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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> new rings? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1498510750 Message started by savageguy1 on 06/26/17 at 13:59:10 |
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Title: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/26/17 at 13:59:10 I believe I need new piston rings , but I am told that I need to hone the cylinder to get the scratches out also, but cannot find any oversize rings to fit the piston after honing. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/26/17 at 14:08:37 also my header bolts broke while I was riding, I was told that that may have cause the rings to fry. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/26/17 at 14:24:19 do you guys have any suggestions? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by gizzo on 06/26/17 at 14:54:16 honing and boring are 2 different things. if you only hone the cylinder you will need the same size rings as you took out. reboring, you'll need oversize rings. too bad about thebroken bolts. good luck getting them out. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/17 at 14:56:54 The piston needs to have a tight fit on the cylinder. She's a big lady with a short skirt, something gonna be exposed if she tips even a little bit. If you need over sized rings, you gonna need an over sized piston. You need to pull the piston and cylinder to measure. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Papa Bear on 06/26/17 at 15:00:17 71606F65606673687172010 wrote:
A second opinion. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by 1st2know on 06/26/17 at 17:02:44 4E5F505A5F594C574E4D3E0 wrote:
Why do you think you need new rings? Have you found pieces of the piston rings in the oil? How many miles on the engine? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/26/17 at 17:31:15 1st2Know , has a point ,why do you think you need rings ? If you don't have lots of miles on the bike. Having broken the bolts on the exhaust I think it is more likely that you warped the exhaust valves ,if you have a lack of compression .Tell us your mileage, and what you were doing ,and if you drove after the exhaust bolts broke. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Armen on 06/26/17 at 19:46:52 Top end diagnostics is pretty straightforward, but requires some specialized tools and experience. I start by looking at all the parts. Look at the rings for wear/break-in patterns. Look for even wear on the ring face, especially the middle ring. If you only see a little bit of wear on the face of the middle ring, prob the motor wasn't broken in properly. Check out the piston between the ring lands. There should be minimal crud between the top and middle ring lands, and almost non between the middle and oil ring lands. With a micrometer, measure the piston skirt near the bottom. Take a few measurements. With a dial bore gauge, measure the cylinder-top, middle, and bottom. Check for out-of-round at each point by making multiple measurements at each depth. Compare the piston diameter with the cylinder diameter. The manual will have wear specs. Usually the rings can deal with taper in the bore better than they can deal with out-of-round. Obviously, straight and round is the best. On the race bikes, I make up top and bottom torque plates that can be bolted to using the stock cylinder bolts. With these plates in place, I'll measure the cylinder to get a more accurate read with the cylinder distorted by it's clamping forces. I like to run bikes with piston to wall at the tight end of the range. This makes for a cooler running, quieter motor. But it also means you are more likely to seize if you don't play nice. On my R65, the piston-to-wall is .0008". As in, less than a thousandth of an inch. I had to buy the cylinder a few drinks to get the piston in. Often ring trouble can be traced to improper break-in. My ritual: Use a break-in oil in the bottom end. Proper amount.. There aren't too many out there. Dumb, petroleum oil. Honda, Amsoil, and Motul make oils suitable for break in. Hone the cylinder using a Flex Hone, honing oil, and the proper technique. After honing, thoroughly wash the inside of the cylinder using hot soapy water. Assemble the rings on the piston dry. Put a dot of oil on the piston skirt. Resist the urge to slather oil all over. Once the motor is assembled and the valves adjusted, put a fan in front of the motor. Start it up and hold to 2, 000 RPMs for about 30 seconds. There will prob be some smoke coming out of the exhaust, and it'll decrease quickly. After 30 seconds at 2K, hop on the bike and ride. Vary the revs. Go for the mid range, not lugging, or revving the nuts off the bike. Don't hold steady throttle openings, and don't sit in traffic. By 100 miles, the rings are either broken in or never will be. The goal here is to use the cross hatch from the honing to scuff the rings in. If you oil up everything, or take it too easy, the rings never have a chance to get up close and personal with the cylinder wall. YMMV, but this works for me. NB: the nice thing about using a used barrel for a big bore, is that it has probably distorted all that it ever will, and will stay rounder and straighter than a new one. Again, doing the stone (not the bead honing) honing with a torque plate helps. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/26/17 at 20:32:59 Go visit some machine shops, and if there is a small engine repair shop, talk to some people. Get prices for inspecting the piston and cylinder. Prices for honing, |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/27/17 at 16:50:21 28k on the engine, no bits in the oil but I have no power, I was riding down the interstate about 75mph, then I heard a noise and pulled over saw the broken bolts it was sprinkleing so I limped to a hotel (4 miles) and had it trailered in the morning. fixed the bolts and later the valves sounded really bad, so I adjusted them and rode around, felt like I kept slowly losing power and then I could only reach 45 and I knew I had an issue. Today I got to the cylinder and measured the rings ( I don't have the tools yet to measure the wall) they where fine. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/27/17 at 17:21:42 Have you checked the cam chain? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/28/17 at 06:35:56 yes its fine did the mod to it as soon as I got the bike, also the carb is very clean. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/28/17 at 19:33:48 You need to check the valves! There are only two ways to lose power (compression ) bad rings ( not with only 28,000 on the motor) or valves not seating , more likely do to the exhaust coming loose, because it allowed cold outside air to be drawn it the exhaust port which hit your hot exhaust valves causing them to warp and not seat properly( " later the valves sounded really bad " ) Your words ,not mine! I would strongly doubt there 's any damage to the piston or the rings ,they deal with changes in temp all the time(cold intake mix -hot combustion/exhaust gases)You have the head off turn it up-side-down(sparkplug installed) and fill it with water ,the valves are closed ,they should hold,if they don't you've found your problem!I'm betting you'll see water running out the exhaust port. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/29/17 at 07:32:33 7869666C696F7A61787B080 wrote:
About what? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/29/17 at 07:39:55 my valves where bad |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/29/17 at 07:41:48 Just exhaust? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/29/17 at 08:05:49 yep |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/29/17 at 13:59:48 nvm I did the test wrong, the valves turned out fine when I did it right I am completely lost on what is wrong. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by ero4444 on 06/29/17 at 14:09:27 back up a minute! did you replace the original petcock with Raptor yet? a workaround, is to turn the original petcock to PRIme. if petcock is your problems, then it is a little unusual for it to present itself as just reducing power. Also it tends to happen sooner than 28K miles. Mine would silently die completely at highway speed, at 7-8 years old, at about 3000 miles. let us know. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/29/17 at 17:15:24 Yes its a raptor , with a k&n air filter and ryca reverse cone muffler. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by 1st2know on 06/29/17 at 18:42:36 Check for an obstructed exhaust. Small animals tend to crawl in to the exhaust because it's nice in there (for a while, anyway). |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 08:56:27 I let water sit for a couple of hours and the leakage was very slow, do I need to lap the valves? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/30/17 at 09:03:02 I use gasoline. Whatever, you know it's leaking. I know what the costs are for failing to get it right. It's expensive and a hassle to get in there. I let experienced professionals decide. A machine shop or a mechanic that does top end work all the time will have a much better ability to evaluate the situation and recommend the best course of action. Sure would suck to get it almost right, ride a few months and start acting up. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 09:15:10 look , I called my nearest shop and they said it would be 144 for lapping, new valves would be cheaper. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/30/17 at 09:59:34 No idea how much damage exists. If you can lap them yourself, that's a win, IF the lips aren't too thin, seats okay. Surely a mechanic or machinist would look at it and tell you. I'm not a newbie. I have lots of tools and I've been in several engines, but nobody ever showed me the things to watch for when doing valves. Just slapping new ones in on worn seats is probably not a sure thing. Lapping old ones ? The lip of a valve that is thin can hold heat and cause preignition. That's a pricey place. I had four valves installed and seated for less. The nearest place might not be your best bet. Walk in with the head, in a few places. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/30/17 at 12:46:25 You have to pull the valves to check them,if they warped ,where ? The stems? or nearer the valves faces ?If the their not straight , lapping may not cut it, you may need to replace them ,and maybe new guides and seals as well as lapping. The valves parts are cheap, I wouldn't risk damaging the head it's not. A slow leak at 14.7 lbs could be much worse at compression/iginition pressures!I'd tend to do it right rather than having to do it twice. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 13:54:25 but would I loose power and accel/ top speed from the valves? would timing cause that? |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 13:55:42 And when it was together and I adjusted the valves on the exhaust, It only got worse. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/30/17 at 13:59:03 I'm always suspicious of what I have done if I touch something and it gets worse. Since it leaks on the bench, it's definitely valves. The cam isn't holding anything open. The questions you're asking indicate less experience than would be desirable to bet on solving the problem. Just having a dial caliper and a really flat surface would help you out. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 15:08:18 no, I do not have much experience , but I am not going to take it to a shop , because the only shop that is around, knows it its the only one, and charges likewise. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 06/30/17 at 15:13:18 so I talked over the phone to a mechanic at a different shop and he says that as slow as the leakage is I would not lose that much power I would still have 85% of the power at least, and that on some Suzuki 4 wheeler he worked on the rectifier cause the sputtering and no power problem (I have no Idea how that could be the problem) but I am going to try a compression test after I get it back together. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by gizzo on 06/30/17 at 15:38:19 Hey savageguy. If your valves are taking several hours to pass a combustion chamber of water (or fuel, whatever) the valves are not the cause of this particular problem. I'm not saying they might not need attention, but if your engine starts and runs fine for a bit then later on starts breaking down, the valves are doing their job adequately. A little weep through the valve seat shows it's not a perfect seal but neither is it going to cause the problems you're having. I have no idea why the rectifier would cause that problem either but when mine gets wet my bike runs like a pile o crap. It's worth looking into. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/30/17 at 18:04:08 A valve warps because of a difference it temp. when he had the problem he drovethe bike 4 miles ,during the intake stroke ,the valve overlap has the intake and the exhaust valves open at the same time the piston moving down draws in fuel and cold outside air due to the exhaust pipe not be connected. this is when the damage (warping of the valves) occurred.When bench testing the valves show only a slight leak,but they are at room temp. When he ran the motor afterward the bike ran better cold,but as the motor heated up power was lost due to the side of the valve facing the combustion chamber expanding at a faster (normal) rate than the side the exhaust port faces ,because the cold air has hardened that side ,the warp then increases and combustion pressure falls. (or maybe I'm just full of it but I'm not as bad as the guys that told you ,you needed rings or that it was the rec-dum fire).Re assemble the bike if you wish but I think you'll find it runs the same as it did before you took it apart. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/30/17 at 18:45:54 The gasket, sealer, time, the Chance of having to do it all again, Plus Actually Fix it the next time, you better be real sure it's gonna work or you Could drop a valve and destroy the engine, or just go back in. Either answer is to be avoided. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/30/17 at 21:07:08 WORD! |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 06/30/17 at 21:35:33 Gizzo ,"If you can't fix it with a hammer it must be an electrical problem" :) You might try looking at the wiring coming out of the left side cover ,the pickup coil and the alternator wires run parallel to each other ,if the insulation has broken down on the alternator wires (100 volts AC) it could cause inductance in the coil pickup circuit ,with the belt tossing water at in the rain,or it could be your spark plug wire. A sunny day and a well aimed garden hose might be a good test probe. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Armen on 07/01/17 at 04:02:05 Not clear to me. Is the head off the bike? If so, remove the valves. You can make a valve spring compressor with a C clamp and a piece of pipe or PVC. Remove the valves and look at the wear pattern on the faces. Then use some light lapping compound, and lap the valves. Look again. Take a black Sharpie and ink up the contact areas of the valve and seat faces. Using a small amount of light compound, lap the valves again. At that point, it makes sense to post some pics of the were patterns on the valve and seat faces. One of my rules in life is that if it takes longer to talk about something than to do it, you should probably just do it. Practice and exercise called the "Two Handed Push", whereby you push away the keyboard and actually some work ;) |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 07/01/17 at 16:00:32 I'd listen to Armen ,and while you have the valves out find a level surface and roll the valve stems across it with a light behind and check for warped stems.Replacing the exhaust valves ,guides and seals would cost less than $200 in parts, dropping a valve would ruin the head and valves ,maybe the piston dome and cylinder ,costing 5-7 times that /or looking for a replacement motor$1500? If you pull the valves be sure to remove any burrs from the edges of the groves the keepers set in before pulling the valves stems out of the valve guides to avoid damage to the guides as they may not need replacement ,that would save you the labor and about $50 in parts. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Dave on 07/03/17 at 03:51:45 If you mail the head to me - I will pull the valves for you and take a look and let you know what is going on. If the valve are in poor shape - they will deteriorate quickly and you won't get many miles of use. The intake valves seldom have any issues - the exhaust valves can last a long time if the engine was running with a good fuel mixtures and never abused. Long term storage can rust the valves and create pits if the exhaust valves were open when the bike was parked....and a broken cam chain can bend or break valves. I can sell you a complete head cheaper than your shop wanted for lapping your valves. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1481806563 |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/04/17 at 12:13:06 I took a look at the rockers and my cam this is what happenedhttp://https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f5e7890940&view=att&th=15d0f0271a02c60b&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=f_j4pydilz0&zw http://https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f5e7890940&view=att&th=15d0f0425d0fcc3c&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=f_j4pyfx490&zw |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/04/17 at 12:13:38 there is huge lip on the rocker faces. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/04/17 at 12:15:51 would this cause power loss? and apparently I put car oil in my bike |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/04/17 at 13:08:52 the pic of the rockers doesnt show up http://https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f5e7890940&view=att&th=15d0f37e930f2dd3&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=f_j4q0gme90&zw |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/17 at 17:07:35 3F2E212B2E283D263F3C4F0 wrote:
What oil did you use? How many miles have you run it? And Yes,, |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/04/17 at 17:09:12 28k, and castrol automotive oil |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/17 at 17:47:33 I don't know anything about your oil, except it doesn't ring a bell. If it's recommended, it's been talked about in here. The valve train on a Savage is old engine design. Way Pre Catalytic Converter, and oils had ZDDP. Not so much today. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 07/04/17 at 18:43:25 If you have wear on the rocker arms you need to look at the cam lobes they may also be worn or pitted,and I'd still be pulling the exhaust valves to see if they're damaged. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/17 at 18:48:17 Once you have done all that, unless it's really good, I think you'd be ahead to buy Dave's head. That don't look right... |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 07/04/17 at 19:31:30 JOG ,You do have a way with words1 |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by savageguy1 on 07/05/17 at 07:17:55 Dave wants 380 for the head, new rockers are 100 and valves are 110, that's if I don't use the rockers I have and hardweld them, and if I don't lap the valves or the guides are bent. I have to get a tool for the valves so I will get working on that |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Armen on 07/05/17 at 13:58:27 So, how about this plan? Buy Dave's head Sell yours on Ebay for a few bucks Take the time you would have spent trying to polish a turd, work a couple of evenings, make back the difference between Dave's nice parts and your head, and all the parts and tools you'd buy, and actually ride your bike this summer ;D |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by Dave on 07/05/17 at 14:58:48 Maybe my sales listing isn't real clear. It is ready to bolt on and use. It has a good cam and rockers, new valve seals, new sealing washers, a new compression release shaft seal, new oil valley O-ring, and all hardware is freshly plated. The seats were freshened up by Bill Moeller at Boretech and he inspected the valves and lapped them into the seats. |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by batman on 07/05/17 at 17:35:57 Which means it's worth about 3 times what he's asking ! (I'd snap that up in a hurry if I were you) |
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Title: Re: new rings? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/17 at 17:49:17 The odds of winning without paying for professional help or spending within pennies of what you'd spend buying Dave's head are slim. |
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