|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> wolverine! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1499966047 Message started by batman on 07/13/17 at 10:14:06 |
|
Title: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/13/17 at 10:14:06 We know 90% of wear occurs due to cold startup ,I'm wondering if something like this couldn't be adapted for use on our bikes.www.Wolverineheater .com/model4-5/4.5.htm WE should be able to place it on the bottom of the case ,near the oil drain plug (haven't looked) and run the cord aft and up to a frame mounted plug socket ,( like you might use to hook up trailer lights?)so the cord could be removed just before startup? |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/13/17 at 10:54:58 If a savage can make 150,000 miles without having to prevent wear, I'm not gonna sweat it. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/13/17 at 11:57:30 JOG your in the state of Texhot you may not feel the need to use it but us "snow birds" may take advantage ( it's the hottest part of the day here 3pm and the temp is only 67 , my bike's in the garage at about 55) |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by verslagen1 on 07/13/17 at 12:08:45 I think you're confusing 'cold start' with 'no oil pressure start' |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by Dave on 07/13/17 at 12:09:49 If we aren't in an Arctic Zone......I don't believe the cold temperature that causes the wear in a "cold" start. It is the lack of oil pressure and the lack of an thick oil coating on the bearings/piston/cylinder/cam/rockers. (Although I will concede that the folks that ride in very cold weather likely have some pretty thick oil to get flowing - but some of us just don't feel the need to go riding when the temperature drops below 50!) When you shut off a hot engine the oil is thin and fluid, and most of the oil flows off the engine parts and drains to the sump - and what is left behind is a very thin oil film. The Savage engine has roller and ball bearings, and those can get by with very little oil at the cold start. The piston/cylinder/rings and cam/rockers are likely where the most wear occurs during startup in the Savage engine. I don't ride in sub-zero....so I don't see any need for an oil heater. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by SALB on 07/13/17 at 12:36:03 Interesting idea, but I would think it would be easier to switch to a 5W-40 oil and add redline if needed. Personally, I find it starts fine down to the mid 40s, at which point I can't find gloves thin enough to operate the controls and still keep my hands warm. :P |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/13/17 at 13:10:15 I don't believe pressure is the problem,the fact that cold oil doesn't flow as readily as warm oil is.the reason we drive the bike without going to wide open throttle for the first few miles after a cold start isn't because we don't have pressure but to give the oil a chance to warm because that provides better flow and a thicker film between the parts. it would seem to me that warm oil would provide more lubrication ,sooner ,to both the valve train and the piston /rings /cylinder walls ,or am I crazy ?Running one of these heaters on a lamp timer to turn on 8 hours before your intend start would cost less than4 cents a day /14.00 a year .the closer to running temp (about 270) the faster it warms and the less wear .(no I don't own stock in the company :)) |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by SALB on 07/13/17 at 15:26:57 Through the magic of modern science and viscosity improvers, oils with a low winter weight, like 5W-40 flow thinner when cold. http://www.belray.com/what-exactly-do-multi-visc-designations-mean The two things that contribute to cold start wear are the milliseconds that there is no pressure in the bearings (like the cam) and the few minutes it takes for the metal to expand and clearances to come into spec. Anyone who has listened to a diesel started in sub zero temps can relate. As for how much that heater would bring up the temp. of the whole engine? :-/ |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by Serowbot on 07/13/17 at 16:13:01 That's an expensive heating pad... :o How 'bout one of these?... $14 at Wallmart https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sunbeam-Heating-Pad/25479730?action=product_interest&action_type=title&beacon_version=1.0.2&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&client_guid=224492cd-d4b4-4ee8-8f77-2022c2b1c8b1&config_id=106&customer_id_enc&findingMethod=p13n&guid=224492cd-d4b4-4ee8-8f77-2022c2b1c8b1&item_id=25479730&parent_anchor_item_id=19525518&parent_item_id=19525518&placement_id=irs-106-m3&reporter=recommendations&source=new_site&strategy=PWBAB&visitor_id=UnmX-eqMVpMa9OFHdktFDc http://https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/2605b8b3-6417-4390-b3db-32bed58f6b51_1.3569ef86d6080ebdf72249f4b278e9fb.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/13/17 at 17:24:09 All I can say is the product comes from a company that gives it a two year warranty, a mounting kit ,online instructions for mounting and is sized to heat 1.9 liters of oil . Our bike holds 2.4 with a filter change,1.8 without, so I assume the case holds in the area of 1.8 at rest.I donit know if anyone needs/wants one but I thought members should be aware that they exist.( anyone running a snowmobile?) |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/13/17 at 18:06:12 Multigrade oils start off cold at the low viscosity and the polymeric chains grow as it warms. Super cold may screw it up, I'd. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by DieselBob on 07/13/17 at 20:26:05 Better than the heating pad would be a pre-oiler. From my flying days, they are the salvation of the Pratt & Whitney radial. http://www.oilamatic.com/engine-tlc.htm |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by piedmontbuckeye on 07/14/17 at 07:39:41 I personally like to ride anytime the temp is above 35 in the morning. I've had three times when my bike wouldn't start. Normally runs and starts great, but not when below 40. I'm in South Carolina. Years ago, I used to use a small space heater under my bike about an hour or two before startup in the morning. Worked great back then! |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by AlexW on 07/14/17 at 09:21:03 686B687C6A626C090 wrote:
Put on a pair of neoprene shop gloves under your motorcycle gloves. Adds 5 degrees or so to the bottom end of your comfort zone, and has no meaningful impact on hand mobility. Also has the added benefit of making non-waterproof gloves functionally waterproof - the gloves will get wet, but your hands won't. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by SALB on 07/14/17 at 13:55:15 033A3627363D233C3F530 wrote:
Like this? https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24-046 |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/14/17 at 16:20:53 Leather Snowmobile mittens with zip up gauntlets.(you don't need fingered gloves to ride a motorcycle) wind can't move between your fingers or up the arms of your jacket. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/15/17 at 17:57:30 WELL IT'S TIME TO GET BACK ON TOPIC! The Golden Rule for oil pressure is 10 psi for every 1000 rpm, and our oil pumps are sized to do it. Once that pressure is produced ,pressure fails to be a factor. The problem is OIL ,There is no oil on the face of the earth that provides proper lubrication at cold startup! While it's true that your oil thickens as it reaches temperature ,it's also true that it thickens when it gets cold, (can't start your bike on a really cold day? it's not because your coolant or your gas froze)and cold oil doesn't flow as readily through the small passages in your motor. The fact is you have fuel, but the oil flow either doesn't seal the rings or the drag from the cold oil puts more load on the battery( due to the oil pump or the starter having to work harder )and slows cranking speed,it affects compression ,and draws more amps from the battery which may drop voltage low (causing spark failure) so that it doesn't start.Cold oil doesn't produce as thick a film layer between moving parts until it warns. If your bike is in Florida on a 75 degree day it still has to heat the oil nearly 200 degrees before the motor is at full operating temperature and during this time is when the wear occurs .But if you heated the oil ,on a cold day, the bike would start and you might not even have to use the choke.preoilers are probably a waste of money,your oil pump is gear driven,which means it's a positive displacement pump,when the pump stops flow stops ,and shouldn't return to the oil sump ,(your pump doesn't run backward)oil in the passages stays there ,oil can drip off the piston and cylinder ,but the cam lobes are setting in a "tub " of oil,and this is where we fear the most damage. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by Dave on 07/17/17 at 04:21:39 27243128242B717D450 wrote:
Who says?.....small block Chevy drag racers? Unless you can provide reliable source for this statement - I don't feel you should keep posting this as being applicable to the Savage. I don't believe this 10 psi rule of thumb is applicable to an engine with roller and ball bearings....they don't need pressure - they just need a small amount of flow to keep them lubed. The only "plain" bearings in the engine is the cam bearings....and they only fail when somebody runs their idle speed too low and there is almost no oil pressure or flow. Bearing failures are not an issue on the Savage if the oil level is maintained and the idle speed is not too low (even for those folks who ride in cold climates). ] 4C4F5A434F401A162E0 wrote:
Gasoline doesn't vaporize well in cold temperatures....and it is even worse for E10. The lead acid battery also loses significant power in cold temperatures. And the residual oil layer between moving parts may not be "thick" in dimension......it is thick in "viscosity" and does create additional drag during a "cold" start. This is not much of an issue for the ball and roller bearings in the Savage engine - but the piston/cylinder/rings do have a significant drag when the residual oil is cold and viscous. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by ohiomoto on 07/17/17 at 06:34:20 I don't know what psi we need at the top end, but along the lines of what Dave said... 2-stroke lower end bearings (main, lower and upper rod) are lubed with a blast of pre-mix every other stroke. That mixture is pressurized for a very brief instant before the intake ports are exposed to bring it into the combustion chamber. 2-strokes run roller bearings at high RPMs with very little lubrication. Our real concern is the cam bearings. Carry on. :) |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by Ruttly on 07/17/17 at 07:49:33 There is no set equations for oil pressure from engine to engine ! You can not use what works on a chevy 350 on a Savage. There are to many variables between engines as in number of cylinders, types of bearing,types of pumps & design of engine. It just doesn't work that way. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by batman on 07/17/17 at 15:44:42 The source of my oil pressure golden rule was in fact car based ,(my bad),but no matter what our oil pressure is ,the rest of what I said about oil flow is none the less true. |
|
Title: Re: wolverine! Post by Ruttly on 07/17/17 at 18:58:49 When building racing V8s a lot of builders would rather a high volume pump with a adjustable pressure relief to control the pressure, too high a pressure will unseat crank & rod bearings and cause them to spin. High volume is better than a too high of a pressure. Oil pumps are designed for a specific needs / engines , amounts of volume to supply specific number of journals/bearings to be fed at a intended pressure to enough at idle/low rpm and too almost too much at high rpms.If I build another Savage engine then I will investigate increasing low rpm supply to head without starving the lower end. Not sure if anyone here has tried this yet , but sounds like fun to me. R & D is funnest when it hasn't been tried before ! |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |