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Message started by B-Will on 06/05/17 at 11:39:50

Title: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/05/17 at 11:39:50

I have a real mystery here I could use some advice on. I recently acquired a friends Savage that had been dormant for three years. I'm having a particular issue that I haven't been able to solve.

Problem: After running for about 10 minutes, my bike dies without constantly engaging the throttle to keep the RPMs up. From a cold start, it runs fine. I can start it without any choke with no problem.

Workaround: If I keep the choke 1/2 way out, and manually keep the throttle up a bit, it will stay running. I'm a new motorcyclist, so the throttle part is a bit more then my coordination is capable of :o. So, I'd like to get her fixed.

Bike Details:
- 1996 Suzuki Savage LS650
- Friend had added an aftermark muffler of some sort to make it louder
- Bike was sitting for about 3 years gathering dirt dobber nests before I started bringing it back to life.

Things I've done bringing this bike back to life:
- New spark plug
- New battery
- Oil change w/ new filter
- Power washed gas tank, air dried w/ wife's blow dryer (she was thrilled), refilled with fresh gas
- New fuel line from petc0ck to carb
- Carb lovin: New main jet, idle jet (the little one next to the main jet that you access via the float bowl), new needle value, new float bowl gasket, good carb cleaning w/ carb cleaner
- Swapped stock petc0ck with the Yamaha raptor recommended by this forum, capped carb vacuum plug w/ rubber cap from auto parts store
- New air filter

Also, I noticed quite a bit of fuel/oil in the air box. I drained it by using both the drain plug as well as my wife's turkey baster (I'll have to buy her a new one I suppose 8-)). However, the oil was dark and old looking rather than the newer clean oil I just added. It was definitely a mix of oil and fuel. Could be related, may not be.

I have an ignition coil on order and that's my next step. Any and all advice is welcome!

Thanks!
Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/17 at 12:04:39

Idle speed and mixture should be adjusted to the correct rpm after warm up.

Error on the high side if you have to, low rpm = low oil pressure = death.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/05/17 at 13:36:29

Avoid running it on the sidestand. The high end of the cam starves for oil.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by batman on 06/05/17 at 15:38:12

If the bike is running ,you don't need a new coil! but you might need a new air filter,if the reason you changed to a raptor was because the stock petcock leaked fuel ,there is only two places it could go 1) into the cylinder to the motor oil sump. 2) out the carb through the filter into the air box ,you drained the air box ,but the filter could be wet or ruined .You don't have a stock muffler ,you need to find out what it is ,ask the PO.You replaced the jets ,stock or larger? what size are they ? If their stock with an after market muffler you could be trying to run the bike extremely lean,and it won't run after pushing in the choke.WE need more info . what is your elevation? new needle valve ? what needle ? jet n. ,float level n., or fuel mix n.?

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/05/17 at 19:41:56

7C7F6A737F702A261E0 wrote:

The air filter was wet. I had ran the engine for a bit, but before I changed the petcock. Sounds like that may have been the cause.

The jets I used were stock OEM replacements--a 145 for the main jet and whatever the oem replacement is for the idle jet. I used a K & L carb kit that had the needle valve. As far as elevation, I'm in East Texas, so just a few hundred feet above sea level.

If this is a carb tuning issue and not an ignition coil issue, sounds like I need to make changes so the mix is more lean? Do I have that right? Do I use different jets to accomplish that?

Thanks for the help guys!
Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by batman on 06/05/17 at 21:33:08

Your running lean ,you need to tune your fuel screw to get the highest idle ,if the screw is out past 2 1/2 turns you need to go from the stock 52.5 to a 55 jet. You should also do the spacer mod ,2 or 3 steel #4 machine washers .and a larger main jet a150 ,152.5 or155 due to your elevation ( the closer to sea level -the larger the jets needed ,due to the air being denser .)I'd start with the stock idle jet ,the spacer mod and the 150 main ,that should get the bike running , you could fine tune from there.the bike is tuned lean from the factory to pass emission tests,your after market muffler makes the bike run even leaner ,as does your low elevation.You should read through the technical section for how to do these.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/05/17 at 22:25:31

Where in East Texas are you? I'm just north of Longview.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/06/17 at 04:25:35

5556435A5659030F370 wrote:

Thanks Batman I'll give it a shot and let you know.

Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/06/17 at 04:26:07

5E4147405D5A6B5B6B53414D06340 wrote:

Where in East Texas are you? I'm just north of Longview.

Justin I'm in Sulphur Springs.

Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by bradyGOAT on 06/06/17 at 06:55:02

@B-Will,

Good luck, I have a similar issue (although seemingly not as bad). After Laconia I'm gonna give this procedure a shot. Let us know how it goes for you

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/17 at 06:57:53

I get to Quitman pretty regularly. Probably gonna be there today. .

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/06/17 at 19:47:26

67647168646B313D050 wrote:

So I get home from work all excited to try out some of these suggestions. I figured I'd start with accessing the air fuel mix screw and see what I can do with that. I drill into the air/fuel screw brass cap, remove it with a little convincing, then use my handy shop vac to clean up the brass shavings. Phase 1 of Operation Suzuki Resurrection complete. After reviewing the forum for the 15th time to make sure I understand the procedure, I roll the bike out to the driveway and fire it up to start my idle mix screw adjustments. I turn the screw 1/2 with no affect. Next, I keep turning in 1/4 increments with a 20 second pause listening for any hint of RPM fluctuation. No change. Then the bike sputters and dies. Thinking I may have turned the screw too much, I reset it to the original setting and try to start the bike with no luck (Fast forward a couple hours later--I later realized I made a total newb mistake and had my fuel petcock in the off position and the bike probably died when the bowl emptied).

...then something very very weird happened....

I try to start the bike one more time and there is no response--like the battery is completely dead. Except, and this is the weird part, the green neutral light is still on. However, the headlights, blinkers, and horn are all inop. Completely dumbfounded and grasping at straws, I try to jump the bike from my truck with no luck. I removed the seat and wiggle wires with no luck. She's dead, except for the green neutral light.

...then it gets weirder...

I'm standing there straddling the bike, pushing the ignition thumb switch in and out, kind of in a daze and in total disbelief. I stop pushing in the thumb switch and about a second later the headlights turn on, the blinker starts blinking (I had that switch engaged while I was fooling with it), then they all shut off again.

So now I'm wondering if I need to trailer this thing to the Suzuki dealership or to my local priest.

Very frustrating. :-/

Morning Update: Looking at the wiring diagrams, the neutral indicator light and neutral switch use the frame ground coming from the battery whereas the rest of the stuff uses a second negative lead coming from the battery. That second negative lead's splice near the battery terminal is probably the culprit. I bet I brushed up against it last night causing momentary continuity when I was straddling the bike.

It makes sense the failure is in that area. The other day, I re-spliced the negative lead that serves as the frame ground after it came a part in my hands. The secondary negative lead's splice is probably in the same shape and needs attention as well.

I'll post an update as I learn more.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/07/17 at 06:12:28

Success! I was right. No demons, just a faulty splice. I played with the wires this morning and sure enough, there was an intermittent open in a splice that's coming off the secondary (smaller) negative battery lead. Looks like it's in as bad a shape as the other (larger) negative lead.

Wiggling that splice caused the rest of the circuit to energize turning the lights on. Happy to find out my bike is not possessed--just needs a little TLC.

I'll get that corrected and press on with the carb tuning.

Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by Rodger on 06/07/17 at 06:27:15

Congrats, B-Will!

Electrical problems can be a real bear, especially intermittent ones.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by batman on 06/07/17 at 07:06:23

B-will when I repair a wire I first solder ,tape,and use a product called liquid tape ,it can be found in outlets like lowes or Home depot,it's liquid rubber you paint over the tape which completely seals it from water etc. In 22yrs I've never had a problem ,even in hard rain storms at highway speeds. It can also be used to fill the back sides of connectors to prevent corrosion .

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/07/17 at 08:27:42

37342138343B616D550 wrote:

Cool I'll check it out. The splices that were used previously on the bike are pretty suspect. The one I've already repaired was severely corroded.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/07/17 at 19:11:34

Today was a good day. I re-soldiered the suspect connection, used some heat shrink as well as some liquid tape I picked up from Lowe's today during my lunch break (thanks Batman!). Crisis averted--electrical problem fixed.

Next step, I rolled the bike out onto the driveway and fired her up, showing my 8 yr old daughter how to adjust the air mix screw. To be honest, I'm not sure where I landed, but it's somewhere between 2.5 turns out and maximum "outness". I'm pretty sure I need to step up the idle jet at some point.

...However...

The bike ran great. I took it for a spin around my neighborhood to warm it up and returned to my driveway. After being warmed up, it tried to sputter and die (and not because I had the petcock in the wrong position like a dumb a$$), so I increases the idle speed screw ever slow slightly. She was purring like a kitten.

So off I went. She ran great. I finally got to take my first bike ride (I just passed my motorcycle safety course) and it was awesome! I never got over 35 mph, but that's ok. Baby steps ;D

Thanks Batman, Justin and others who gave some truly sage advice!

Barrett

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/23/17 at 11:27:00

Wanted to give an update on how things are going with the bike. After adjusting the idle air/fuel mix screw, as well as the idle itself, the bike is operational like I mentioned in my last post.

Since then, I've ridden on a couple 40 mile rides and have noticed a few things:

Sudden deceleration causes afterfires
The bike has to be at half-choke for a while to warm up. Once warmed up the choke can be removed.
Before the bike warms up, there is some hesitation on acceleration

So, the next things I'm going to do are to increase the idle jet to a 55, do the spacer mod on the needle jet, and up the main jet to a 150.

I'll post back here with in update on how it's going.

Thanks again for all the help!

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by SALB on 06/23/17 at 11:50:14

494A59594E5F5F5C424747424A46581C1D2B0 wrote:

Since then, I've ridden on a couple 40 mile rides and have noticed a few things:

Sudden deceleration causes afterfires
The bike has to be at half-choke for a while to warm up. Once warmed up the choke can be removed.
Before the bike warms up, there is some hesitation on acceleration

So, the next things I'm going to do are to increase the idle jet to a 55, do the spacer mod on the needle jet, and up the main jet to a 150.

Before you go tearing into the carb, try adjusting the mixture screw a little richer. Just make sure the screw isn't out more than a total of three turns from bottom, at which point, you'll need to go up a size on the pilot.

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by B-Will on 06/23/17 at 12:57:23

Will do SALB. I can't remember where I finally left it, but I'll double check.

If you turn more than 3 times, does it fall out or something?

Title: Re: Trouble idling after warmup
Post by SALB on 06/23/17 at 13:29:11

Yes, there is a danger of losing the screw more than three turns out. Be careful that you very lightly bottom it out when you screw it in so you don't damage it. More info can be found in the tech section.