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Message started by kojones on 05/31/17 at 13:15:14

Title: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 05/31/17 at 13:15:14

I have a strange problem, gears work fine when engine is cold, but after a while I can't downshift from second gear and quite soon the third gear is the lowest available. It's a PITA in city, but manageable.

I drained the oil today and checked the gear change mechanism under the small cover behind the front pulley, all parts were there as they're supposed to. Replaced the oil with lower viscosity, no help.

Any similar experiences or suggestions what could be causing this?

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by verslagen1 on 05/31/17 at 13:30:14

The shift arm needs to be pointed straight down.
Check if the lever needs lubrication.
And yes, it can shift wonkie when it's time for an oil change.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by batman on 05/31/17 at 13:48:31

You might want to make sure the rod between the pedal and the shift arm isn't flexing or bent, as that would allow shifting up ,but hinder down shifts.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by stewmills on 05/31/17 at 14:00:17

To clarify your issue, does the shift lever go down smoothly and turn the spindle as it should and the gears just don't change internally, or is the shift lever just hard to move down with your foot with gentle pressure.

If the lever moves smoothly, then it it likely not an external issue. If the lever won't move easily, it is likely an external linkage issue such as a bent linkage or just dirty linkage that needs to be greased, etc. at the little ball joints that are (should be) covered by the little rubber covers on each end.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/17 at 14:36:39

A flexing shift rod can do that. If you've had to Stomp it into first, it's probably bowed.
Oil choices are out there, but the common Go To oil that the old guard uses is Rotella .

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/01/17 at 07:00:54

504354554A4741434817260 wrote:

The shift arm needs to be pointed straight down.
Check if the lever needs lubrication.
And yes, it can shift wonkie when it's time for an oil change.

Ok, the shift arm was pointing southwest, hope that repositioning it fixed the issue. There's quite a bit axial play in the shaft, I'll get rid of that with an extra washer if the issue reappears.

The shift lever feels firm when the issue occurs, not allowing any movement down.

Thank you all for your input!

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by stewmills on 06/01/17 at 07:11:08

Not sure what you mean about axial play (in the main shift lever, or on the shift rod coming from the engine case?), but make sure you aren't putting something in a bind that is intended to have a little freedom of movement.

Considering that the end of the adjusting rod has ball joint ends, that is going to twist a little but that is ok so long as the rod isn't bent. You just need to grease those ball joints real good (people often ignore and overlook those), and that coupled with your repositioning of the shift arm, you may be in business.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by verslagen1 on 06/01/17 at 07:39:07

There was an issue with the 4spds of something happening with the shift mechanism.
Doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/01/17 at 10:51:15

The play is in the shift rod coming from the engine. There's a 1mm thick washer from the factory, measured 1.2mm of play with that. Kicking the shift rod in when stuck gets the transmission working every time, so replacing that 1mm washer with a 1.9mm thick washer.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/01/17 at 12:47:08

140710110E0305070C53620 wrote:

There was an issue with the 4spds of something happening with the shift mechanism.
Doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Wonder if mine is a 4 speed, I'm not sure if I've found the 5th gear or not ;D

I've spent year and a half repairing the bike, been driving it now for three days.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by batman on 06/02/17 at 09:08:31

You should be able to see the shift pattern stamped into the side case ,1N234 or 1N2345 We can't tell for sure, you'll need to look as 88 to 94 models were not sold in the U.S. The 5 speed appeared with the reintroduction here in 95 .

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/02/17 at 11:27:34

595A4F565A550F033B0 wrote:

You should be able to see the shift pattern stamped into the side case ,1N234 or 1N2345 We can't tell for sure, you'll need to look as 88 to 94 models were not sold in the U.S.

I found the 5th today :D

Mine is a 2001, but wouldn't surprise me if the motor has been replaced.
I greased the ball joints, works slightly better but still no sugar. Jerking the foot lever seems to help, so my shift rod might be twisted. Tried to take it off to check, maybe some another day I have more luck and motivation.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by batman on 06/02/17 at 13:13:39

the rod has left hand and right hand threads on the ends , loosen the locking nuts and spin the rod ,one way shortens ,the other way to lengthens and removes. rolling it on a flat surface with a light behind it,should show you any bending or warping. Does you clutch disengage fully?

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/17 at 18:39:54

Have you had to Stomp on it to get it in first?

Or did I miss your answer?

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/04/17 at 12:56:51

283731362B2C1D2D1D25373B70420 wrote:

Have you had to Stomp on it to get it in first?

Or did I miss your answer?

First goes in fine. Noticed today that I have to lift the foot lever a bit and then push it down, then the gears engage smoothly and without any problems.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by Kenny G on 06/04/17 at 13:09:22

Jones,

It sounds like the linkage needs lubed and adjusted.

Kenny G :-/

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/04/17 at 13:48:05

042A210C3D2E3C274F0 wrote:

Jones,

It sounds like the linkage needs lubed and adjusted.

Kenny G :-/

Just lubed it a few days ago. Going to think it as a feature for now 8-)

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/07/17 at 14:01:08

Took the rod off, it's very, very slightly warped. Gave it a bit more length, we'll see if that helps.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by TheHowler on 06/07/17 at 14:03:09

I have problems shifting down whenever I'm moving too fast for a gear. Example, shifting to 2 when I'm going ~18 mph. I shift down better when moving slow. If that helps...

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/17 at 14:09:43

Throttle syncs the engine/transmission.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by batman on 06/08/17 at 22:50:22

If your seeing a warp it may be flexing ,I'd replace ,( Ron Ayers,ROD 25525-21E50 $7.86)

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/17 at 03:56:20

I don't remember the answer to

Have you Ever had to Stomp it into gear?

First, no, the bike Never Requires impact to get it in first. That's operator error. The clutch is your friend, spin the transmission guts, then it will drop in.

And, if it's been stomped, that rod is probably flexing.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/09/17 at 23:44:56

56494F4855526353635B49450E3C0 wrote:

Sorry, I thought you mean if I have to stomp it everytime to get it on first.

No I have not, I know that transmissions don't work by using lots of force, I've ruined one 70's Yamaha that way when I was a young boy.

There's titanium rods for sale in UK, with Finnish postal prices there's not much difference with the OEM rod ::)

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by Eegore on 06/10/17 at 08:11:45

"First, no, the bike Never Requires impact to get it in first. That's operator error. The clutch is your friend, spin the transmission guts, then it will drop in."

Spin transmission guts as in roll forward/backward with your feet?

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/17 at 08:20:11

That's A way, but to let the clutch out just enough to start to engage, pull in, apply gentle downforce on shifter..

I don't remember How I managed to get stopped, in traffic, in a high gear, but I did.. And you Can rip down to first using the clutch and gas and shifter in mere seconds if you know how. Driving big trucks and shifting without a clutch helps.
In the Trailbreaking threads there is a clip showing the hands of the rider as he shifts. Upshift, no clutch,downshift, clutch.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by kojones on 06/11/17 at 01:46:26

I think I'll replace the rod and the centering spring inside the gear shifter cover, might as well go there when replacing the front pulley with the Kawasaki pulley.

Title: Re: Can't downshift when warm
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/17 at 06:44:37

You'll be the first to mess with the spring. The rod is not uncommon.