong. I had trouble finding any good publication that wasn't political.

The second thing you're referring to is know as "wheel-to-wheel" fuel cost. It is in this category where you are quite wrong about EV's taking anywhere near the energy to go a mile when compared to IC vehicles.

You mentioned losses in heat when converting from AC to DC. True enough. Also the energy could be generated by coal. True enough. So if we put 100 units of energy into a coal plant, we generate 40 (40%) units transfer 30 (75%) to our battery and end up with about 25(heat and lead-foot) units going into locomotion. So our back-of-the-napkin wheel-to-wheel efficiency for our EV is 25%

But lets do the same thing for an IC car. an IC engine is only about 20% efficient. Ouch. So IC already loses and we haven't even started with Wheel-to-wheel. We haven't extracted the oil, refined the gas (88% efficient), or transported it to a gas station. So yes, IC loses big on CO2 emissions. Add up the fact that power is increasingly generated by multiple methods and IC loses even more.

So no. saying that EVs are no cleaner than IC vehicles is generally not true. It you are told so you are either being lied to or the person doing the telling has not thought it through.

No, it's not the savior of the environment alone, but IC has about 100 years of massive R&D that EV does not. With increased market penetration, EV has a lot of room to grow while IC is pretty refined already. "Clean energy" (a silly term) is also creating more jobs each year since 2013 than coal and gas combined, so the sentiment of saving jobs by shunning EVs and clean energy is pretty silly.

We're in the early stages. If you want a torque monster and you want to be an early-adopter to some tech that has less of an impact on the environment and you can afford a new car, you can't do much better than buying an EV. If you don't want one, you're not a jerk because of it, but it is the future and it is "good" in the sense of our economy and environment. So cool it with the mis-information and do the math.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by jcstokes on 08/08/17 at 03:20:46

Google Roper Steam Motorcycle and also Camille Jenatzy.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/08/17 at 16:30:06

Lockeclone,If your looking to find a way to be a Torque Monster ,and still protect the plant ,that tech was developed over 100 years ago .Steam driven cars were around that produced 1000 ft/lbs of torque,set ground speed records of 127 mph and would even today pass Calif. emission standards . Check out steam autos.Doble seres E, 5000 + lbs,top speed approaching 120mph, 0-70mph in 10 sec.1500 mile range on 24 gals of water, Boiler fired on a variety of fuels (often kerosene) with avg. mileage for the day(1927).I can't even imagine what could be done with weight reduction, boiler/engine efficiency, and modern fuels ,etc.,that we have today. These autos had no clutch or gearbox and at 70 mph (@900 rpm) ran very quite.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by LockeClone on 08/08/17 at 19:17:52

Potentially very cool, but you can't exactly point me to my local steam car dealer...

Also one technology being a good thing doesn't stop another technology from being a good thing. I've go no beef with steam, though I'm a bit ignorant towards the tech, I'd imagine there are other strings attached as none of these three techs are a magic bullet.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by LockeClone on 08/08/17 at 20:49:26

Your comments about steam cars sent me down a research hole. Here's what I found if anyone cares:

Steam power is fairly advanced and still in wide usage, but it's a very wide category, so getting relative efficiencies for small vehicles is a shot in the dark. I read credible-sounding comments that ran the gambit, from ~10% for smaller vehicles to almost 95% for large turbine systems that use superheated steam.

I still think EVs make a lot more sense for small consumer vehicles due to the maintenance that seems to be fairly inherent in steam tech, and due to the losses incurred because of material science and mass.

Basically, the most efficient steam technology must be of a certain size, running at a certain speed, pressure and temperature to maximize your efficiencies to the point of making sense.

Think of it this way: What happens when an abnormally huge human is born (like Andre The giant)? They have health problems. Or why, the more massive an animal is, the larger their supporting bone structure has to be?

Follow me here, because this gets even drier but it's cool stuff: When you increase the size of something in 3 dimensions, the surface area increases to the power of 2 and the mass increases to the power of 3. Heat loss from a steam system is happening on the surface areas while energy storage is happening in three dimensions. Therefore, a more massive system stores energy more efficiently, and minimizing heat loss is the name of the game with steam systems.

More pressure and more heat are also better at transferring efficient steam energy. because the hotter the steam is, the larger its volume. You can probably see where I'm going here. You can only get so large and so hot/pressurized before you start butting up against the limits of material science. You also carbonize most oils long before steam reaches it's optimal conditions. A car without it's lubricants = no bueno.

Then, to add on top of all this, steam is external combustion meaning you put energy into liquid to be used on-demand later. To get that "battery" to its optimal parameters, it either takes time, or you use less efficient methods like flash boiling to get the job done. If we're going to beat the efficiency of IC engines, we really can't be flash boiling, so that leaves a more storage-oriented boiler with a secondary chamber to massively heat up the steam right before it's used and a system like that is quite efficient, but it's large and is only efficient when used for long hauls.

So, my conclusion, after knowing next-to-nothing and having spent a little while on google: is that modern steam actually could be a pretty viable, efficient mode of transportation for large vehicles like semi trucks or ships who will maximize the efficiency of their systems by being large and running their external combustion chambers for a very long time. It's also conceivable that these fleets would be well-maintained and looked after negating the extra maintenance that steam engines require.

I'm not a convert, by any means. I don't see these techs, even developed much further as better than EV is already proving to be, but I know people who have had to deal with a fleet of natural gas trucks that can barely reach highway speeds and break down virtually all the time. Show me a hill that a steam piston or electric motor can't push a vehicle up and I'll go get my climbing gear because it's probably a cliff.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by batman on 08/09/17 at 21:27:11

LockeClone , While larger vehicles such as trucks and double decker bus used larger steam plants ,you have been mistaken in thinking smaller autos would not be possible. Flash boilers were used in the Doble cars ,that is why they could be started and driven off in 30 seconds and there is no steam storage and the steam is superheated,it doesn't increase in volume ,only pressure and temperature . Small steam power plants can and were built ,check out the Besler airplane ,the first an only steam powered airplane (1933) two cylinder -150 hp 10 gallons of water ,was sufficient for a 400 mile flight.If they could make one that powerful and light in 1933 what could we do with modern materials?How many EV cars could travel 400 miles be refueled quickly and be off again?How hard would it be to convert any gas station to supply fuel and distilled(boiler) water ?how many charging stations will have to be built for EV's and at what cost?

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by LockeClone on 08/10/17 at 00:51:25

I briefly covered efficiency problems with flash boiling in my post, though I couldn't find hard numbers on the exact loss.

So we're less efficient than EV, nobody is making or developing them currently, you're still burning fossil fuel, and maintainance is much more costly/intensive.

I'm not against it. Go build it and prove me wrong! But EV has already proven itself and continues to improve greatly every year.

Roatery and semi-turbine tech is very cool too. Many companies have made several promising designs on paper and even some moving prototypes... But they can't seem to get them to market... Steam seems to be the same way. Prove me wrong, but until then IC is King and EV is the young prince and unless another claimant comes forward with some serious evidence that they're better (of which there isn't) those techs are SOL.

Title: Re: No gas cars past 2040
Post by oldNslow on 08/11/17 at 19:01:47

http://elmtreeforge.blogspot.com/2017/08/well-thats-unwelcome-connection-to.html

fossil fuels may or may not last forever. But some things will. Like the arrogance, stupidity, greed and hypocrisy of our wise and benevolent leaders.

I'll be pretty far along into geezerhood by 2040 - assuming I'm even still around - and I've already seen as much of Europe as I care to, so it's no skin off my a*s, but IMHO this is a really stupid idea.

Besides, by 2040 the countries contemplating this might very well be Islamic Utopias. And them boys aren't much into environmental conservation anyway. Not to mention that their homelands have got a sh*t load of oil.